Is anyone currently atending the Chinese Learning Center at NTNU? My cousin is a Professor there and is trying to convince me to come for 6 months (versus my usual 2 week trip) and I was curious if anyone felt the program was worth the time away. I am in my 2nd year of studies here (Mandarin) but my writing is still marginal at best, he believes 6 months would really benefit me. My only concern is resigning from my current job and taking 6 months off to study, have to make sure I will come home with a huge improvement in my speaking, but most importantly writing skills. Any feedback appreciated!
I don’t think NTNU’s program will really improve your writing unless you take a specific writing course … they didn’t have anything like that when I went there a couple years ago though. I got my B.A. in Chinese in the States and then did 9 months at NTNU’s Mandarin Training Center here, and my writing was still crap. I had to learn how to write on my own, mostly just from reading lots and lots of stuff and then practicing, having my Chinese co-workers correct my mistakes, etc. Now I’m able to write academic articles and my M.A. thesis in Chinese with little to no problem (now it’s just my English writing that has become crap!)
I have to go with what Littlebuddah said. The program focuses on getting you to speak rather than write. Although saying than, we did a lot of writing everyday.
If you are abroad and can afford it, then I think it is a good idea to come over - this way you are forcing yourself into practising the language outside of school. This will improve your overall confidence and understanding of the langauge.
Hope this helps.
L
There’s no doubt that you will benefit from coming to Taiwan for six months, if it’s to attend NTNU or somewhere else. If you have studied for two years in the states – assuming you dont have prior experience with mandarin – I doubt that you’re getting anywhere close to being a fluent speaker. Thus, unless you look like a Chinese person it would be best to avoid Taipei city and go somewhere else. Also, regarding NTNU, you could get stuck with a lousy teacher, so that’s a gamble as well.
The normal classes are between 8 to 10 students. It’s impossible to really practice your Mandarin in class. If you take the 3 students class then it might work.
Thanks for all the replies. I have been studying here in the States for two years, and my speaking abilities have definitely improved, I just can’t grasp the writing. I will look into the 3 person classes. Thanks again
When you say you can’t grasp the writing, somehow I am assuming you mean “writing the characters” and not “writing articles, letters, etc.” There’s a big difference.
If it were just a matter of forming the characters, you could use a computer (like I always do ) so you don’t have the problem of forgetting how to write each character. But you will probably find that the things you write get various (often strange) reactions from Taiwanese…
If your Mandarin is at a high enough level where it’s just a matter of learning the style of writing in Chinese, then maybe you could get a frequent one-on-one tutor – a grad student in the Chinese department or someone who has been recommended as being a good writer (you might actually want someone in another department to avoid some of the fancier stuff!) Then it’s like Little Budda says. (Although if you say you can write academic articles with little difficulty in Chinese, LB, my response is: )
I would suggest you look into some of the programs in China I went NTNU for a year, and felt it was/has been the biggest waste of money. The taiwanese style of teaching isn’t excatly proactive, so learning to write or improve one’s writing would be result of your own study habits…Good luck
Sounds like a good idea actually, Namahottie.
I got the impression on my last visit to the Mainland (last year) that there’s a sort of psychological difference. Foreigners studying Chinese in the mainland are expected to master it – really well. There didn’t seem to be this “oh you could never achieve that level” thing going around. And you see and hear of quite a few foreigners who have really done very, very well in Chinese in the mainland. In Taiwan, no matter where I went, I always kind of had the feeling that people didn’t expect non-Chinese to be able to learn Chinese well. It might just be my subjective impression, but for what it’s worth…plus, if you can handle the conditions, the cost of living in China is lower.
Well, thanks for the feedback. In my case, I have relatives all over Taiwan, so the cost of living would definitley be low, comsidering I would most likely be staying with one (or more) of them! In addition, since only 2-3 of my relatives speak English, it would be safe to assume that my vocabulary would improve. Lastly, I do not get many chances to see my Grandmother, adn with her getting older I feel that this would be a really great opportunity to connect with her. I will take your comments on the quality of schooling in consideration, but I am 99% sure it will be Taiwan!
Well, if you have cheap living arrangements, in the end the quality of your education will depend on how much effort you put into it to a great extent. Plus, you should take the chance to see your grandmother for sure!! I’l bet she’s a great cook. And good food is the foundation for good learning.
