Official Data-Taiwan among filthiest planets on Earth!

All I can say is thank god I live up in the mountains where the air is cleaner and away from the cities and factories.

You should ask before you assume Sandman. That is what I do, every single day. I am currently working with experts on how to solve Taiwan’s collapsed fisheries, save an endangered species of humpback dolphins, and clean up the harbours around the island, as well as educate the locals about conservation.

I know I am responding late, but I have a request of everyone. I know your intentions are good, but stop babying Taiwan. It makes matters so much worse. There is no excuse. Do you think Taiwanese people are stupid? Do you think that they are unable to realize that dumping oil and other pollutants in the ocean is bad for the wildlife?

They know 100% what the concequences are/will be. Trust me or not, the environmental situation in Taiwan is a choice. Have you ever seen a presidential platform that didn’t include the environment? You don’t believe me, call the Director of Conservation and ask him what steps his government has taken to protect the Indo-Pacific Humpbacks of the Taiwan Strait? His name is Mr. Fang. His direct line is 02-2351-5441 ext. 650. Ask him why he thinks that dolphins that live in the ocean don’t rely on freshwater.

For those that don’t know, it doesn’t matter that they live in the ocean. Some species rely heavily on the flow of fresh water from rivers. Estuaries (river mouths) are the determining factor of their survival. It’s like saying, the ocean is irrelevant to humans because we live on land.

Think of Taiwan as a teenager rather than a baby. They know the rules, they just choose not to follow them. Trust me or not?

I trust you, although I assumed nothing from your post as you indeed offered not a single alternative, nor have you in your most recent post.
As for the rules, fair enough. How many countries in the world DO follow the rules? The US? Britain? Europe? Japan? Russia? Give me a break!

Also, I’m interested in becoming involved in your line of work. What are your qualifications and how does one go about finding work in your area here?

Also, if you’re looking for credibility, how about making some concrete suggestions as to what we can do, rather than just having an anti-Taiwan rant that achieves nothing of substance.

You are the expert. Offer some guidance.

Oh yeah. What’s the difference between Taiwan and any other nation? Not my concern, because I would behave the same way in any nation that I lived in. Also, you have to remember that Taiwan is slightly smaller than the states of Maryland and Delaware combined. They don’t have the room to be a stupid as the rest of them. There is choice and there is concequence. I am not dismissing anything, of course I think it’s great that they are doing all of those programs, but not enough is still not enough. I don’t mean not enough according to me, I mean not enough according to the carrying capacity of this island.

If you have a nose bleed, you can get a tissue. If your leg gets cut off, tissue isn’t going to cut it. I don’t know how else to explain it to you. The legislative mess has nothing to do with this. According to the Wildlife Conservation Law of Taiwan, cetaceans have the highest level of protection possible. Whale watching groups are complaining, their sighting have gone from 90% of the time to 60% of the time. What do you think that means? There are 15 species of dolphin that should be found in Taiwanese waters, but only the Finless porpoise can be found in decent numbers. That’s 14 species that have decided to move out? No, the government wiped them out. That Wildlife conservation Law was put in place only to get the monitoring bodies off their back. I’m not the one saying Taiwan has to do more, its the International Whaling Commission that is getting pissed off, take it up with them. I have to admit that 25000- 40000 dolphin deaths a year due to the use of illegal drift nets pisses me off too!

Sandman, what are you interested in doing? Don’t take what I say as a “rant.” It is very valid and I am sincerely concerned. I am always looking for volunteers to help out. If anyone is interested you can PM me, but please only if you are really interested in getting your nose in it! Sometimes its fun, sometimes its painful.

Fair-enough, and since you clearly stated that in you previous post, allow me to apologize.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]I believe all current manufacture 'scooters are 4-stoke
[/quote]
Are you sure about that? Can you offer a source?

And, how about using bio-diesel with the busses? I suppose that would be ludicrous to suggest Taiwan to do it, since that’s a notion that has yet to be entirely embraced in western society. Regardless, it would significantly improve air quality.
Biodiesel emissions info

[quote=“Formosan”]Yes. A 3.5 liter Mercedes may produce more volume of pollutants than a scooter but check the composition of the exhaust from the German car. Also I suspect that there are far more scooter-produced, hazardous pollutants than that spewed from late model cars that are CAT-equipped.[/quote]You are contradicting yourself. Yes, a scooter emits more unburned and partially burned hydrocarons than the Merc, but the Merc produces a far larger volume of oxides of nitrogen and carbon, despite it’s catalytic converters.
Ask those who’ve owned a 50 or 90cc scooter how large a four-stroke scooter is required to get the same performance and they will tell you at least a 125. That doesn’t reduce the total amount of pollutants created, quite the opposite. It just cuts the amount of hydrocarbons. NO, N2O, CO, CO2 emissions will all increase. It doesn’t change much except the color of the haze over the city.

