Pain and animals

Life Pets & Domestic Animals
1

I would imagine the answer is yes, but then that leads to a secondary question, to what extent does the Bull feel pain, and that I suspect is an unknown quantity. Hence my question as to where is the prrof that they feel pain.

Please do not compare to what we as humans might feel, the two cannot be compared, we are not Bulls, and they are nor humans.[/quote]

An opinion born of convenience, methinks. Traveller, it is impossible for anyone to prove that you feel pain. By your ‘logic’, anyone can throw you in an arena and hack away. We could see the gestures of pain and the terror in your eyes, the blood spurting from your injuries, through your nose and out your mouth, but we can never truly know that you are experiencing the same pain and suffering that we know we would endure if we were on the receiving end - so we just carry on?

That’s a very brave argument you are making.

And if we cannot compare to the pain that humans might feel, there is nothing to discuss, surely.

Man has a tendency to always err on the side of convenience in these matters. We are animals. Bulls are animals. Our anatomies are very similar: we each have limbs, eyes, ears, blood, a heart, arteries, lungs, a brain, spinal cord, etc. Because non-human animals are so similar to humans, we use them to test drugs and cosmetics that will be for human use - we say they are similar enough for that, but not similar enough to experience the same pain that our bodies allow us to feel.

To believe that the basic survival tool, pain, is absent in all but humans is an arrogant and ignorant approach to the argument. If an animal can’t feel pain, it will not move away from fire or a sharp object sticking in its side. Loretta has already argued that bulls do indeed feel pain and move away from the source, and thus will not be used for torture later.

The bulls who ‘make it’ to the ring are those I compared to a woman protecting her children - they possess the strength and willpower to endure great amounts of suffering in order to survive or protect. Whether they are aware of the pain at the time of battle is irrelevent, as adrenalin is temporary.

The fact that we hack away at living animals as a form of entertainment says more about our insecurities than anything else. It is no coincindence that bullfighting is popular in traditionally ‘macho’ societies. It helps weak people to feel powerful - they have witnessed man defeating the great beast. The problem is, they cheated.

Traveller, I don’t think you really have an argument. I think you are here to defend your drinking buddy and nothing more. If he was here defending the bull’s rights, I suspect you would be doing the same.

Respond to some of the arguments presented here in defence of the bull. That is what we would all like to see, rather than lame attempts at logic.

Sean

2

SD, we are not talking about drug and cosmetic testing, but bullfighting, so as per an earlier comment made by you i will not take the bait.

Where did i say that only humans felt pain, please go back and actually read what has been written. In response to bob, i said that bulls felt pain, what i questioned is to what extent.

Why that comparison, or is it that it suits your purpose, what is the bull defending, nothing, so the comparison is invalid.

Would hardly call Loretta a drinking buddy, though i do know him, but i am not here defending his point of view, simply stating my own.

Had senisble arguments been presented other than it is just cruel etc, then i might, but these seem to be a little lacking in substance.

Why should we compare it, are they humans.

Why is it that humans are the dominant species on the planet. Perhaps it has something to do with the extent of brain development that has taken place, unlike that of most other animals.

It is that brain development that has led us to experience the levels of pain sensation that we do, i do not accept that the Bull experiences these same levels.

If your stance on this matter were taken to its logical extent, then almost every form of sport involving animals would be banned, from horse racing, to duck shooting, fishing etc, as why should we allow it as we dont for humans.

3

But we are talking about pain.

Well, are you talking about pain or not? Pain is pain is suffering (according to my dictionaries, anyway). Or are you suggesting that having your shoulders speared and your ears hacked off brings about a slight tingling sensation?

Why that comparison, or is it that it suits your purpose, what is the bull defending, nothing, so the comparison is invalid.
[/quote]

You do know what adrenalin is, no? And you don’t think the bull is defending anything? Anything? You don’t think he is defending his mortality? OK, throw in a brave soldier being tortured by his adversary, or a child fighting back against a molester, or anything you want. I think you understand very well the point being made.

Would hardly call Loretta a drinking buddy, though I do know him, but I am not here defending his point of view, simply stating my own.[/quote]

Can I ask you something? Do you believe that no non-human animals experience pain and can suffer, or is it just these bulls that you believe are immune to those sensations? If you can answer these, I can respond better.

Had senisble arguments been presented other than it is just cruel etc, then I might, but these seem to be a little lacking in substance.[/quote]

You mean we should all be making aruments like “We don’t know that bulls feel pain therefore we can hack away and kill them slowly for entertainment because its cultural”?