If you just want to learn to write characters (and not essays, prose, or whatever like I originally assumed), pick up a copy of William McNaughton’s “Reading & Writing Chinese”. It used to be a little red and yellow book, but now I think it’s black and white. Anyway, it’s a good starting point and will get you up to about 2,000 characters.
It all depends on your atttitude. If you want to learn how to write, you will. Whether you are in Taiwan or in China.
You might want to consider schools other than NTNU.
I’ve never been there, but I’ve heard a lot of negative things about them over the years from people who have. They do have the reputation of being the best in Taipei, but it really does seem that they are coasting on that reputation. Maybe consider Wenhua (Chiense Cultural University) who I’ve heard are better and cheaper, or Taida (Taiwan National University) who I htink have tow different courses at different prices and are supposed to be pretty good.
If you search these forums, I’m sure you’ll find out more about these two schools.
Brian
[quote=“ironlady”]
I got the impression on my last visit to the Mainland (last year) that there’s a sort of psychological difference. Foreigners studying Chinese in the mainland are expected to master it – really well. There didn’t seem to be this “oh you could never achieve that level” thing going around. And you see and hear of quite a few foreigners who have really done very, very well in Chinese in the mainland. in Taiwan, no matter where I went, I always kind of had the feeling that people didn’t expect non-Chinese to be able to learn Chinese well. It might just be my subjective impression, but for what it’s worth…plus, if you can handle the conditions, the cost of living in China is lower.[/quote]
After spending a year in Beijing, Ironlady, I agree with you 100%. People actually expect you to speak Chinese, even if they know how to speak English. They seem to have the attitude “you’re in my country, so you should be speaking my language”. The best part is when I didn’t understand something that was said, people would usually try to explain it another way until I got it. Here if you miss something the first time and say “qing ni zai shuo yi bian” they’ll usually then respond in English, when I only wanted them to repeat what they said originally. It’s frustrating! You have to work extra hard if you really want to improve your Chinese in Taiwan!
[quote=“Erhu”]
After spending a year in Beijing, Ironlady, I agree with you 100%. People actually expect you to speak Chinese, even if they know how to speak English. They seem to have the attitude “you’re in my country, so you should be speaking my language”. The best part is when I didn’t understand something that was said, people would usually try to explain it another way until I got it. Here if you miss something the first time and say “qing ni zai shuo yi bian” they’ll usually then respond in English, when I only wanted them to repeat what they said originally. It’s frustrating! You have to work extra hard if you really want to improve your Chinese in Taiwan![/quote]
I think a lot depends on where you are and the kind of people you’re around. In my experience, young people and especially university students on the mainland are just as keen on speaking English with the foreigner as their Taiwanese counterparts. To me, the real difference in attitudes is found in the teachers. Although change comes slowly, teaching Chinese as a second language is becoming quite a professionalized field on the mainland. A teacher doesn’t really have a chance of getting and keeping a full-time position at a decent university without an MA in applied linguistics/TCSL. There are still lots of older folks with degrees in Chinese or basket weaving around, but they are being replaced by relatively well trained younger people who are often quite serious about the career they’ve chosen. While there are still lots of problems with the training processes they go through to become CSL teachers (i.e., they manage to finish an MA and land a university position without ever having done a rigorous teaching practicum), they at least seem to firmly believe that foreigners can learn Chinese well. Although I have met a few teachers in Taiwan who had the same attitude, Taiwanese CSL teachers usually seemed patronizing and poorly trained to me. Many of the folks I’ve known who’ve studied Chinese in Taiwan have complained that their teachers chit chat too much in English and don’t seem to have developed any classroom strategies for presenting language without English or whatever the learners’ L1 is. I don’t seem to hear that complaint too much from people who’ve studied on the mainland.
Having said all that, as and advanced student I would prefer Taiwan over the mainland. In my experience, Taiwanese people are a little more open to different ways of thinking and you can talk to them without fear of triggering an anti-Japanese, anti-US, antiyadayada lecture. Although the quality of materials and teaching on the mainland is getting much better than what can be found in Taiwan, it is still difficult to find teachers who really know how to teach advanced students. There just aren’t enough of us and they don’t have enough experience teaching us to get good at it. Once you get to an advanced level, the range of study options on both the mainland and Taiwan narrows and you’ve got to have strong motivation and focus if you’re going to continue to improve at a steady pace.