What I’m getting at that we should be taxing the hell out of people who insist on owning a huge gas-guzzling car for moving their fat ass from A to B, with the aim of pushing them to exchange it for something that pollutes less, or using public transport.

If it’s not a rant then what is it? Sorry, but in my book, criticizing without offering alternatives or courses of action IS a rant. And why PMs? Surely something as important as this, involving someone with expertise in the field (you) should be out in public for all to see, especially if you are always looking for volunteers. Hell, post something of substance and I might even make it a sticky.

Hogwash, the only advantages the 2-stroke has ever had were cost, simplicity, because of simplicity reduced weight, and lower weight allows higher revs. Combustion of high viscosity oil not only produces the sickly sludge everyone is complaining about, but also destroys smooth flame front propagation, and a bunch of other technical stuff, all of which lead to poorer performance. Modern 4-strokes can perform just as “well” as 2-strokes, and far better if you put fuel consumption into the definition of performance. Pollution is at least a magnitude lower.

Any recently new family gasoline fueled car sold in NA pollutes far less (both in quantity and number of) than the average 2-stroke lawnmower (or scooter in here). An argument can be made that CO2 production is greater, but this is no where near as hazardous as others components (relating to toxicity and alternative methods of reduction).

A tax on large displacement vehicles, which spend hours longer stuck traffic on each trip than a scooter, and require massive infrastructure to support them, is a great solution. But getting rid of the huge polluters (2-strokes and ill-maintained diesels) would be a much more prudent first step.

Two side notes, I recently read a mindly serious study into the preferability of breathing tailpipe emissions in LA versus the air. There wasn’t much difference.

Catalytic converters aren’t magic little boxes that can solve the world’s problems. No voodoo is involved (really, I promise) and they can actually magnify problems if operated outside of the design range, think 5 minute trip to 7-11.

Sandman, I don’t think you are paying attention, I already told you that I am working on solutions. The problem is not an easy one to solve. What exactly is it that you want to know? The history of cetaceans? Just ask and if I can, I will answer. I said PM because finding someone an issue they will stick with isn’t always easy, a lot of discussion is needed. Almost anyone will take on an issue, the hard part is finding an issue they will stick with.

And I have discovered the secret of perpetual motion. You don’t think I’m paying attention. To what? That you think Taiwan’s environmental efforts suck? That’s the only thing you’ve told us, and it’s something many of us are already well aware of.
What solutions are you working on? Who are you working for?

[quote=“Freakin’ Amazing”]Modern 4-strokes can perform just as “well” as 2-strokes[/quote]Still can’t get down to the same power/weight or power/volume ratios, so we end up exchanging a 50cc two-stroke for a 125 four-stroke with similar mass air consumption, and a bigger heavier chassis for similar fuel efficiency. Less unburned HC, more oxides of nitrogen and carbon. Less poison, more greenhouse gases.

[quote=“Freakin’ Amazing”]
A tax on large displacement vehicles, which spend hours longer stuck traffic on each trip than a scooter, and require massive infrastructure to support them, is a great solution. But getting rid of the huge polluters (2-strokes and ill-maintained diesels) would be a much more prudent first step.

Catalytic converters aren’t magic little boxes that can solve the world’s problems. No voodoo is involved (really, I promise) and they can actually magnify problems if operated outside of the design range, think 5 minute trip to 7-11.[/quote]

Mmmm. So, one might surmise that the two-stroke scooter may in fact pollute less than a large passenger car on a short journey where the car’s catalytic converters haven’t had chance to get up to working temperature. It’s well-known that fuel mixtures are set deliberately rich these days in order to get higher efficiency from the converters, increasing fuel consumption for the sake of improving emissions, but only when the whole system is at nominal temperature. During the warmup cycle an engine tuned to run catless is actually cleaner…
I guess we should thank those scooter pilots for not taking the Benz 100m down the road to the 7-11 :wink:

[quote=“hsiadogah”]
I guess we should thank those scooter pilots for not taking the Benz 100m down the road to the 7-11 :wink:[/quote]

:wink: Well it might be a stretch to go that far, and I know ppl who do drive the benz for that (it’s just so much cooler if you do you know… :loco: )

Since we’re already way off topic and I don’t think anyone besides us two are benifitting, I’ll make my last comment on 2/4-strokes, which is that to get power out of a 2-stroke you have to rev it til it sounds like a mouse wheel on steriods, which means your doubling if not tripling the number of revs a 4-stroke needs for the same power. And theres the fact that a 2s spews every rev, while a 4s skips and so uses half the air mass if at the same rpm…

And back on topic, it boggles my mind that the national and city governments here care so little about air pollution. Geez-sus man it’s no good having pretty scenery if you can’t see it through you respirator… A huge reason why NHI has book troubles.

