Obama Picks Another Woman for Supreme Court

I’ve no idea what he’s on about, to be honest. He seems to be objecting that the people at the top of the legal profession get elected to the top jobs, objecting on the grounds that they’re wealthy and connected.

I can’t think, off hand, what profession pays less to more experienced, more able, more senior members than it does to those less able and qualified. Nor can I think of one where the less able and qualified are promoted to the top jobs.

Nor can I work out just who Fortigurn would like to have in the top jobs. Not a criminal, though that seemed to fit all his criteria, but it seems wasn’t experienced enough. So, somebody experienced, knowledgeable and able, it seems, but neither wealthy nor connected. And this has something to do with “social and moral health”.

I’m very confused. Perhaps the top people in the various churches all have to take vows of poverty, and there’s no politicking involved in their appointments, though I somehow doubt that. Perhaps he’s disguising a rant against capitalism.

Fortigurn is the only one making any sense at all.

There is of course a good argument to be made that race, gender, religion etc. should not be a consideration when awarding appointments, but when a particular group dominates or seems to be over represented it is natural for people to question whether or not there exists some social inequality. In many cases it can be argued that there has indeed been historical inequalities. On the basis of that people advocate for proportional governance. That idealism goes out the window however when these groups come to be OVER represnted and we come to realize that for many people it wasn’t equality that was the goal but instead more power for some particular group. There are universities in the West that continue to support subsidies to female students in particular despite the fact that more women have been entering and graduating from those same universities for years. Jews and Catholics in general see no problem with thier groups being over represented on the judiciary. If Wasps were to become dominant again many Jews and Catholics would be back to arguing for represenational governance in a hearbeat. In fact if they had appointed even one wasp (particularly a male wasp) in this instance there would have been a load of “rights” groups up in arms about it. And many wasps would support them because if there is one group that has literally been trained not to argue for itself, it’s wasps.

This rather boring pretty much sums it up I think.

I’d like to see a lesbian, atheist, brown-skinned, ultra-left, self-avowed soooooocialist of half-African, half-Middle Eastern Muslim descent on the bench and whose parents were both illegal aliens, for no other reason that make the Limbaugh/Beck/O’Reilly/Boortz/Savage/Levin types’ heads explode with rage and hatred!

I see a number of ancillary issues being brought to the front re:the nomination of Ms. Kagan. At this point, I’m not certain the legitimacy of these in deciding the matter of her appointment to the Supreme Court.
Personally, for what it matters - which admittedly is not much - I remain undecided on her as a potential member of the High Court.
One legal scholar, of which I have been familiar with for a number of years, offers this piece about Ms. Kagan.

[quote] About Kagan: False Dichotomies and Dangerous Justices
by John Armor (760 words)

The American press has started to discuss the nomination of Elena Kagan in liberal - conservative terms. This is a false dichotomy. The real, major question is whether the prospective Justice will, or will not, obey and apply the Constitution of the United States.

Using the word “liberal” in its old, Latin-based meaning, there are provisions in the Constitution which are more liberal, more conducive to individual freedom, than the provisions of the balance of the world’s 186 constitutions. A case in point is the First Amendment’s guarantee of freedom of the press. In definition and in practice, that Amendment guarantees the right of citizens to write and broadcast comments that few other governments would dare tolerate.

Using the word “conservative” in its old, Latin-based meaning, there are provisions in the Constitution that are more conservative, more protective of maintaining things as they are, than the provisions of the balance of the world’s 186 constitutions. A case in point is Article V which provides the amendment provisions. A vote of two-thirds of each House of Congress, followed by a vote of the legislatures of three-fourths of the states, is a very high burden.

Fundamental, governmental change in the United States is simply more difficult than in all but a handful of the world’s nations. More than 10,000 proposed amendments have been offered in Congress over the years. Only 27 have passed both Houses of Congress and been ratified by the states.

