Once were warriors: gene linked to Maori violence

Quite right, the scale wasn’t there, but you really should read up on the orgy of death and cannibalism that ended the days of the pacifist Moriori on the Chatham Islands.

HG

Yes, I know. But the thing is, there isn’t any argument that you could make about “violence” and Maori that you couldn’t make in the same or greater degree for Caucasians. The whole thing hinges on accepting a certain social construction of what “violence” is. That is why the whole gene thing is simple-minded.

Michael

Actually Vorkosigan, I totally agree with your point, the whole thing smacks of Eugenics. So the Maori are violent . . one supposes African Americans are very good at running, but not much chop at complicated physics, etc. All been said, and proven to be nonesense, long ago.

HG

Vorkosigan -
I find your comments to be nothing more than unsupported personal opinions.
The whole “caucasian violence” spiel was cute, but not really of any substance nor relevant to the topic of the article.
It Helps to keep in mind…just because you don’t like something it doesn’t make it any less valid.

But thanks for joining in and sharing your thoughts.

Maybe, when things get grouped together with race, things get too touchy. Especially since some people may have ulterior motives. It’s glaringly obvious to me that genetics plays a big role in human behavior. Maybe this paticular article is crap.

Is there any good research linking genetics and human behavior? The glaringly obvious stuff are things like a persons “gifted” ability for thinking, sport, languages, etc. Seems like these things would influence human behavior.

Does this also mean the alcoholic/fat gene is garbage as well? Maybe I’ll have to look into this stuff some more…

No, not that it’s all crap, just that while the potential maybe there, it needs the right environment to flourish. See also people genetically disposed to certain ailments, such as bowel cancer, for example. The real danger is that the likes of insurance companies and employers leap all over these genetic predispositions and use them to excluede people considered at higher risk.

HG

[quote=“miltownkid”]Maybe, when things get grouped together with race, things get too touchy. Especially since some people may have ulterior motives. It’s glaringly obvious to me that genetics plays a big role in human behavior. Maybe this paticular article is crap.
Is there any good research linking genetics and human behavior? The glaringly obvious stuff are things like a persons “gifted” ability for thinking, sport, languages, etc. Seems like these things would influence human behavior.
Does this also mean the alcoholic/fat gene is garbage as well? Maybe I’ll have to look into this stuff some more…[/quote]MTK -
Good question. It inspired a quick google query on “genetics role in human behavior” and here is the results.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=ge … gle+Search

Quite a lot to look at. It seems that this is a fertile area of research.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Vorkosigan -
I find your comments to be nothing more than unsupported personal opinions.[/quote]

ROFL.

[quote]The whole “caucasian violence” spiel was cute, but not really of any substance nor relevant to the topic of the article.
It Helps to keep in mind…just because you don’t like something it doesn’t make it any less valid.[/quote]

No problem, then. Define “Maori” and “violence” and operationalize them within a methodological framework - make them useful, Don, instead of merely racist social judgments. Show the biochemical and sociocultural path between the MAO-A gene and cognitive machinery and behavior. In other words, show causation.

What? You can’t? Then, while it is true that my opinions are “unsupported” – well, they are unsupported, except by modern science – yours are simply dreck. Offensively simpleminded and childish dreck, at that.

Michael

No, just the conclusions the researcher draws from it.

Yes. Start with this primer on evolutionary psychology. You might also run keyword searches on sociobiology and on human behavioral ecology.

Michael

[quote=“Vorkosigan”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]Vorkosigan -
I find your comments to be nothing more than unsupported personal opinions.[/quote]ROFL.[/quote]Good…you’re laughing.

