kaiwen338 owns me 1 beer, note taken. I was standing next to my good friend from Australia. 
Don’t glorify the west. I went for Korean BBQ the other day. Due to health and safety regulations in the UK you are not allowed to grill your own food, and have to have a trained Korean do it for you. We split one raw beef and egg (minced beef) starter (foul) one Kalbi and one Bulgogi (again both in minced beef format) main course and one small dish of Kimchi, and half an onion (they had no pepper, or pumpkin) and 2 330ml beers each. £38.60. I could have shat a lung! Thats what, 2400 nt? I could eat all day every day in the Teppanyaki place on JinChung in Taichung for a week and not spend 2400 nt.
Noticing other people and being considerate is a learned act. It takes practice. It doesn’t just happen automatically. It comes from a sense of shame and a certain amount of awareness.
If I am not paying attention, lost in thought, and mindlessly allow the door to slam on the poor person behind me, then I feel shame. I feel like shit when I am in someones way, or inconvenience people. I am often rude simply from a lack of mindfulness of the situation and I honestly try hard not to be. It takes an effort to notice other people, and often the best of intentions fall short in execution. It is a learned behavior that takes practice. Good parents in the west spend lots of time slowly teaching their children to be aware of other people and the kids need to practice, its not an automatic response just because they are westerners.
What I often see here, is:
A blindness for other people,
and clearly,
No shame at all.
Let’s take a specific and common occurrence:
The man or woman that parks so nobody else can get in/out and/or takes up multiple spots. From my perspective, this shows a clear case of not noticing the tons of other people around, and an obvious ‘who cares about others’ attitude. Now, if you were to confront this person, chances are there will be zero shame, no sense of ‘red face’ or of doing anything wrong.
For those on the other side of this debate, please explain this to me. It is irrelevant if this person gave money to help Typhoon victims, that is a separate issue completely. I am interested in hearing how this person actually does notice people and is not rude. From where I am standing these two are incongruent.
He/she either doesn’t notice, or notices and doesn’t care (is rude).
[quote=“Homey”]Noticing other people and being considerate is a learned act. It takes practice. It doesn’t just happen automatically. It comes from a sense of shame and a certain amount of awareness.
If I am not paying attention, lost in thought, and mindlessly allow the door to slam on the poor person behind me, then I feel shame. I feel like shit when I am in someones way, or inconvenience people. I am often rude simply from a lack of mindfulness of the situation and I honestly try hard not to be. It takes an effort to notice other people, and often the best of intentions fall short in execution. It is a learned behavior that takes practice. Good parents in the west spend lots of time slowly teaching their children to be aware of other people and the kids need to practice, its not an automatic response just because they are westerners.
What I often see here, is:
A blindness for other people,
and clearly,
No shame at all.
Let’s take a specific and common occurrence:
The man or woman that parks so nobody else can get in/out and/or takes up multiple spots. From my perspective, this shows a clear case of not noticing the tons of other people around, and an obvious ‘who cares about others’ attitude. Now, if you were to confront this person, chances are there will be zero shame, no sense of ‘red face’ or of doing anything wrong.
For those on the other side of this debate, please explain this to me. It is irrelevant if this person gave money to help Typhoon victims, that is a separate issue completely. I am interested in hearing how this person actually does notice people and is not rude. From where I am standing these two are incongruent.
He/she either doesn’t notice, or notices and doesn’t care (is rude).[/quote]
Of course it’s rude. It just doesn’t sum of the moral character of the person who did it, and certainly less the society that she belongs to.
Some really bizarre posts here, and not from Sandman. (For a change!)
For the record, if I pay someone to give me what I want then I expect them to listen to what I tell them I want. That’s different from expecting random strangers to accept my world view. Why bring that old topic into a different debate? Weird?
In the thread I quoted from, I disagreed with the bit quoted. I defended the right of Taiwanese people to hog their tables as long as they want. But the observation prompted me to think about the basic premise of what is polite and what is rude.
Pushing in front of someone, standing still in a transit area, doing anything that indicates you really have no interest in the fact that you’re being selfish is… well, rude. It relegates the other people to a subordinate role in your me-centric world. It’s disrespectful.
I’m interested in the fact that Taiwanese people obviously don’t see it that way, and an enlightened explanation from an expert like Muzha Man would be helpful.
In the meantime, being disrespectful is rude. Assuming that you’re more important than everyone else is rude. If recognising that someone is rude is doesn’t say anything about their moral character then it certainly says something about their outlook. ie their outlook is rude and selfish. But that outlook is perfectly normal within their society, so the observation that rudeness is normal here must say something about the society.
So at the risk of incurring the wrath of the mighty MM, let me just recap: in this regard Taiwanese people (as a culture) are rude and selfish, but this doesn’t mean that they are not exemplary human beings in other regards.
Why do some people have to be so stupid about valid observations regarding differences in culture? It’s as if noting that, for instance, it rains a lot (a similarly unchangeable phenomena) equates to a blind hatred of all things Taiwanese. It doesn’t. But blind defence of all things Taiwanese, in defiance of observed facts, makes one look mighty unreasonable.