Suggesting that we are unique amongst animals in that we can experience pain is highly lacking in any substance, don’t you think. “I don’t know therefore I don’t care.” All good, solid arguments. :unamused:

Why should we compare it, are they humans.
[/quote]

Strange logic once again. Are humans animals? Are bulls animals? You have chosen to ignore the fact that our similarities make animals useful for research into human ailments.

This is something I would love to debate more. Before we do, I need you to state in what way you believe humans are ‘the dominant species’ and we will take it from there. I often wonder if other animals, insects, viruses, etc, regard us as the dominant species. This will be a good debate, methinks, and I will happily discuss the matter here or another thread if that is preferred.

Well, you are entitled to your beliefs, of course, especially if that is part of your culture. I choose to follow science on these matters, which tells us that all vertabrates have possess a thalamus, medulla, limbic system, and cortex - all the components that process pain.

The size of the cortex is smaller in non-human animals, with fish, for instance, having a very small and rudimentary cortex. Studies show that fish do alter their behaviour under experience of what should be painful circumstances, however, and, tellingly, this behaviour disappears when the fish are given morphine - indicating that even animals with a rudimentary cortex experience pain and react to painkillers much the same way as humans do. Pain seems to be one of the primary functions of the cortex.

But you feel bulls don’t qualify for this - I respect your culture, Traveller, and you are entitled to your belief … in all its substance.

Actually, the logic is flawed again, as you have taken an argument concerning the glorified torure of a non-human animal and extended it to include matters of non-human animals as food.

I am not against hunting for food - in fact I support it if done in moderation. I do, however, believe that horse racing is exploitative and dangerous. I am certain that one day animals rights will be recognized; we abolished slavery, after all, despite all the ‘not the same as us’ arguments of their day.

Onwards and upwards!

Sean

4

[quote=“Traveller”][…to what extent does the Bull feel pain, and that I suspect is an unknown quantity. Hence my question as to where is the prrof that they feel pain.

Please do not compare to what we as humans might feel, the two cannot be compared, we are not Bulls, and they are nor humans.[/quote]

Bovines do indeed feel pain and experience fear at similar levels that humans do.

5

Both behavioural and physiological measurements have demonstrated that these painful experiences have a detrimental effect on animal welfare…

6

SD, i have already stated that Bulls feel pain, what i questioned was the level, so please stop trying to analyse my posts as saying that they feel nothing or that we are unique. The misrepresentation is unnecessary.

How much they feel, is i believe the point, IF - please note the use of the word IF - all they felt was a mild tingling sensation then sorry, but i believe you lose the argument, though i have no doubt that you and others would disagree. IF however the bulls felt pain to a level approxiamting our own, then i would happily back your stance, hence the reason i asked for proof over the level of pain that bulls felt. anatomy on its own, only proves the potential to feel pain, not the level felt.

I do know what adrenalin is. Why is it that most animals when fighting, realising they are defeated, turn away and move off. If you are walking down the road and get attacked, you initial response is to fight back, but if your attacker is bigger, stronger, better fighter than you, very quickly, the desire for self preservation steps in and the respoinse then is to try and get away, not continue fighting. I speak here generally, not for some individuals that would still carry on. However, compare that if you will, if you had your child with you, and that child was also being attacked, you would continue to fight and preserve your child, even if it meant getting a real good kicking, now do you see the difference between the two.

Hunting for food is one thing, as you say, but not all fishing etc is done purely for food, some of it is done for sport, are you still saying that these sports should not be banned.

7

[quote=“Fox”]bobepine,

Here is my opinion:

[quote]Bullfighting seems to me to be anacronistic. I think a more enlightened understanding of it is as a fairly cruel sport that has been double baked in glamour and glory. It isn’t, however, as cruel as battery hens, and some of the modern couping farming practices.

Since I’ve been in many pens with many bulls, I can tell you from close up they are usually pretty docile animals. The more docile of the bovines, but not always. They’ll charge without provocation in a paddock. It never occurred to me to stand and fight back, though. Two bulls in a paddock will fight and gorge each other severely when they get the wiff of a cow in season. Sometimes they will fight for the heck of it and even when seperated they’ll seek each other out over broken fences to get it on. Watching animals of that size fight is quite awe inspiring and I can understand the fascination. It’s when the call of the wild calls out to you. That that should be celebrated and ritualized in times gone past and ultimately form part of a reflection of our own search for dignity in savagery seems totally understandable to me. There is no dilemma here though, because if tormenting an animal is what’s required for people to find self dignity then in that battle of integrity the bull which fights to the death against unsurmountable odds wins every time.
[/quote]

It hasn’t changed and neither has my opinion about Loretta’s original post was not being trolling. Shit if you can’t promote discussion on a topic what’s the point of a discussion forum.[/quote]Thanks for clarifying your opinion Fox. The quote you posted makes sense to me. If you are talking about Loretta’s original post, I also agree that it can not be interpreted as a troll. I always try to give a poster a chance to clarify his position before jumping to conclusions. I’m more concerned with Loretta’s subsequent posts in which he contradicts himself multiple times as well demonstrated by SD.

