Split from [url=Bush's response to Katrina/New Orleans (Part 3) - #38 by Jaboney response to Katrina/New Orleans (Part 3)[/url]
You read wrong. Rich people and middle class people [i]are[/i] being arrested and having their weapons taken. I posted the following yesterday in Part 2. And what is it with the NRA that so terrifies you? :loco:
You read wrong. Rich people and middle class people [i]are[/i] being arrested and having their weapons taken. I posted the following yesterday in Part 2. And what is it with the NRA that so terrifies you? :loco: [/quote] No, I didn’t read wrong, but I’ll be happy to learn that that one report was wrong. (Gee, what are the chances of reading one misinformed report online? 
)
What makes you think that the NRA terrifies me? I’m not a fan of guns, and think that anti-government elements of American history and culture have done more harm than good, but while I’m occasionally frustrated, I’m hardly terrified.
[quote=“Jaboney”]
What makes you think that the NRA terrifies me? I’m not a fan of guns, and think that anti-government elements of American history and culture have done more harm than good, but while I’m occasionally frustrated, I’m hardly terrified.[/quote]
I think you are slightly confused. Are you really saying you believe the NRA (one of the most patriotic, pro-government organizations in the United States) is anti-government???
Right. Everyone in the NRA feels that way about the government? There isn’t a broad streak of anti-government sentiment within the organization, and the executive vp’s letter that sparked this from George H. W. Bush was what, misunderstood? [quote=“George H. W. Bush”] May 3, 1995
Dear Mr. Washington,
I was outraged when, even in the wake of the Oklahoma City tragedy,
Mr. Wayne LaPierre,executive vice president of N.R.A., defended his
attack on federal agents as “jack-booted thugs.” To attack Secret
Service agents or ATF people or any government law enforcement people
as “wearing Nazi bucket helmets and black storm trooper uniforms”
wanting to “attack law abiding citizens” is a vicious slander on good
people.
Al Whicher, who served on my 1/8United States Secret Service) detail
when I was Vice President and President, was killed in Oklahoma City.
He was no Nazi. He was a kind man, a loving parent, a man dedicated to
serving his country – and serve it well he did.
In 1993, I attended the wake for A.T.F. agent Steve Willis, another
dedicated officer who did his duty. I can assure you that this
honorable man, killed by weird cultists, was no Nazi.
John Magaw, who used to head the U.S.S.S. and now heads A.T.F., is one
of the most principled, decent men I have ever known. He would be the
last to condone the kind of illegal behavior your ugly letter charges.
The same is true for the F.B.I.'s able Director Louis Freeh. I
appointed Mr. Freeh to the Federal Bench. His integrity and honor are
beyond question.
Both John Magaw and Judge Freeh were in office when I was President.
They both now serve in the current administration. They both have
badges. Neither of them would ever give the government’s “go ahead to
harass, intimidate, even murder law abiding citizens.” (Your words)
I am a gun owner and an avid hunter. Over the years I have agreed with
most of N.R.A.'s objectives, particularly your educational and
training efforts, and your fundamental stance in favor of owning guns.
However, your broadside against Federal agents deeply offends my own
sense of decency and honor; and it offends my concept of service to
country. It indirectly slanders a wide array of government law
enforcement officials, who are out there, day and night, laying their
lives on the line for all of us.
You have not repudiated Mr. LaPierre’sunwarranted attack. Therefore, I
resign as a Life Member of N.R.A., said resignation to be effective
upon your receipt of this letter. Please remove my name from your
membership list.
Sincerely,
George Bush[/quote]
The NRA’s response can be found here. Disagree with me if you like, but confused, I am not.
If you believe all governments and their policies are good 100% of the time well…why are you complaining about Bush? 
America has a long history of fear of big, dictatorial governments. Our country and culture is based on anti-governement forces rebelling against a lawful government. Something which is impossible without weapons. This is ingrained in most Americans. Your country did not rebel and does not have this cultural/political heritage and thus you will never be able to understand it.
And BTW, the guys in the video I posted above? As far as I’m concerned they are “jack-booted thugs”.
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]If you believe all governments and their policies are good 100% of the time well…why are you complaining about Bush?
America has a long history of fear of big, dictatorial governments. Our country and culture is based on anti-governement forces rebelling against a lawful government. Something which is impossible without weapons. This is ingrained in most Americans. Your country did not rebel and does not have this cultural/political heritage and thus you will never be able to understand it.[/quote]
sigh I don’t believe all governments and their policies are good 100% of the time. Where’d you get that idea?
And I understand the history and culture you to which you refer, which is why I wrote that I “think that anti-government elements of American history and culture have done more harm than good,” which I find occasionally frustrating. No doubt that history, culture and mythology has done good… but harm as well. I understand this well. If you think understanding is impossible without direct experience, why study history?