Because, my long-haired friend, it happens everywhere. People as a rule are rude and selfish. I, for example, could not believe how rude the mouthbreathers in Inverness were last time. Stopping at the top of escalators, buggering about at the checkout till, not stopping their cars at the zebra crossing – you name it, they were doing it. Don’t EVEN get me started about trying to get a drink in a pub! You and me, we’re from a different age – the age of Brilliantine, Horlicks, and a rattlingly blowy day out by the seaside.
“After you, madam!”
“No, no, after YOU!”
“No please, I insist!”
“Oh, very well. I must say, you’re a devilish handsome young man! And SO polite! Quite a breath of fresh air!”
We’re dinosaurs, you and I.
sands, it jars beyond belief when you first go back, or are visiting. You appreciate the differences and the pros and cons, after a while.
No, it doesn’t happen everywhere, and people as a rule are not rude and selfish. People are not rude and selfish, and cannot possibly all be painted with that same brush. Sure, there are rude and selfish people all over the world, but it’s the exception, not the rule. Chinese culture, for whatever reason (some blame Confucius) has devolved to the point where rudeness is not only the rule, but is completely accepted, and as this thread proves, defended.
Chinese culture, for whatever reason (some blame Confucius) has devolved to the point where rudeness is not only the rule, but is completely accepted, and as this thread proves, defended.[/quote]
I gotta weigh in with my 
here. I agree with Mr Homey and Mr Loretta. I come from a time and place where rudeness will get you a swift smack on the heed from your parents. I try to be civil and polite at all times (unless I’m out on the piss or at a FHH).
Some fucknut parked his scooter right in front of me today as I was walking down the street. He could have waited one second while I passed, but he didn’t. He had a glazed thousand-yard stare in his ugly little eyes so I knew that the vile little twat hadn’t even noticed me. Weird thing, I walked around his scooter, smiled and carried on. Seven years ago I would have hauled him off of his girly-bike and cracked his skull.
Maybe I’m getting old. Maybe I’ve become assimilated. Or maybe I just don’t give a fuck anymore.
People are not noting that it rains a lot here (a truism). They are noting that the Taiwanese are the stupiest people inthe world to live in a rainy climate when obviously around the world there are places that are so much sunnier.
People are not noting that it rains a lot here (a truism). They are noting that the Taiwanese are the stupiest people inthe world to live in a rainy climate when obviously around the world there are places that are so much sunnier.[/quote]
But they’re not noting that either. They are not talking about intrinsic characteristics of the Taiwanese. They’re talking about learned behaviors (ie. the western version of politeness) and how the culture in Taiwan does not seem to emphasize learning them. Kids are not born polite, they learn it (hopefully) from their parents and society.
They’re noting that Taiwanese don’t give a crap if it’s hot, damp, rainy, and humid all the time, so they think this is a great climate to live in, even if other people think they’re nuts for liking it.
I do disagree with those bringing morality into it though.
Going off-topic, and having some fun here, rarely a day passes when I don’t hve the following conversation:
Me: lovely day!
TWer: It’s so hot.
Me: That’s what I mean. Great, isn’t it?
TWer: But you’re a UKainian, you should like the cold.
Me: Why do you think my ancestors sailed all around the world? We were following the sun. (That, and the food is crap at home.) You’re from Taiwan, you should like the heat.
TWer: It’s too hot.
Me: Oh, for fuck’s sake. If you don’t like it here, why don’t you go and live somewhere else? I think the weather’s great. And get out of my way, arsehole.
You have a seriously weird understanding of what people are saying. Have you considered getting help. I, for one, would appreciate an explanation for why, last night alone, I was twice forced to make way for some idiot driving a scooter at speed on the pavement. We all take short cuts, but in western countries we are taught to make way for pedestrians - especially when we are in the space set aside for them. Please enlighten me as to why Taiwanese people appear to see things differently.
And as for the stupidest peple in the world, that would have to be the vikings, or maybe the eskimoes. Those people settled in some really stupid places.
Loretta, our paths cross so seldom on Fcom I haven’t the slightest clue why you are always so defensive and uncivil to me when they do. If I have ever done anything to piss you off it was so many years ago that your continuing to begrudge me for it is pathetic. It’s also likely though a good indication of why so many insignificant events in your daily life get exaggerated. Let things go.
As for this thread, I disagree with what you and others are saying. I think it is dangerous to let the kind of negativity expressed in this thread to stay un-contested on an online forum for the expat community. People need hope and a sense of perspective as much as they need a venue to bitch about the crap of daily life.
I think he’s simply disagreeing with you.
Regarding anybody saying we can’t say bad things about the Taiwanese because they’ve just had the typhoon. Following that logic, that means nobody should have ever said anything about “dumbass” Americans for perceived stupidity in the last fews years because they had Katrina. We all know that didn’t happen.