More over, earlier in this thread, Loretta is challenging others to make a watertight case and to present their empirical arguments. I think that has been done very well by trapjaw and by straydog but this was his response.

If your going to challenge someone to present their opinion while you won’t be bothered to actually respond to them directly, it’s quite pathetic IMO. Are you having a conversation with the posters here or are you just pulling their leg with long-winded often contradicting opinions which totally disregards other posters arguments. Convenient? It sure is for Mr. Loretta.

I hope he can answer at least one poster now and that’s Tigerman who posed a simple question.[quote=“Tigerman”]Would you enter your dog in a dog fight?

If no, why?[/quote] I doubt Loretta will attempt to answer that question because one answer would suggest that he’s full of shit and the other would suggest that he is not worthy of owning a dog. But whatever, this thread is getting ridiculous because of other comments like this one:[quote]Had senisble arguments been presented other than it is just cruel etc, then I might, but these seem to be a little lacking in substance. [/quote] What more do you need for substance? My god, it is empirical that mammals have nervous systems and that they do experience pain. To what extent? Who gives a shit how badly the animal suffers either it’s a little or a lot?

THis thread will see no good results because the op isn’t after good result, he’s in it to piss people off and get his 15 pages controversial thread. To each his own and that’s my opinion.

I mean for cripes sake have you guys never had any encounters with animals? Have you never had a relation with a pet where you can tell that the animal enjoys a loving hand and a soft voice but will be distressed and uncomfortable with the opposite? Have you ever heard a dog squealing in pain? Have you ever seen the look in the eyes of an animal when it fears for its life?

I have and let me tell you something, it’s not an assuption and asking us animal lovers to prove that an animal actually does feel pain or not as a sole argument supporting Loretta’s non-sense is something I am ashamed to hear. You guys make me ashamed of being…a mammal called a human.

Fuck this!

bobepine

8
9

TM, in neither links does it prove to what extent animals feel pain, where is the scientific prrof.

The second article even goes to state:

The purpose of this review is not to debate this point but animal pain is possibly different to human pain, and can be defined as an “unpleasant sensory and emotional experience” (Bateson 1991).

That rathers leaves the door still wide open, does it not.

10

I don’t see why. Are you saying that because they might feel less pain than humans, then it’s OK to hack them up for a bit of fun or to make some bloke in pink tights feel more of a man?
I disagree.

11

[quote=“Traveller”]TM, in neither links does it prove to what extent animals feel pain, where is the scientific prrof.

The second article even goes to state:

The purpose of this review is not to debate this point but animal pain is possibly different to human pain, and can be defined as an “unpleasant sensory and emotional experience” (Bateson 1991).

That rathers leaves the door still wide open, does it not.[/quote]

Well, I suppose as wide as you would like it to be.

Yes, it appears that there is no way, absent verbal communication and articulation, to measure whether animal pain is similar to human pain.

However, as science and scientists have shown, animal of the higher sort have identical central nervous systems with respect the our abilities to feel pain, and both animals and humans react to painful stimuli in a remarkably similar manner.

Now, we cannot prove the level of pain that animals feel because they cannot verbalize the same.

But, honestly, what do you think?

12

[quote=“Traveller”]SD, I have already stated that Bulls feel pain, what i questioned was the level, so please stop trying to analyse my posts as saying that they feel nothing or that we are unique. The misrepresentation is unnecessary.

How much they feel, is I believe the point, IF - please note the use of the word IF - all they felt was a mild tingling sensation then sorry, but I believe you lose the argument, though I have no doubt that you and others would disagree. IF however the bulls felt pain to a level approxiamting our own, then I would happily back your stance, hence the reason I asked for proof over the level of pain that bulls felt. anatomy on its own, only proves the potential to feel pain, not the level felt.

I do know what adrenalin is. Why is it that most animals when fighting, realising they are defeated, turn away and move off. If you are walking down the road and get attacked, you initial response is to fight back, but if your attacker is bigger, stronger, better fighter than you, very quickly, the desire for self preservation steps in and the respoinse then is to try and get away, not continue fighting. I speak here generally, not for some individuals that would still carry on. However, compare that if you will, if you had your child with you, and that child was also being attacked, you would continue to fight and preserve your child, even if it meant getting a real good kicking, now do you see the difference between the two.