The paradox is that those Justices who understand, respect and follow the Constitution will support both that liberal position on the First Amendment and that conservative position on Article V. Sad to say, most reporters who write on the Supreme Court do not understand that the standard political labels of liberal and conservative are deceptive when applied to the Court. Most also fail to understand that respect for the Constitution is the real basic question about any nominee for the Court.

Now, let’s apply this thinking to Ms. Kagan. In the United Citizens case just decided, as Solicitor General she argued against the outcome which the Court reached in that case. She actually said, in front of the Court that the law should be able to “ban books.” That is a clear affront to the First Amendment.

She is against the US military. She sought to prevent the military services from recruiting at Harvard Law when she was Dean there. She was against the Clinton Administration’s “don’t ask, don’t tell.” Harvard Law joined in the effort led by Yale Law to defeat the Solomon Amendment in court, and took that fight to the Supreme Court where it lost, unanimously.

In a nutshell, the Solomon Amendment said that any university which received federal funds had to allow military recruiters on their campuses. Harvard’s position was, never mind what Congress said in the law. We want the court to throw out the law and give us the money, free and clear.

It was known to every first-year law student why this position would lose. Long ago, the Supreme Court upheld the federal law which required states to establish the 55 MPH speed limit. Congress, of course, had no authority over state motor vehicle laws. But it did have the power to set conditions on how it spends money.

Kagan’s argument was based on the idea that judges are smarter than ordinary people, and therefore judges should be able to “modernize” and rewrite both laws and the Constitution itself, whenever they agreed such change was necessary. That was her position as Dean of Harvard Law.

It is true that Kagan has a “very thin” record because she has never served as a judge, and did little scholarship while at Harvard. So, there is not much for people or politicians to seize on, to show how she would act as a Justice on the Supreme Court. But what there is indicates that she fails the very first requirement for any Justice on the Court, to obey the Constitution.

Every public official in the US at all levels, take an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution. The President’s oath is specified in the Constitution. All the rest are a matter of choice and tradition. One of the most lame oath is the one that Justices swear. I challenge reporters to get that text out of the Court’s press office, as I did, several years ago.

Still, that oath binds every Justice to obey the Constitution. Elena Kagan has already demonstrated that she doesn’t intend to do that. Therefore, she doesn’t belong on the Court.

About the Author: John Armor practiced before the Supreme Court for 33 years. His latest book, in September, is on Thomas Paine. [/quote]
I do not look for this to be a ‘shoo-in’ and think the debate over her nomination will be a healthy thing for the USA given its current political, economic and social condition.

The real problem isn’t that the Supreme Court isn’t representative of this group or that group. After all, unelected, unaccountable public officials who have been appointed for life are by definition representative only of themselves.

The real problem is that nine unelected, unaccountable public officials with lifetime appointments have somehow come to believe that, in a democracy, they’re entitled to engage in legislation without representation and thus made their group affiliations all important issues in their appointment processes.

While such government by diktat may be fine with those whose commisariat tendencies make them impatient with and even disdainful of democratic processes, it’s fundamentally incompatible with democracy. This leads to the key question and one with important long term consequences: do citizens of a democracy have a moral obligation to obey laws made by unelected, unaccountable public officials?

That’s right. I wonder how she feels about abortion.

politbureau, sorry but your concerns are misplaced. Judges, and Supreme Court justices especially, have always had the power to make law. They MUST have the power to make law. Making law is the essence of what Supreme Court justices have always done.

Why? Because it is a judge’s job to examine the facts in a case, examine the laws, and make a ruling on how the relevant laws apply to those relevant facts. If it was always perfectly clear and simple, there would never be any trials, cases would always settle, because the outcome would be perfectly clear in advance. And no one would ever complain about the outcome afterwards, because it would be perfectly obvious THAT was how the law applied to those particular facts. But it’s not always clear. Often there is ambiguity whether this law applies or not, whether it results in liability or not, depending on the particular facts in a certain case. So it is the judge’s job to make those decisions: does the law apply? is there liability based on that particular combination of facts and law? what is the proper result when applying those laws to those facts? That has always been the judges job and there is nothing wrong with that.