It’s even harder for me to fathom why said governments, or other cities worldwide, don’t do the easy thing and actually economically sound (if you include fringe benefits from less pollution) and phaze out horrendous polluters like 2-strokes… An outright ban would result in chaos and more bribing police to look the other way. But a phase out and adding financial incentives to buy “greener” products to get the sticklers on the 15 yr old driving trash cans, would pay for itself through fringe benefits…

But sigh, I must be a too rational to be taken seriously. Or is it too many governments have industrial lobby groups (or friends in Taiwan’s case) shoved so far up their behinds that they can’t stratch their nuts without asking for permission first…:bow:

I think I already mentioned this, I am doing a harbour clean-up project/aboriginal employment program. I am doing public education classes regarding conservation strategies for Taiwan. I work for myself. These are all part of the solution. The ocean is sick, I am looking into what it needs to be healthy, I go find it, and do my best to work something out. Why? Do you want to help?

I did not say that Taiwan’s efforts suck, I said they have put the cart before the horse. They are not dealing with what’s killing this island, instead they chose only what makes them look good. Have you ever known a government to devote as much time and money to research whale watching, but fuss and fight when people ask, “what about the whales?” You are making me repeat myself.

Taiwan will not become environmentally conscious in our generation. They can’t even implement a serious “Don’t litter” campaign, or enforce the no littering laws they already sort of have. It’s hard to break 2,000+ years of bad habits.

Taipei is a lot cleaner than New York City. It’s less 2000 years of bad habits, and more a function of population density. Try to resist the temptation to make cultural-based arguments–it’s slovenly.

i was in hawaii recently and came across a bunch of folk who had converted their diesel engine vehicles to run on SVO (straight vegetable oil–totally different from biodiesel). the converters seem to cost anything from 500-1100 dollars. i’ve just begun research on this, so if anyone out there

has tried this before,
has a diesel vehicle that they would be willing to experiment with,
is interested in pooling resources to get a diesel vehicle up and running like this,
has ideas about how the taipei government could be seduced into running a pilot with one or two city buses,
has enough mandarin fluency to translate a brochure,
wants to stand on the corner and hand out brochures,
or has other ideas…

please let me know!
(dewy_hips@hotmail.com)

these vehicles run on used vegetable oil. the quantity of waste oil in this city is absolutely mind-boggling, so it seems genius to me since the waste oil burns a lot cleaner. (but wouldn’t the city smell of fried pork? doesn’t it already?)

there are a lot of factors to consider, as to whether or not this would be a viable long-term solution for taipei, and i’m certainly not educated enough yet to say, but it seems to be a very possible interim solution for dealing with the nasty bus problem.

here is one of the many websites on the topic, in case anyone is interested:
greasel.com

I said “Taiwan” in my post, not “Taipei”. There’s a BIG difference. Are we going to have to take this outside? :fume:

OK and the rest of Taiwan doesn’t have any money to fund street cleaning because Taipei gets it all. It’s still not cultural.

Lame excuse. Taiwan is wealthy country. It can afford to clean up its environment, it can implement public education programs to teach people not to litter, it can actually give out fines when people violate the law, they can tear down dilapidated buildings, they can update infrastructure. They have the money to build a high-speed railway from Taipei to Kaoshiung, build an MRT system in Kaohsiung, extend the MRT system into the outskirts of Taipei county, give tons of “bribe” money to its “diplomatic allies,” have a thriving technology sector, but it can’t even keep its streets or the exteriors of its buildings clean. It may not be politically correct to say that Taiwanese are dirty, but it hits you in the face every morning you walk out the door. If the people cared, they could do something about it. People could take better care of their local environments even without the government’s money. When people buy a pack of cigarettes they can stick the plastic wrapper in their pocket and throw it away when they get home like I do instead of throwing it on the street. They could spit into a handkerchief. They could use some of their “maintenance fees” that they pay every month in their apartment buildings to have the exterior washed every couple of years. They could remove the tacky bars from the windows, etc., etc.