Hunting for food is one thing, as you say, but not all fishing etc is done purely for food, some of it is done for sport, are you still saying that these sports should not be banned.[/quote]

Merriam-Webster’s
Pain
2 a : usually localized physical suffering associated with bodily disorder (as a disease or an injury); also : a basic bodily sensation induced by a noxious stimulus, received by naked nerve endings, characterized by physical discomfort (as pricking, throbbing, or aching), and typically leading to evasive action

So, we agree that they suffer? That is the point I was making - you say it depends on the degree of pain. But pain = suffering, right? Even if, as you say, it is unlikely that being speared consistently, forced to twist and turn with a sword embedded in your heart and lungs, and having your ears cut off while still conscious are likely to hurt anything but an animal very much, it is still pain. And pain is suffering.

So, is your argument that these bulls do not run therefore do not feel pain? Watch the videos. See how even some of those who didn’t run in the selection process did flee into the crowd - it’s all there and documented. Only some bulls stay and fight, as do only some humans.

I don’t understand you repeating my point about defending a child and then asking if I understand the difference - I genuinly do not understand your argument. That is the case I was making - now you are making the same one??? Maybe I’m not reading your post properly, to be fair.

You’re saying that I do not believe that blood sports shouldn’t be banned? I’m really confused now, Traveller. Whatever gave you that impression??? I am flummoxed with that one! I truly do not understand your current standpoint on all this.

Can you respond to my query re. in what way you see humans as ‘the dominant species’? I really want to pursue that one.

Sean

13

[quote=“bobepine”][quote=“Tigerman”]Would you enter your dog in a dog fight?

If no, why?[/quote] I doubt Loretta will attempt to answer that question because one answer would suggest that he’s full of shit and the other would suggest that he is not worthy of owning a dog.[/quote]

I will answer that question, if the dog i had was one that i had bred / trained to fight, then yes, if the dog was a family pet then no, as there is likely to be an attachment in both directions between the family and the dog.

14

What a crock of shit.
Ever worked a branding?
Trust me, Traveller, there’s no question whether bovines are experiencing pain like we do, they act pretty much the same way YOU would having a mark indelibly seared into your flesh, not to mention having your fuckin cojones lopped off…if it ain’t the same, it’s close enough…
So yeah, if you are seriously contending that the corrida is defensible since their level of suffering is less than ours, you’re totally talking out of your ass…but I suspect that you’re more interested in arguing for its own sake.

15

[quote=“bobepine”]I mean for cripes sake have you guys never had any encounters with animals? Have you never had a relation with a pet where you can tell that the animal enjoys a loving hand and a soft voice but will be distressed and uncomfortable with the opposite? Have you ever heard a dog squealing in pain? Have you ever seen the look in the eyes of an animal when it fears for its life?

I have and let me tell you something, it’s not an assuption and asking us animal lovers to prove that an animal actually does feel pain or not as a sole argument supporting Loretta’s non-sense is something I am ashamed to hear. You guys make me ashamed of being…a mammal called a human. [/quote]

bobepine, i have had many relationships with dogs, and yes i have heard animals squealing in pain, and had this thread been about dog fighting or similar i would have sided with your side without having to think.

But the thread is about bull fighting. Have you actually ever been to a bull fight, i suspect not due to your feelings etc, but for an animal that can be quite vocal when required, the bulls are surprisingly quiet, leaving aside the hard breathing.

Unless you have seen scientific evidence, which is the poroof i am asking for, showing that bulls feel pain, then your comments that it does are very much an assumption, not proved by fact.

16

going by Traveller’s mention that there may not be a correlation between human pain and animal pain, the conclusion assumed is the animal may feel less pain.

Actually, it could be more.

17

I have. The bulls were anything but quiet. They screamed, most of them, when the pics went in and moaned when the swords went in. Except for one, which only kind of whistled and spewed blood on account of the sword had punctured its lung or severed its bronchial tubes or something.
Were the animals suffering and in pain?
Well, gee, I just, you know… I dunno. :loco:

18

What a crock of shit.
Ever worked a branding?
Trust me, Traveller, there’s no question whether bovines are experiencing pain like we do, they act pretty much the same way YOU would having a mark indelibly seared into your flesh, not to mention having your fuckin cojones lopped off…if it ain’t the same, it’s close enough…
So yeah, if you are seriously contending that the corrida is defensible since their level of suffering is less than ours, you’re totally talking out of your ass…but I suspect that you’re more interested in arguing for its own sake.

(Bumped for page)

19

Not entirely true, although i do like playing devils advocate from time to time.

20

Not entirely true, although I do like playing devils advocate from time to time.[/quote]Not entirely? Geez thanks for playing! What is going on here?

bobepine