bullshit. No schools for girls are back open? Women still being shot in Kabul stadium? Women unable to work and thus starving if widowed?
You are confusing the status of Sunni women with that of Iraqi women. I would agree that the 10% of the population that was Sunni and female probably had it better in many ways under Saddam particularly if living in Baghdad.
Wars can solve problems. Ask Saddam, Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, Stalin… Perhaps, we need a few more.
What are you referring to?
and suppressing thought was not also widespread in the Muslim world during the Middle Ages?
No. Actually, it was mostly Greeks in Arab and Muslim occupied areas who continued to make advances. Most of the knowledge of the Greeks was transferred to Europe via the Crusades but not because of the contact with the Muslim world, but because of the expanded contact with Byzantium. Sorry, but this old chestnut about the glories of the liberal Muslim world are simply wrong.
How exactly does one “understand” the Taliban? the mullahs? Saddam? Hizbollah? Hamas? to have peace means submitting 100% to the various demands. Don’t kid yourself that US administrations including Bush’s did not try to “talk” to these various groups.
What are you referring to?[/quote]
One prime example was the decree of Theodosius I. The Library at Alexandria…destroyed by Christians.
The next thousand years were called the Dark Ages due to religious oppression.
Yeah, I know it happened before Mohammed. I should have said “Arabs” below.
No. Actually, it was mostly Greeks in Arab and Muslim occupied areas who continued to make advances. Most of the knowledge of the Greeks was transferred to Europe via the Crusades but not because of the contact with the Muslim world, but because of the expanded contact with Byzantium. Sorry, but this old chestnut about the glories of the liberal Muslim world are simply wrong.[/quote]
You get people like Ali Ibn Isa, who in the 9th century calculated the earth’s circumference to within a 3% error, the best ever done at the time. Ibn al-Nafis made great advances in medicine in the 14th century, and compiled the world’s largest medical reference at the time. Ibn Zuhr made advances in surgical techniques in the 11th century. A great number of Arab mathematicians and astronomers made numerous advances and discoveries. The Arabs were using the zero before Europeans did.
And they were Arabs, not Greeks. This is easily Googlable. Just stay away from white supremacist sites that’ll tell you “Oh, no, brown people couldn’t possibly have made such advances; they had to be whites.”
How exactly does one “understand” the Taliban? the mullahs? Saddam? Hizbollah? Hamas?[quote]
“Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will have a hundred victories.” - Sun Tzu
Note that the vast majority of the Islamic world is NOT the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Hezbolla. As for Hamas, they were voted into power, mainly as a reaction to Israeli heavy-handedness and attacks. Not dissimilar to how Ahmedinejad came to power. Act extreme to people, and it drives them into extremism.
Don’t confuse the extremists with the mainstream of the Islamic world.
Obama’s speech was a hand of friendship to the mainstream of the Islamic world; something that is sure to get the extremists running scared. The mainstream Muslims detest the extremists. With cooperation between the West and the mainstream Muslims, the extremists can be pushed into oblivion.
Dr. McCoy: Please give us a citation on that.[/quote]
The Lancet.
I see. It’s flawed and discredited because right-wing groups say it is, and you can aaaaaaaalways trust right-wing groups to tell the truth.
Dr. McCoy: Please give us a citation on that.[/quote]
The Lancet.
I see. It’s flawed and discredited because right-wing groups say it is, and you can aaaaaaaalways trust right-wing groups to tell the truth.[/quote]
The Lancet study is probably flawed. But even if it is ‘only’ a couple of hundred thousand, …
Fuck!
To suggest that is not the case is a bit obtuse. You are sick: where do you want to be treated and by whom? Indian traditional medicine? Chinese? African? Incan? Mayan? Aztec? Muslim? Western? You want to receive a good education: where do you want to be educated? I think that we know that the answer is the West as this is where millions of the developing world’s students come. Why? You are a woman: Where do you want to live? You are gay: where do you want to live? You are an adherent of a non-majority, nonestablishment faith: where do you want to live? You are accused of a crime: where do you want to be tried and prosectued and if necessary where would you want to go to jail?
Anyway, I understand the need not to look down on other cultures, but let’s not pretend they are all equal. The UN and other organizations have studies where they determine social and cultural development indices. I think that these are a fair assessment of the quality of life and the ability to develop as an individual in any country or region on earth. Let’s not pretend that these factors are not real and do not exist because we have been taught some crap about all values and systems being equal. It simply is not true. Much more important in my view is to say despite this that all PEOPLE are equal and all PEOPLE have the right to develop and that they should be accorded with certain inalienable rights. If that is in place, these kinds of discussions are unnecessary.
Let me put it another way: French or German food? Obviously France has a far more glorious tradition when it comes to food than Germany. Do we need to pretend that such is not the case? Italian statuery and Aztec stone carvings? Which tradition is richer? More developed? Obviously Italy but does that mean no one recognizes the value, beauty and importance of the Aztec traditions? No. Carry that on further and you will get into the areas that I am talking about albeit without the cultural baggage of having to pretend that objective standards for world development, art, rights, etc. do not exist.[/quote]
Objective standards? These are mere yardsticks that exist in one time and place, and being devised by certain individuals within a certain culture/civilization are inherently subjective. Without a doubt the so called objective standards of which you speak will be subject to ridicule at some point in the distant future, in much the same way numerous standards of the past are critiqued today. To pretend that kultur is not a static unchanging entity is entirely missing the point. All civilizations rise and fall. While the West might be top dog today, do you really think that fact is an absolute truth, to last for the rest of time?