I believe that the IUP program that is now hosted by Qinghua University in Beijing used to be at Taida. I think Taida now runs a program called the ILP. They seem to follow a model similar to that of the IUP: three hours of small group classes and a one hour, one-to-one tutorial everyday. I can’t remember what the schedule is like at NTNU, but the ILP seems more intensive.
While I haven’t attended the ILP, is looks very nice as Jive Turkey says. It is also, however, extremely expensive. Tai-da’s second program, called urr… something, is identical to Shida’s two hour program and up to last year atleast were using the same Shida book. Which can actually be said of almost all the programs in Taiwan.
Shida is currently offering 3-hr classes, (max 8 students, I’ve had friends with only 4) but I hear the previous format has been changed again by the new Director for the next semester.
But really, the most important part of any language program is the teacher. They decide have final say on the pace of learning, how its explained, if they give a damn or not if you improve yada yada… I’ve had two very very good teachers at Shida, who were above and beyond my doctorate toting professors back home, and one horrible master toting teacher also from Shida…
There will be good and bad teachers no matter where you go, just hope your luck is good. Besides that, if you have to will to practise and use the language, it’ll improve no matter where you are. My advise? Refrain from wasting your days teaching english and watching HK movies!! Explore the culture and language instead!
When you study on the mainland do textbooks still use pinyin at the higher levels or do you need to be able to read characters? I am at an intermediate level in Chinese but can only read a few hundred characters at best. I’ve thought about going to China to study for a while but don’t want to get stuck in a level too low for me because I can’t read more difficult material.
I’ve written to universities about this but never got a clear answer. How flexible are study programs that you people have taken? It seems reading and writing are not a big concern. Do you write tests, then, even at higher levels, in pinyin?
I attended advanced Chinese classes at NTU’s ICLP during the summer of 2004. Overall, a good experience. I’m not sure what the other programs are like, but ICLP publishes their own course materials and texts.
For me personally, I chose Taiwan over Mainland China because of the use of traditional characters versus simplified. I can use both, but I prefer to learn traditional first because I’ve found that simplified is much easier to pick up after building a foundation and basis of understanding of traditional characters.
Something to think about when deciding between learning Chinese on the Mainland versus in Taiwan.
[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]When you study on the mainland do textbooks still use pinyin at the higher levels or do you need to be able to read characters? I am at an intermediate level in Chinese but can only read a few hundred characters at best. I’ve thought about going to China to study for a while but don’t want to get stuck in a level too low for me because I can’t read more difficult material.
I’ve written to universities about this but never got a clear answer. How flexible are study programs that you people have taken? It seems reading and writing are not a big concern. Do you write tests, then, even at higher levels, in pinyin?[/quote]
While I haven’t studied in China, I would assume this is similar to reading advanced material here in BoPoMoFo, which is pretty ludicrous. It’s a tool to help learn the language and not the language itself (yet perhaps? ) Most Chinese university educated Chinese friends of mine have absolutely horrible pinyin.
Possible perhaps, though mostly likely very expensive, to pay a teacher overthere to prepare pinyin material. I’d say your best bet is to start in again on the characters, which is much easier if you already know the pronouciation/meaning/usage and all that. It’d be very easy to advance your reading to a much higher level, with much more work involved to advance writing the same amount. But then maybe you could read the character textbooks and submit in pinyin until that happens. Dunno, food for thought…
I attended advanced Chinese classes at NTU’s ICLP during the summer of 2004. Overall, a good experience. I’m not sure what the other programs are like, but ICLP publishes their own course materials and texts.
All of ICLP’s programs seem to be copied from another source. They put their name on someone else’s work(very Chinese), usually another school which write the material - sometimes decades before. The Beijing IUP was started by a Taiwan ICLP professor who took materials to Mainland. Ironically, the copiers at ICLP were incensed at someone copying their copy.
NTNU teachers are very good if you can get past the patronizingz(to westerners) and the pitiful administration, nonsense rules, etc ubiquitous in China/TW. HSK in the mainland is causing some great materials to be published by PKU press.