[quote]The whole “caucasian violence” spiel was cute, but not really of any substance nor relevant to the topic of the article.
It Helps to keep in mind…just because you don’t like something it doesn’t make it any less valid.[/quote][quote=“Vorkosigan”]No problem, then. Define “Maori” and “violence” and operationalize them within a methodological framework - make them useful, Don, instead of merely racist social judgments.[/quote]Not relevant to this article. The researcher plainly presents his theories based on his studies of genetics. Can you understand this? Look into the monoamine oxidase links to violennt behavior research. [quote=“Vorkosigan”] Show the biochemical and sociocultural path between the MAO-A gene and cognitive machinery and behavior. In other words, show causation.[/quote]Thats what the researcher is hypothisizing. He is asking this question.
And still you jump…lol[quote=“Vorkosigan”]What? You can’t?[/quote]I posted the article as an interesting bit of research. Do you have reading comprehension difficulties?[quote=“Vorkosigan”] Then, while it is true that my opinions are “unsupported”[/quote] As noted.[quote=“Vorkosigan”]" – well, they are unsupported, except by modern science[/quote]So you say. Now be nice and contact the mentioned research scientist and share your ground-breaking conclusions with him. Perhaps save him a lot of further research in this area. Or perhaps not.[quote=“Vorkosigan”]" – yours are simply dreck. Offensively simpleminded and childish dreck, at that.[/quote] Whatever are you on about? I simply posted the article. Save your tiresome delusions of grandeur for someone who feigns to care.[quote=“Vorkosigan”]Michael[/quote]TC.

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Actually Vorkosigan, I totally agree with your point, the whole thing smacks of Eugenics. So the Maori are violent . . one supposes African Americans are very good at running, but not much chop at complicated physics, etc. All been said, and proven to be nonesense, long ago.

HG[/quote]

yea, kinda reminds me of the Jamaican bobsled team. My friend once said that if they built soccer fields in black neighbourhoods, America would dominate soccer. lol.

Thanks for the post Vork.

[quote] VORK: No problem, then. Define “Maori” and “violence” and operationalize them within a methodological framework - make them useful, Don, instead of merely racist social judgments.

TC: Not relevant to this article. The researcher plainly presents his theories based on his studies of genetics. Can you understand this? Look into the monoamine oxidase links to violennt behavior research. [/quote]

I already knew about that, TC. LOL. I’ve been studying this shit for years.

I guess I have to ask again, because the problem evidently isn’t clear to you. (1) What is a Maori? Define, please. (2) What is “violent?” Define, please. Give me useful and operationalizable definitions, not some racist panting after simpleminded links between a single gene and behavior. It’s not clear from the article how Lea defined either of these.

[quote]VORK: Show the biochemical and sociocultural path between the MAO-A gene and cognitive machinery and behavior. In other words, show causation.

TC: Thats what the researcher is hypothisizing. He is asking this question. [/quote]

He’s not hypothesizing. Here’s what he actually said:

From here:

"[i]Dr Rod Lea, a New Zealand researcher, and his colleagues told an Australian genetics conference that Maori men had a “striking over-representation” of monoamine oxidase - dubbed the warrior gene - which they say is strongly associated with aggressive behaviour.

He says the unpublished studies prove that Maoris have the highest prevalence of this strength gene, first discovered by US researchers but never linked to an ethnic group.

This explains how Maoris migrated across the Pacific and survived, said Dr Lea, a genetic epidemiologist at the New Zealand Institute of Environmental Science and Research.[/i]"

Whoa! (1) the studies are unpublished. So we have non-peer-reviewed research as the basis for this claim. (2) single gene causation – not only does it make the Maoris more violent, but it also enabled them to sail across the South Pacific! Hey! Enough MAO-A, and you don’t need navigational skills! Just bull your way across the water. Of course, lots of other groups also migrated across the Pacific…in fact, long migrations are the norm in human history for the last 50 kiloyears. Gosh, do ya think they all had excessive amounts of MAO-A? Or could it be…just maybe…that genetic scientists are really good at figuring out who has what genes, but very bad at linking them to behavior (since that is not their area of expertise?). Naw…it must be true…a scientist said it…it was in the newspaper…so it must be true.

TC, the real issue here is why your bullshit sensor didn’t signal a five alarm fire when you read this.