Of course, because Newton was from Algeria, Fleming was from Yemen and Watt was Indonesian.
To suggest that is not the case is a bit obtuse. You are sick: where do you want to be treated and by whom? Indian traditional medicine? Chinese? African? Incan? Mayan? Aztec? Muslim? Western? You want to receive a good education: where do you want to be educated? I think that we know that the answer is the West as this is where millions of the developing world’s students come. Why? You are a woman: Where do you want to live? You are gay: where do you want to live? You are an adherent of a non-majority, nonestablishment faith: where do you want to live? You are accused of a crime: where do you want to be tried and prosectued and if necessary where would you want to go to jail?
Anyway, I understand the need not to look down on other cultures, but let’s not pretend they are all equal. The UN and other organizations have studies where they determine social and cultural development indices. I think that these are a fair assessment of the quality of life and the ability to develop as an individual in any country or region on earth. Let’s not pretend that these factors are not real and do not exist because we have been taught some crap about all values and systems being equal. It simply is not true. Much more important in my view is to say despite this that all PEOPLE are equal and all PEOPLE have the right to develop and that they should be accorded with certain inalienable rights. If that is in place, these kinds of discussions are unnecessary.
Let me put it another way: French or German food? Obviously France has a far more glorious tradition when it comes to food than Germany. Do we need to pretend that such is not the case? Italian statuery and Aztec stone carvings? Which tradition is richer? More developed? Obviously Italy but does that mean no one recognizes the value, beauty and importance of the Aztec traditions? No. Carry that on further and you will get into the areas that I am talking about albeit without the cultural baggage of having to pretend that objective standards for world development, art, rights, etc. do not exist.[/quote]
Objective standards? These are mere yardsticks that exist in one time and place, and being devised by certain individuals within a certain culture/civilization are inherently subjective. Without a doubt the so called objective standards of which you speak will be subject to ridicule at some point in the distant future, in much the same way numerous standards of the past are critiqued today. To pretend that kultur is not a static unchanging entity is entirely missing the point. All civilizations rise and fall. While the West might be top dog today, do you really think that fact is an absolute truth, to last for the rest of time?[/quote]
Of course, because things like plunging infant mortality (and increased life expectancy in general) and increased daily caloric consumption are purely subjective, as are the scientific discoveries and inventions that lead to them, and of course, the cultures that derive such advances time and again have no inherent traits that produce a far higher yield of such advances than other cultures. No, no, some group of people digging for worms in the desert are just as advanced, relevant and important as anyone else.
Of course, because Newton was from Algeria, Fleming was from Yemen and Watt was Indonesian.[/quote]
Last time I checked the architects of the Thirty Years War, The Shoah, and the pillaging of the so-called “New” World were from the bastions of Western Civilization.
Plus and Minus.
All cultures have both.
Increased caloric consumption?
Do you refer to the vast encroaching problems caused by sloth & obesity in the West?
Are you so ignorant of the vast contributions made by other cultures to what is labelled as progress, when Europe was still deep in muck & mire? Or is it a matter of turning a blind eye?
What part of “I think best would be to pull the troops out” do you not understand? If you don’t understand that I would prefer no war, but that if war has to take place I would prefer if it were to help women as opposed to the current unknown “motives,” then it’s your problem, not mine.
marboulette
Sorry, but I’m not keen to do your homework for you. Whatever figure you come up with, compare that to 3000 Americans and try to wrap your head around the whole thing. Good luck.
marboulette
You really live in a moral vacuum, don’t you?
All right. Who has killed how many in the Middle East over the past 10 years? Please tell us. And be sure and cite your sources. I imagine that they will be “interesting” ones.[/quote]
[quote=“marboulette”]What part of “I think best would be to pull the troops out” do you not understand? If you don’t understand that I would prefer no war, but that if war has to take place I would prefer if it were to help women as opposed to the current unknown “motives,” then it’s your problem, not mine.
marboulette
[/quote]
I think it’s the part where you say to send the Marines in.
It’s interesting to read the opinions of guys from privileged backgrounds and advanced western nations.
Some of you regurgitate so much text book nonsense it’s unbelievable. Living in Taiwan will not give you an inkling of an idea into the nature of a developing country or what some have called inferior culture. Where I’m coming from Taiwan is a fairly advanced industrialized nation with political accountability, a structured democracy and democratic systems, with a high culture. Whether you believe all cultures are equal or some are better than others, I suggest you spend a decade or so in an African, North African or Middle Eastern country. Better yet, try to carve out a life for yourself there and raise a family there.