Chinese culture, for whatever reason (some blame Confucius) has devolved to the point where rudeness is not only the rule, but is completely accepted, and as this thread proves, defended.[/quote]
I gotta weigh in with my here. I agree with Mr Homey and Mr Loretta. I come from a time and place where rudeness will get you a swift smack on the heed from your parents. I try to be civil and polite at all times (unless I’m out on the piss or at a FHH).
Some fucknut parked his scooter right in front of me today as I was walking down the street. He could have waited one second while I passed, but he didn’t. He had a glazed thousand-yard stare in his ugly little eyes so I knew that the vile little twat hadn’t even noticed me. Weird thing, I walked around his scooter, smiled and carried on. Seven years ago I would have hauled him off of his girly-bike and cracked his skull.
Maybe I’m getting old. Maybe I’ve become assimilated. Or maybe I just don’t give a fuck anymore.[/quote]
I visit many Asian countries but only China and then a little bit Taiwan is the ones that i feel people are selfish which brings the rudeness.
Have you seen Japan, Korea even Indonesia not at all bad. I have to see Vietnam to make sure if only China and Taiwan or there are other countries with similar culture.
I think there are lots of nice people in Taiwan. If you think about how many people work as volunteers here, it’s really very encouraging. There are many good hearts out there. I meet nice and friendly people all the time.
Well, there are selfish people too. For example those who dump their used and useless clothes and expired food products by donating them to flood victims. That’s disgusting.
But anyway, as long as people join TzuChi and other organizations doing charity work, I think the people of Taiwan aren’t worse than those in other countries.
Instead of complaining, we should all lead by example. Let’s all be really nice an friendly to each other. 
Helping out your own in dire straits is not an indicator of ‘goodness’. Rabbits do that.
People are essentially evil, as well as essentially good. We tend to notice others’ particular negative traits and assign them to the ‘other’ group depending on what’s going on in our head, at the time. These are our sticking points, in life, and we all have them. It’s not complex.
Yes, the Taiwanese are overall a bit daft when it comes to consideration for others in terms of physical movement. Yes, this is no doubt because they weren’t taught this as kids, so they just don’t see the world the same way as we do. But why weren’t they taught this as kids? I think there are two reasons: one is that, coming from east Asia, the idea of not being in somebody’s way made much less sense than it did in less crowded places like Europe. It was inherently difficult not to be in someone’s way, so this ideal is less important here. The second reason is that people are inherently uninterested in strangers here, something we privileged WGR might be forgiven for overlooking. If you are IN (my classmate, work-team partner, family member) you are super important, if you are OUT, you basically don’t exist. This is not in itself more selfish than the west, just differently allocated consideration.
But still, people standing in passgeways, flailing about like spastic monkeys in supermarket aisles etc pisses me off almost everyday. My reaction is to bump into them - with an apology of course, or to lurch menacingly towards them so they get out of my way - always purely by accident, of course! They don’t usually mind, because it’s not on purpose!
[quote=“nazmikarakoc”]
I visit many Asian countries but only China and then a little bit Taiwan is the ones that i feel people are selfish which brings the rudeness.
Have you seen Japan, Korea even Indonesia not at all bad. I have to see Vietnam to make sure if only China and Taiwan or there are other countries with similar culture.[/quote]
Followin are my opinions, but I want to weight in that if we compare the lowest common denominantor (scallies, Taike, orang prebang…) I would state the following
Indo - parental socializer
v. polite, lived there 2 years and never had an issue, except in “westernized Bali”, in fact they are some of the most thoughful ppl in the world. Saying that one of the reasons they never touch you with the left hand is that from about 3months old the mothers slap their children’s Left hand if it is used to grab anything, it becomes intrinsic - as argued above this is sth not occuring in TW, or if it is, they have a different ideal of politeness. This is sorely missing from TW with ppl thinking 8yo kids deserve to sit on priority seats… when I was that age I would have been told to stand up to let my mum/gran sit down, my dad (and all “healthy” middle aged and class guys) would never sit
japan - societal socializer
also polite, but in a funny way because if you break the rules you are punished. This is not acceptable to other ‘liberal’ societies, but I think this is essential for continue societal progression and is sorely missing from TW. If someone does something rude and obnoxious they get away with it.
UK -?
Note that in the Uk an youth had made certain bus routes so intolerable that the bus company threatened to close them since it was costing more to undo the vandelism than they made off susidies. One old guy, then his friends stood up and started dilling out royal rollickings to the little tykes and the routes were cleaned up and became profitable so they retained the service - this is a key. If noone stand up, everyone suffers.
Secondly, instead of whinging DO STH, if you hate scooters parked on the pavement drive around and find a spot, dont fall to the lowest denominator. “people in glass houses”, “:pot kettle…”
In this regard, TW is suffering from the regular “post industrial” breakdown of societal values caused by class and financial segregation. If the “educated” lock themselves away in cars and do not “educate” others, there are no role models of behaviour to follow and correct and bad behaviour becomes normal