But you do study history, don’t you? I’m sure you know this gem of Machiavelli’s: “The chief foundations of all states… are good laws and good arms. And as there cannot be good laws where there are not good arms… where there are good arms there must be good laws.” He was partly right at the time, but is wrong now, else why would the heavily armed Soviet Union have had such poor laws, or the heavily armed citizens of Afghanistan still have such poor laws?
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]
America has a long history of fear of big, dictatorial governments. Our country and culture is based on anti-governement forces rebelling against a lawful government. Something which is impossible without weapons. This is ingrained in most Americans. Your country did not rebel and does not have this cultural/political heritage and thus you will never be able to understand it. [/quote]
But that attitude is not what the neo cons of DC believe in.
This kind of thought is not what the neo cons want in the US.
The constitution is being destroyed and the neo cons will happily continue to rewrite the rules to suit themselves and no one else.
They don’t want people protesting, they use words like unpatriotic, when someone critisizes or questions the government.
The founding fathers are turning in their graves.
I really can’t understand how ‘republicans’ are attracted to this new breed that are in the white house.
Is it becuase there is no alternative?
That is what the US government wants everywhere. A military police in control.
For years they have been getting the public used to this with constant inages of these ‘jack booted thugs’ on TV in cities all over the US.
A precident has been set. Any disaster in the US will allow them to disarm everyone in that area. And would the government allow the people to arm themselves again?
I wouldn’t think so.
Ohhhhhhit the neo cons! The neo cons are coming the neo cons are coming! Run for your lives!
Why don’t you get a new script. Reruns are sooooooo boring.
Right. Everyone in the NRA feels that way about the government? There isn’t a broad streak of anti-government sentiment within the organization, and the executive vp’s letter that sparked this from George H. W. Bush was what, misunderstood? [quote=“George H. W. Bush”] May 3, 1995
Dear Mr. Washington,
I was outraged when… Please remove my name from your
membership list.
Sincerely,
George Bush[/quote]
The NRA’s response can be found here. Disagree with me if you like, but confused, I am not.[/quote]
You are taking things out of context. The NRA was, and is, opposed to the jackbooted thugs of the BATF and certain police departments (several in New Jersey including the State Patrol, Chicago Police Department, etc. etc.), among other groups. These groups are primarily composed of sick, twisted, subhuman individuals who frankly deserve to be imprisoned or executed for crimes against humanity (after a suitable fair trial to screen out any innocents, of course). Any true patriot would say the same. If George Herbert Walker Bush wished to defend them, he was free to do so, as can anyone else who so desires, but this merely reveals their regimented jackbooted-thug-like thinking and lack of patriotism.
The BATF has quite deliberately entrapped people, engaged in blatantly false testimony, issued rulings contrary to its chartered purpose because it wants to expand its powers, and even stomped people’s pets to death during illegal searches. Defending their record is like defending Pol Pot’s.
Jaboney, I strongly recommend that you read John Ross’s novel Unintended Consequences, as well as perhaps Vin Suprynowicz’s novel The Black Arrow, in order to comprehend the issues and history. If you don’t do so, odds are that you simply do not understand in the slightest what you are talking about.
P.S. – In case you think I’m being sarcastic, I’m not. BATF should have been disbanded at least two decades ago. More so during the Clinton years, but still true today, they are an out-of-control agency.
[quote=“MaPoSquid”]You are taking things out of context. The NRA was, and is, opposed to the jackbooted thugs of the BATF and certain police departments (several in New Jersey including the State Patrol, Chicago Police Department, etc. etc.), among other groups. These groups are primarily composed of sick, twisted, subhuman individuals who frankly deserve to be imprisoned or executed for crimes against humanity (after a suitable fair trial to screen out any innocents, of course). Any true patriot would say the same.[/quote] 
Ok, MaPoSquid, you tell me what the proper context is. I thought it was guns, anti-government elements of American history and culture, and whether these have collectively done more harm than good. The BATF and certain police departments are branches of the government. Your post certainly smacks of the kind of “I love my country but fear my government,” sentiment I had in mind, but if I’m off-base, please do educate me. And not with novels, thanks. I quite enjoy distopian narratives, but I keep them on a separate shelf from those I read on political theory.
Pot. Kettle.
Pot. Kettle.[/quote] 
Alright everybody, isn’t this is the point in the Star Trek episode when everyone figures out that the crew of the Enterprise has been infected with an alien virus that’s taking over and assimilating their minds? I have a suspicion that any day now, jdsmith will reveal his true identity as queen of the mind-bending Borg.
Resistance is futile.
queen???
NRA life member since 1962. 12th birthday gift from my Father.
It is one of the most diverse, both politically and philosophically, groups in extant in the USA.
Its history is of education - [url=http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/fact.asp]"Eddie Eagle GunSafe
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]NRA life member since 1962. 12th birthday gift from my Father.
It is one of the most diverse, both politically and philosophically, groups in extant in the USA.