That’s especially true in the Supreme Court, because – like all appellate judges – they have no power to reexamine the facts and determine what happened, but are only supposed to examine the law, and – unlike other judges, they focus only on the Constitution, to see whether particular state or federal laws comply with the Constitution or not, etc. As explained above, there will always be uncertainty inherent in carrying out that job. If it were always black and white there would be no need for a Court. Instead, the Justices will sometimes decide that a certain law does comply wiht the constitution and a certain law doesn’t and there will always be people who disagree.

Of course, to make their decision, the Justices must provide a ruling in which they explain their interpretation of the particular legal provisions, the particular ambiguity that resulted in the case being brought before the Court, and why they believe that provision should be read in a certain manner.

It’s my understanding the term “judicial activism” was created, or at least came into widespread use, by disgruntled conservatives who were unhappy with the rulings of the Supreme Court and complained that the Justices were improperly making law. In fact, they have always made law, because a judicial interpretation of a law that has binding value as legal precedent, such that future courts of a lower level must comply with it, is a type of law. Nothing improper about that, so long as the court’s decision has a genuine rational basis in fact and law. Of course, the tables turned in the past decades and the courts are now loaded with an abundance of conservatives who interpret laws the way they wish to interpret them, in effect enacting conservative laws.

Judges have always been human beings, motivated primarily to perform their job in accordance with their belief of right and wrong and those beliefs will always be a personal subjective matter. It has always been that way and always will. Nothing one can ever do about it. So, you can complain about judges making laws, but it only makes you look silly and it’s futile to complain. All human beings are guided by their subjective beliefs, like it or not.

As for you TC, that guy you quoted from is a right-wing, conservative crackpot (do a google search on him and that will be clear) and his article you quoted is full of falsehoods. I’ve already pointed out how foolish his remark is that she hates the military; obviously she has great respect for hte military. Nor do I buy his claim that she wants to ban books. Why don’t you pull up the facts on that claim for us, so we can examine the veracity of that statement.

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]
As for you TC, that guy you quoted from is a right-wing, conservative crackpot (do a google search on him and that will be clear) and his article you quoted is full of falsehoods. I’ve already pointed out how foolish his remark is that she hates the military; obviously she has great respect for hte military. Nor do I buy his claim that she wants to ban books. Why don’t you pull up the facts on that claim for us, so we can examine the veracity of that statement.[/quote]

In March 2009 Deputy Solicitor General Malcolm L. Stewart claimed the government’s position is they could ban books if corporate treasury funds were used to produce the book. Kagan backed away from that position, saying that the FEC couldn’t ban books. Here’s the transcripts of the oral arguments.

How is it obvious that she has great respect for the military? Because she said so just before delivering the boot and slamming the door? If it is/was her belief that the military’s recruiting policy is a “moral injustice of the first order” then she should have given the federal government back their 400 million in annual grants. Instead her argument was that Harvard should be able to restrict military recruiting on campus due to DADT but not be subject to the Solomon amendment and not lose their money. A non-legal way to say that is “have your cake and eat it to”. The Supreme Court ruled unanimously against her position.

Restricting student’s choice to speak to recruiters hurts the university, the military and ultimately the students. The position that Peter Beinart advocates is far more sensible, that by restricting access of talented students with different ideas to recruiters leads to a feedback loop where DADT gets further and further entrenched. The original purpose of the ROTC which was to prevent groupthink by a narrow military caste system.

Understand your arguments, and don’t know enough about the details to make a judgment for myself on the Kagan-specific issue here, but what I wonder is, how effective is Ivy League recruitment, versus “southern campus” recruitment? I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done just because it’s less effective, but I’d like to confirm or disconfirm the obvious assumption that recruitment into the military is greatly reduced when people are more educated and/or richer (kind of like religiosity, come to think of it).