Oh, and BTW, MAO-A is an enzyme that helps regulate neurotransmitters. It’s NOT.A.GENE. It’s a chemical. The “genetic” basis is in the system that regulates it. The misapprehension is probably in the media, though, not Lea.

Of course you don’t care. That’s why you did a line-by-line attempted fisk of what I wrote, and replied to my posts. Because you don’t care.

LOL.

Michael

Let me pose this to you another way. How did a group which has more anti-social, violent, risk-taking behavior than the human norm manage to cooperate to vault itself across the Pacific Ocean, a task require complex social knowledge and cooperation? See, there’s a hole in Lea’s ideas about as wide as the S Pacific.

…and as a member of the society responsible for Fallujah and Mai Lai and Dresden and Wounded Knee, I’m not really in a position to label one group more violent than others. You want to see violence? Look at your own history.

Michael

Damned right, and guilty I didn’t comment on that earlier. One of the larger classes of antidpepressants are the Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) prescribed for the treatment of depression. They are particularly effective in treating atypical depression, and have also shown efficacy in helping smokers to quit.

HG

Its nice to see our in-house genetics research team has shredded the dickens out of this obviously incredulously wrong-headed paper.

I do hope you will be hooting your derision from the gallery when Dr Rod Lea, a genetic epidemiologist at the New Zealand Institute of Environmental Science and Research, dares to present this at his next conference.

Or better yet, how about an email to the New Zealand Institute of Environmental Science and Research itself!

Lets set this place straight on what research is allowed and what research is not allowed. Lets share the love!

esr.cri.nz/
govt.nz/record?tid=2&recordid=197

TC, please explain to me how Lea’s expertise in genetics gives him expertise in assessing the roots of the Maori migration across the S. Pacific.

Also, I am still waiting to see how “violence” can be defined in a way that is meaningful in such research.

This is just stupid. Nobody said anything about research being allowed or not allowed. Unable to say anything substantive, and unable to even spot the errors in the article, you are now accusing people who disagree with you of censorship. How much further can you sink, TC?

Look, if you’re not able to substantively critique either the articles you post or the responses to them, why not just be silent? Then readers will assign the foolishness to the article, and not to the person who posted it.

Michael

[quote=“Vorkosigan”]TC, please explain to me how Lea’s expertise in genetics gives him expertise in assessing the roots of the Maori migration across the S. Pacific.

Also, I am still waiting to see how “violence” can be defined in a way that is meaningful in such research.

This is just stupid. Nobody said anything about research being allowed or not allowed. Unable to say anything substantive, and unable to even spot the errors in the article, you are now accusing people who disagree with you of censorship. How much further can you sink, TC?

Look, if you’re not able to substantively critique either the articles you post or the responses to them, why not just be silent? Then readers will assign the foolishness to the article, and not to the person who posted it.

Michael[/quote]Vorkosigan -
Nice try.
I post an article for discussion, you attack me and demand I answer your questions about the article.
Sorry laddie, that game doesn’t work with adults.
And yes, you are coming across as a censor by your comments. You don’t like the information you think the article presents so you jump bad ass onto me for posting it. That is censorship. No matter how you wish to spinn it.

Like I said, if you have questions, complaints or bitches about the information you think is incorrectly presented in the article I went so far as to provide you where to send your message.
If you are not able to intelligently present a substantive comment on why you disagree with the information presented by a posted article, I think it is you who should remain silent.
I neither wrote the article, participates in the research nor endorse any of the conclusions the author may be presenting.
And quite honestly, IMO, you’ve made a flying fool out of yourself by this little tirade.

ROFL. Please explain how my pointing out that your article sucks constitutes “censorship.” Is it your position that people should not jump on bogus claims by scientists? Or what?

[quote]Like I said, if you have questions, complaints or bitches about the information you think is incorrectly presented in the article I went so far as to provide you where to send your message.
If you are not able to intelligently present a substantive comment on why you disagree with the information presented by a posted article, I think it is you who should remain silent.[/quote]

I’ve already done that. Rather well. It’s pretty clear that Lea knows his genetics, but hasn’t really thought through anything else he said very well. Of course, the research is unpublished…

Wow! If you backpedal any faster, TC, you’re going to fall right over.