Its history is of education - [url=http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/fact.asp]"Eddie Eagle GunSafe
[quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”][quote=“TainanCowboy”][The NRA] is one of the most diverse, both politically and philosophically, groups in extant in the USA…
And remember - People pay to join the NRA.
People who so regularly disparage the NRA have no idea what they are talking about.
Just puppeting the usual party line. Simply displaying their lack of knowledge.[/quote]
For probably the first time, I find myself agreeing with TainanCowboy. I am also a NRA life member, and my membership wasn’t a gift, I paid for it myself. And my political views on most things (especially the Bush administration) are the complete opposite of TC. So yes, the NRA is composed of a diverse group of people, and trying to categorize them into a single “political philosophy” would be a mistake.[/quote]
Oh, I completely agree, it’s a diverse group. Which is why I questioned “everyone in the NRA feels that way about the government?” Your statement also speaks directly to my second point: “There isn’t a broad streak of anti-government sentiment within the organization…” A broad streak, not unicolour. That statement isn’t at all controversial, is it? And the letter I posted was written by Bush I, so it isn’t “the usual party line” is it? It also acknowedges the educational efforts of the NRA, and I didn’t edit that out to emphasize my point… so, I hope I’m not being accused of displaying a lack of knowledge or trotting out the old party line. As for paying for membership, whooptido. People will pay to join all sorts of organizations. That indicates a degree of dedication or respect for the organization, nothing more.
Funny, all this because I noted that one online article stated that the authorities were confiscating weapons, but not from private security guards, nor from wealthy landowners. That’s it. Then Comrade Stalin started spinning the NRA-patriotism line. Which brings us here. I’m sure large numbers of NRA members are patriots. I’m also sure that large numbers of NRA members subscribe to anti-government sentiment, and that NRA rhetoric sometimes plays to that part of the membership. Is any of this controversial?
[quote=“Jaboney”]
Funny, all this because I noted that one online article stated that the authorities were confiscating weapons, but not from private security guards, nor from wealthy landowners. That’s it. Then Comrade Stalin started spinning the NRA-patriotism line. [/quote]
Give me a break. You quote a report that you can’t find and link to and then you just had to give your little swipe at the NRA. At least was was able to back my post with an actual news video.
And when I called you on it, you continued with your line about “anti-goverment forces”.
And it’s nice we had some of those “anti-government forces” to kick the Brits out 200 years ago. Too bad Canada has never been able to develop any, isn’t it?
:America:
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“Jaboney”]
Funny, all this because I noted that one online article stated that the authorities were confiscating weapons, but not from private security guards, nor from wealthy landowners. That’s it. Then Comrade Stalin started spinning the NRA-patriotism line. [/quote]Give me a break. You quote a report that you can’t find and link to and then you just had to give your little swipe at the NRA. At least was was able to back my post with an actual news video. [/quote]
Give you break? Give me a break. Here’s what was written:
You read wrong. Rich people and middle class people [i]are[/i] being arrested and having their weapons taken. I posted the following yesterday in Part 2. And what is it with the NRA that so terrifies you? :loco: [/quote] Now, what–if anything–in that suggested that anything about the NRA terrifies me? Nothing! So what, if not spin, was your response?
Again, I wrote “Maybe that last bit will sooth things over at the NRA?” Was I wrong to assume that the NRA would be (ha ha) up-in-arms over these confiscations? Nope. Remember the one online article I read and forgot the link for (which I acknowledged)? Here it is: NYT - New Orleans Begins Confiscating Firearms as Water Recedes Was I wrong to suspect that this story would be of concern to the NRA? Nope, here’s the same article, linked to through the NRA’s website.[quote=“New York Times”]NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 8 - Waters were receding across this flood-beaten city today as police officers began confiscating weapons, including legally registered firearms, from civilians in preparation for a mass forced evacuation of the residents still living here.
No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns or other firearms, said P. Edwin Compass III, the superintendent of police. “Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons,” he said.
But that order apparently does not apply to hundreds of security guards hired by businesses and some wealthy individuals to protect property. The guards, employees of private security companies like Blackwater, openly carry M-16’s and other assault rifles. Mr. Compass said that he was aware of the private guards, but that the police had no plans to make them give up their weapons. [/quote]
When you called me on it? When you called me on what? On not posting the link? I originally wrote: "I read one report, can’t find the link right now." So what were you calling me on? You brought up my fictional terror of the NRA, I responded by clarifying that I don’t have a problem with the NRA, only with that part of the NRA that subscribes to a particularly goofy political program. So what’s your beef? If you’d assume the best and do your best to understand what’s being posted–I do my part by doing my best to be clear–we’d probably have a better, deeper dialogue and learn a lot more from each other.
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]And it’s nice we had some of those “anti-government forces” to kick the Brits out 200 years ago. Too bad Canada has never been able to develop any, isn’t it?[/quote] You’ve never read Chewycorns stuff, have you?