And anyway, isn’t it the capitalist maxim that “you get what you pay for” - in this case, you pay shitty salaries, you get shittier candidates. If you want to infuse the military with more educated and widely taught talent, you got to pay more.

I haven’t said she’s the wrong candidate. Whether or not she is the wrong candidate has nothing to do with me. I have no opinion on the matter of whether or not she’s the wrong candidate.

I have made no such objection.

Because I haven’t said anything about it. I’m not expressing an opinion on who I would like to have in the top jobs.

This is not only false, but deliberately so. I provided no criteria and I did not say that a criminal wasn’t experienced enough.

I said no such thing.

That was DB’s phrase, not mine. I simply commented on how he measures social and moral health.

I don’t believe there should be any ‘top people’ in church. I belong to a lay movement which eschews clergy and hierarchy.

No.

Not unless you want to have a proportioned representation on the court by traits that the justices have largely no control over. I’d prefer to get the best justice possible rather than use those criterion to make up for “historical imbalances”.[/quote]

I didn’t say in the above post that the bench should be seated based on the criterion proportional representation. And I don’t see how your comments follow logically. The fact that demographics serve as indicators of the extent to which various groups have equal opportunities or achievements doesn’t depend on whether or not one wants to have a proportioned representation on the court by traits that the justices have largely no control over.

Exactly. (But discussing proportionality and inequality should not be misconstrued as proposing criteria for appointment.)

As for whether or not proportionality is reflective of opportunity, have a look at whether or not gays, Muslims and atheists stand a fair chance in American politics. How many black senators would one expect if opportunities were really equal? How many women in Congress? I would argue that the lack of proportional representation of such groups is in fact reflective of unequal opportunity. The Supreme Court has a long history of domination by the wealthy white male elite, does it not?

Exactly. (But discussing proportionality and inequality should not be misconstrued as proposing criteria for appointment.)

As for whether or not proportionality is reflective of opportunity, have a look at whether or not gays, Muslims and atheists stand a fair chance in American politics. How many black senators would one expect if opportunities were really equal? How many women in Congress? I would argue that the lack of proportional representation of such groups is in fact reflective of unequal opportunity. The Supreme Court has a long history of domination by the wealthy white male elite, does it not?[/quote]

Well said. When the proportionality indicators show imbalance, it is not necessarily a good idea to change the qualifications and requirements and criteria for a particular position, it is better to work to change the environment that produced the imbalances (so long as you have the time for the changes to produce an effect). “Leveling the educational playing field” (nevermind the general social playing field) so that blacks, for example, have equal opportunities as the rest of the population, should over time produce more black people qualified to hold said position. “Leveling the pay playing field” might bring more women into the legal profession (though I have no numbers on women in the legal profession, my first guess would be predominately male lawyers and predominantly female legal aides).

Conservatives love to crow about how things like affirmative action and progressive taxation (which could help level the educational playing field, for example, by producing transferable tax revenue to poorer school districts, which, in the major inner cities, are predominantly black and hispanic) are “reverse racism”, but they are just partial measures to try to level the social and economic playing field - something that capitalists should be all for, I mean, isn’t having a meritocracy a bug goal of US capitalists? Why should a kid lucky enough to be born into a rich family living in a rich neighborhood with a rich school system get a better education and have much wider future job opportunities than a kid born to a poor inner city family living in dangerous conditions with little tax dollars to fund a shitty school system? What did the kid do wrong besides getting born>

I agree with this and what DB said. However, sometimes changing the environment can be unintuitively difficult. After two decades spent specifically trying to raise the number of girls who take higher math education in Australia, researchers and educators remain frustrated by the fact that girls are still under represented in this area. It doesn’t seem to matter how many times it’s explained to them that they should take higher math education, or how many programs are run in attempts to compel them to enrol, after 20 years the results remain the same. This, despite the fact that girls perform similarly in math to boys. Incredibly, surveys repeatedly demonstrate that a key reason why girls are not enrolling in such programs is that they don’t find math interesting. The real source of their oppression has yet to be identified (clearly fear is causing them to lie), but forcibly enrolling them in higher math programs is certainly not the solution.