My opinions aside, I don’t think any nation/country has the right to determine the political or cultural or even religious future of any other country. Either you deal with Middle Eastern cultures on their terms to get the resources you want, or develop the means to be independent of those resources. Whether their culture and history is inferior or not is irrelevant.
I said I would prefer that over the current war, yes. You’ve read many of my posts regarding war and violence. You know I’m not a fan of the non sense. Please don’t pull this shit on me, Good Dr.
marboulette
[quote=“Dr. McCoy”][quote=“marboulette”]What part of “I think best would be to pull the troops out” do you not understand? If you don’t understand that I would prefer no war, but that if war has to take place I would prefer if it were to help women as opposed to the current unknown “motives,” then it’s your problem, not mine.
marboulette
[/quote]
I think it’s the part where you say to send the Marines in.[/quote]
You are obviously not a fan of sense either.
Yes, they made “advances” but hardly any appears in the list of notables that made earth-shattering real contributions to their respective scientific or cultural fields.
Did not say that. But, the issue here is that the Greeks fostered an open approach that valued “truth.” This was most certainly NOT the case for the Muslim world and the greatest advances in Muslim civilization occurred while areas were newly conquered and before the spark of innovation had been stamped out. The abuses and intolerance of the Muslims at this time was equal to or greater than for the Christians. Don’t kid yourself that this was some how a flowering of civilization equal to what we today have in the West. You got out of line then politically, religiously or scientifically and you either fled or your head was on a spike.
How exactly does one “understand” the Taliban? the mullahs? Saddam? Hizbollah? Hamas?
[quote]Quote:
“Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will have a hundred victories.” - Sun Tzu[/quote]
Oh God. Sun Tzu whose quotes are so endless and all-encompassing that I can find one right now to rebut what you have said. Please PLEASE do not quote Sun Tzu unless you have a full understanding of his theories, which were so varied that in any case, several of his quotes would apply thus making his advice useless.
Nor were the majority of Germans Nazis but it DOES MATTER when they are in power.
Bullshit. Perhaps, Hizbollah has found some dissent in Lebanon but it is heavily funded by Iran and Syria and that has nothing to do or very little to do with Israel. It is about Syria wanting to keep control of Lebanon.
More like a mafia don taking control. Again, politics in Iran is about domestic issues that have nothing to do with the US or Israel. This group of leaders is unaccountable to its people. I would suggest that despite the non-stop rhetoric, most Iranians could care less about the actions of the US and Israel. Of course, there are still the managed protests that remind one of the communist days where everyone marches in the street to protest the great Satan… yawn…
When they are in power, they have control of states. You seem to think that a government run by the mullahs is to be given the same respect as a Western parliamentary government with the confidence that said state will act in the interests of the international community. I think that this is laughably, contemptibly naive.
Yeah. I am sure that the extremists are running scared… read the same opinion piece in the IHT yesterday did we?
Au contraire. They have started to detest the extremists only when the extremist violence was visited on them. Before they actually experienced the suicide bombings themselves, most Muslims were quite happy to see Christians and Jews being blown to bits. It was cause for celebration and the passing of candy to passerby.
Yes, but first there will have to be a recognition among Muslims that they have duties and responsibilities and cannot just scream with rage whenever they do not get their way. Spain and East Timor along with India were mentioned by al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden during the leadup to and immediate aftermath of 911. Most people do not remember that. Israel and Palestine were not mentioned once. Curious… if it is all about Israeli aggression and about the “plight” of the Palestinians, eh?
You made the statement but you are not willing or not able to back it up… I think that we can assume it is the latter. So… you do not have a figure for the number of Muslims killed by Americans… interesting… so we should listen to you because… er… help me out here…
The answer is somewhere between ‘too many’ and ‘a whole lot’.
Newsflash: Multi culti is out…
There are objective standards. If you don’t think so then go to any hospital for any treatment from any doctor with any followup and any medicine. Go to any country and start up a business, get married, have a family. Go to any country to get an education… ooopsss apparently that has already happened.
Science has objective standards. Ditto for medicine. Ditto for philosophy. ADMITTEDLY, philosophy can be heavily influenced by language. Ditto for literature but there can be objective analyses of the structure and thought processes DESPITE these linguistic characteristics. And for all the pretense about art and music being subjective, surprisingly, we are also finding that there are objective standards for measuring this too in terms of technique and effect. Now, YOU may like something better than something else BUT there are experts who are able to measure and judge the quality of a Matisse as opposed to a bark mask and determine value. Now, this “value” would be something that Marx would have no doubt pointed to as a commodification of labor BUT… that would not change the respect and admiration with which experts would behold a certain painting or sculpture. This is also why trendsetting paintings and sculptures tend to be valued most highly despite the fact that the same artist may have completed many more in the same genre subsequent to this initial “finding” or “innovation.” So, er, you seem to be merely providing your “opinions” on whether objective standards exist or not. Enjoy that.
[quote]The Lancet study is probably flawed. But even if it is ‘only’ a couple of hundred thousand, …
Fuck![/quote]
Today’s latest by Iraq Body Count puts the numbers at 92,300 to 100,775 with most of these caused by bombs (insurgents, terrorists) and gunfire second. Check it out.