Michael

Getting back to a more civil discussion, here are a few further references to the study of monoamine oxidase levels and violent social activities.

In a most interesting paper (PDF) published in PNAS, a team of researchers from Austria, Italy and USA headed by Andreas Meyer-Lindenberg have uncovered neurobiological factors that contribute significantly to violence in humans. The team studied the normal allelic variation in the X-linked monoamine oxidase A (MAOA) [i]gene, a gene that has also been shown to be associated with impulsive aggression in humans and animals.[/i]…article at link.
Here, monoamine oxidase A, which appears to be the item under review, is clearly referred to as a ‘gene.’
I suspect it was a case of non-familiarity on the original reporter in not specifying this as the correct name.

Also, in this article, we see a specific reference to MAOA as the item under scrutiny.
MAOA Gene and Maori Violence
“Is it any wonder the Maori objected to the inclusion of their DNA in the National Geographic’s The Genographic Project? The latest research produced by New Zealand researcher Dr Rod Lea and his colleagues’ shows a connection between the frequency of specific monoamine oxidase (MAOA) gene variants and certain positive and negative behaviors in the Maori. The MAOA gene has previously been linked to violent behavior and neophilia.”

This clearly emphasizes the need for more precise reporting in scientific, as well as other technical fields.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Getting back to a more civil discussion, here are a few further references to the study of monoamine oxidase levels and violent social activities.

In a most interesting paper (PDF) published in PNAS, a team of researchers from Austria, Italy and USA headed by Andreas Meyer-Lindenberg have uncovered neurobiological factors that contribute significantly to violence in humans. The team studied the normal allelic variation in the X-linked monoamine oxidase A (MAOA) [i]gene, a gene that has also been shown to be associated with impulsive aggression in humans and animals.[/i]…article at link.
Here, monoamine oxidase A, which appears to be the item under review, is clearly referred to as a ‘gene.’
I suspect it was a case of non-familiarity on the original reporter in not specifying this as the correct name.[/quote]

Yes, as I said earlier.

[quote]Also, in this article, we see a specific reference to MAOA as the item under scrutiny.
MAOA Gene and Maori Violence
“Is it any wonder the Maori objected to the inclusion of their DNA in the National Geographic’s The Genographic Project? The latest research produced by New Zealand researcher Dr Rod Lea and his colleagues’ shows a connection between the frequency of specific monoamine oxidase (MAOA) gene variants and certain positive and negative behaviors in the Maori. The MAOA gene has previously been linked to violent behavior and neophilia.”
This clearly emphasizes the need for more precise reporting in scientific, as well as other technical fields.[/quote]

Lea’s research doesn’t show any connection at all. He reports that there is a frequency of gene variants. He does not make any attempt to show a causal link between that and specific behavior or behavioral mechanisms; he merely asserts. The underlying assumption of the article, that the Maori are especially violent – else what would need explaining? – is absurd on its face, and Lea makes no attempt to demonstrate that, though it cries out for demonstrating. Finally, this is completely stupid:

“Maori, being very adventurous individuals as they crossed the Pacific, have carried this gene forward and it was partly responsible for them arriving in New Zealand and surviving.”

How a gene that gives rise to antisocial behavior became crucial in suviving long cooperative endeavours such as voyages and migrations, Lea does not say. No evidence supports Lea’s claim; it is pure adolescent sociology. The author of a review piece on low MAO levels and criminality puts it well:

“Interpretations of the findings reviewed in this article must be cautious, and on guard not to exaggerate their relevance to criminal behavior, however, they are very encouraging to those seeking to find some of the neurological underpinnings of human variations in criminal behavior.”

Lea is not cautious at all. Not for him are the careful elucidations of connections between specific brain chemicals and behavior; no, he leaps right in where angels fear to tread, assuming what needs to be proved (there is something about Maori violence that requires explanation) and attributing great historical events to brain chemical imbalances.

Michael