By the same token, males are grossly under represented in early childhood education and the information industry, both of which are dominated by women from the lowest to the highest levels (two out of the three library directors I worked for were women). What can be done to overcome this serious social evil?

I’ve noticed the same problem in both of Obama’s supreme court nominees that nobody has brought up here: They are both fat. I would venture to guess that Kagan’s BMI is high enough to qualify her as obese.

I guess obesity is so common in the US now that nobody from either party would think twice about putting an unabashed food addict in a highly visible position of responsibility. The more practical question is: Does Obama not have any actuaries working for him? I would think that one of the vetting criteria used when deciding who to nominate would be prospects of longevity.

That’s a positive sign of unrestrained access to resources. :thumbsup:

Understand your arguments, and don’t know enough about the details to make a judgment for myself on the Kagan-specific issue here, but what I wonder is, how effective is Ivy League recruitment, versus “southern campus” recruitment? I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done just because it’s less effective, but I’d like to confirm or disconfirm the obvious assumption that recruitment into the military is greatly reduced when people are more educated and/or richer (kind of like religiosity, come to think of it).[/quote]

It’s hard to get a clear answer when you have polar opposites. To be an officer, you must have a 4 year degree. To enlist, you have to have a GED or high school diploma. Recruiting at universities is to get future officers into ROTC or OCS. If you ban recruiters from campus, as many elite universities did after the Vietnam war, those students don’t even get the option. They really only get one side of the picture, and at a university that banned ROTC it’s likely to be negative. In contrast, you have southern universities that throw open the door to ROTC. Then there are the military academies in the south, like VMI, Texas Tech, Norwich, the Citadel, etc.

Harvard wasn’t always like this. They have a memorial in the Memorial Church dedicated to all the men who lost their lives in WW2.

[quote]
And anyway, isn’t it the capitalist maxim that “you get what you pay for” - in this case, you pay shitty salaries, you get shittier candidates. If you want to infuse the military with more educated and widely taught talent, you got to pay more.[/quote]

That doesn’t work for certain intangibles otherwise organizations like the Peace Corps and other non-profits wouldn’t exist. That argument aside, officers don’t make peanuts in the military. An O1 (Lieutenant) with less than 2 years experience makes 2745 a month in straight pay, plus BAH and BAS (PDF). If you’re overseas there are a host of other allowances for you and if you’re in a combat zone for I think it’s 90 days all your income is tax free. That’s not bad if you’re straight out of college. The military gets quality in the officer corps, but it was difficult to compete when Wall Street could throw 120k starting at a graduate they wanted.

Yeah but the Peace Corp, while sometimes operating under dangerous conditions, is not nearly as potentially life threatening as a career in the military, and definitely not from a public perception perspective, which is part of what drives one’s decisions to join or not. I think the PC is not a great comparison there, with the military, even officers, you have your life potentially at risk (more than potentially given todays military operations, especially when you’re a newbie).

Also, just because the military may be banned at some universities, under some administrations, does not mean that people from those universities are prevented from joining up. The universities are private, though they receive federal support. And, well, sometimes the military, usually in conjunction with the government, does something not only stupid but actually immoral or unethical (the Vietnam war, Abu Ghraib (sp?), etc), and banning proselytizing is certainly one way to protest.

Like you say pretty clearly, it’s hard to compete vs the big salaries that Ivy League graduate command, although I believe that’s probably more true for the financial, medical, commercial, and engineering sectors than liberal arts etc at those same universities. But then, it’s precisely those people you want.

Still, saying she kicked the military in the face is a little hyperbole, eh? You can be a supporter of military personnel, even the military in general, while being stridently, fervently opposed to certain policies. In the US I had many military and ex-military friends and coworkers, and most of them didn’t fit the “racist southerner” stereotype, to say I don’t support their well-being is just silly, but to say I oppose a shitload of US military policy would be an understatement. It’s like those who criticize Israeli policies but are called anti-semitic…

Exactly. (But discussing proportionality and inequality should not be misconstrued as proposing criteria for appointment.)

As for whether or not proportionality is reflective of opportunity, have a look at whether or not gays, Muslims and atheists stand a fair chance in American politics. How many black senators would one expect if opportunities were really equal? How many women in Congress? I would argue that the lack of proportional representation of such groups is in fact reflective of unequal opportunity. The Supreme Court has a long history of domination by the wealthy white male elite, does it not?[/quote]

Yes, I agreed with that at the beginning. I am even in favor of “some” affirmative action plans. But I am not naive enough to think that those same disadvantaged groups would stop pressing for power beyond the point that the power balance has already begun to swing in their favor. You have plenty of places in the US and Canada that still continue to promote affirmative action plans for women in when statistics show that there are already more women than men are recieving an education. Other situations are similar. Try getting a job in a post office in Cananda if you aren’t from a “disadvantaged” group. The Canandian government is Cananda’s biggest employer. It actively dicriminates against male Wasps. Or take an honest look too at the number of situations that are dominated by gay people. Hollywood is an enormous industry. Does anyone honestly imagine that straight people are not dicriminated against there?

I am not even saying that the old lines no longer exist. I’m saying that they are changing rapidly and that I don’t see any indication that anybody is willing to look at where they actually are now, and that in some cases that is because 'equality" wasn’t what many were after at all but instead merely more power to their particular group or groups.

:laughing: Cute. But the goal should be to empower the historically oppressed (not males) so that they have the qualifications needed for positions of power and influence (not childhood educators or library directors), and to ensure that such positions are in fact open to them on an equal opportunity basis (something I’d argue is not entirely true for, say, Muslims and atheists in American politics at present), not to ensure that any particular demographic is equally represented in any particular profession as in your example. However, your point that changing the environment can be unintuitively difficult is well taken.

A little hyperbole? It’s a flat-out lie.

Kagan repeatedly praised the military in a speech at the US Military Academy at West Point, New York:

judiciary.senate.gov/nominations … Part19.pdf

She has repeatedly issued written statements referring to the military as a noble profession, referred to the extaordinary service that members of the military provide, called it the greatest service a person can give for their country, and so forth.

hlrecord.org/2.4462/kagan-e- … l-1.580120
hlrecord.org/2.4463/students … s-1.579599
hlrecord.org/2.4463/military … s-1.577599

She went out of her way as Dean of Harvard Law School to create an environment highly supportive of veterans, as explained by three Iraq war vets who attended the school.

[quote]During her time as dean, she has created an environment that is highly supportive of students who have served in the military. For the past three years, Miss Kagan has hosted a Veterans Day dinner for all former service members and spouses. She pioneered this event on her own initiative, which has meant a great deal to students.

Indeed, every year, Miss Kagan makes a point to mention the number of veterans in the first-year class during her welcome address to new students. Under her leadership, Harvard Law School has also gone out of its way to highlight our military service, publishing numerous articles on the school Web site and in alumni newsletters. These are not actions of an “anti-military zealot,” and greater care should be exercised before someone is labeled as such.[/quote]
washingtontimes.com/news/200 … ena-kagan/

And she consistently followed the law at Harvard, allowing students full access to military recruiters during her entire tenure as dean, except briefly restricting, but not eliminating, such access to recruiters only after the U.S Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit ruled that law schools could do so.
mediamatters.org/research/201005100001#1

So, to those right-wing nutjobs who claim she hates the military, I have just one thing to say to you: :raspberry: