This dog doesn’t look like he’s in any pain, eh, Traveller?
[quote=“Animal Exploitation”] In our opinion, people who train dogs to fight and kill one another, and those who support such events, or allow them to exist, are morally and ethically bankrupted. They are a blight on our society.
[/quote]
This dog doesn’t look like he’s in any pain, eh, Traveller?
[quote=“Animal Exploitation”] In our opinion, people who train dogs to fight and kill one another, and those who support such events, or allow them to exist, are morally and ethically bankrupted. They are a blight on our society.
[/quote][/quote]
TM, could not agree with you more.
As I used to teach my psychology students at university, there is very solid evidence that mammals feel pain in exactly the same way we do and to the same extent (it is not in dispute except for invertebrates and certain classes of lower vertibrates). Mammals have the same pain-processing peripheral and central nervous system structures, as well as the same endocrinal and behavioral responses to pain. The same pain-specific structures and pain-related responses – what more proof do you need, a talking bull? :loco:
The same primitive neural structures collate and augment nociceptive (pain) information in the bull as in us, including in the brain’s medulla, thalamus and limbic system. We don’t have any significant differences in these areas to support an inference that bulls experience pain less than we do or in a qualitatively different way either. Given that other mammals, like bulls, have the same nociceptive structures and react to pain with the same extremes of physical and vocal expression and other behaviors as we do (squealing, struggling, fighting etc.), I find it hard to believe that any thinking person would question whether other mammals feel pain to the same extent we do (unless they’re just trying to provoke a reaction)…
I think the point about animals feeling pain is better made in reference to hunting. My brother is a serious hunter, trapper, fisherman and taxidermist. He bowhunts deer, and once he and I sat down and watched a “learning video” on how to bowhunt. The guy on the tape shot the deer right through the chest. It dropped and lay there waiting to die. I said, “Holy shit, that’s cruel.” He said, “Not really. The deer is in shock and feels little pain.”
I used to work in an ER and saw many a gunshot victim. A guy shot in the foot was screaming like 914 at a buffet. The woman shot four times in the chest by State Troopers was calm and lucid (until she blacked out).
Is the bull high on adrenaline? Yes, certainly. Is it in shock from a serious wound? No.
Torturing animals is stupid. Torturing animals for entertainment is evil.
Bull/dog/cock fighting is a evil cult. 
This dog doesn’t look like he’s in any pain, eh, Traveller?
[quote=“Animal Exploitation”] In our opinion, people who train dogs to fight and kill one another, and those who support such events, or allow them to exist, are morally and ethically bankrupted. They are a blight on our society.
[/quote][/quote]
TM, could not agree with you more.[/quote]Then why did you respond that you would put your dog through this if he was bred for it? Are you trolling too?
bobepine
[quote=“Traveller”]
bobepine, I have had many relationships with dogs, and yes I have heard animals squealing in pain, and had this thread been about dog fighting or similar I would have sided with your side without having to think.
But the thread is about bull fighting. Have you actually ever been to a bull fight, I suspect not due to your feelings etc, but for an animal that can be quite vocal when required, the bulls are surprisingly quiet, leaving aside the hard breathing.
Unless you have seen scientific evidence, which is the poroof I am asking for, showing that bulls feel pain, then your comments that it does are very much an assumption, not proved by fact.[/quote]Ok so you fellows in support of Loretta here as well as Loretta are saying that we shouldn’t compare animals to people.(Not that Loretta isn’t doing it himself when it helps his argument…)But can we actually compare four-legged mammals to other four legged mammals?
You don’t make any sense to me and your position is a stubborn and uneducated one as far as I can tell. If you had experiences with dogs and would agree with me if the conversation was about dogs then explain to me why you posted that you would put a dog through a dog fight if it was bred for it just to agree with Tigerman minutes later that it is wrong to do so? Do you see the contradiction here?
Can you please stop changing your opinion here and actually have the integrity to follow up on what you post instead of changing your position as it best suits your argument like Loretta?
And if you agree with Tigerman, could you please answer his question again because you’ve got two conflicting answer to that question so far. It smells fishy.
Would you put your dog through a dog fight even if it was bred for it? If not, why?
bobepine
[quote=“Truant”]going by Traveller’s mention that there may not be a correlation between human pain and animal pain, the conclusion assumed is the animal may feel less pain.
Actually, it could be more.[/quote]That’s very true and well pointed. But who gives a shit, they are only animals… :loco:
bobepine
[quote=“bobepine”][quote=“Truant”]going by Traveller’s mention that there may not be a correlation between human pain and animal pain, the conclusion assumed is the animal may feel less pain.
Actually, it could be more.[/quote]That’s very true and well pointed. But who gives a shit, they are only animals… :loco:
bobepine[/quote]
but the thing is this, even if it could be measured that animals feel pain at different levels to humans (and it can’t) then how on earth does that justify inflicting pain on animals for human entertainment.
Where would you draw the line:
They feel 40% of human pain therefore being cruel is ok?
They feel 90% of human pain therefore being cruel is not ok?
To me, the discussion of how much pain an animal feels comapred to a human is TOTALLY irrelevant.
This dog doesn’t look like he’s in any pain, eh, Traveller?
[quote=“Animal Exploitation”] In our opinion, people who train dogs to fight and kill one another, and those who support such events, or allow them to exist, are morally and ethically bankrupted. They are a blight on our society.
[/quote][/quote]
TM, could not agree with you more.[/quote]Then why did you respond that you would put your dog through this if he was bred for it? Are you trolling too?
bobepine[/quote]
Bob,
Very simple, if i had bred and trained a dog in that way, then i would not give a damn, and would enter the dog into the arena.
However, as i have not bred and trained a dog in that way, because i do give a damn, then i have not entered it into the arena.
Please remove the redmist from your eyes.
Traveller - how “scientific” does the proof that bulls feel pain in a similar manner to other mammals need to be? You’ve already stated that you agree that dogs are capable of feeling pain in fairly severe degrees, but still refuse to believe that a bull, another 4 legged mammal, is incapable of feeling much sensation. Which is why it’s ok to torture it.
Well, despite everything that people have said here, and the fact that the basic biological structure of a bull enables it feel pain in a very similar manner, if not the same, as we would experience it, you still seem to believe that it’s impossible for a bull to experience any significant levels of pain.
Alrighty then.
Even so, what gives us, as beings capable of contemplating reason, philosophy, ethics and morals, the right to torture and kill something in a clearly very unfair fight? I would really like to hear something other than points about pain, and the bull not running away (which clearly DOES happen in many cases). Somebody, justify bullfighting to me on philosophical, ethical, and moral levels please. And don’t just counter and twist things people have already said.
[quote=“bobepine”]But can we actually compare four-legged mammals to other four legged mammals?
You don’t make any sense to me and your position is a stubborn and uneducated one as far as I can tell. If you had experiences with dogs and would agree with me if the conversation was about dogs then explain to me why you posted that you would put a dog through a dog fight if it was bred for it just to agree with Tigerman minutes later that it is wrong to do so? Do you see the contradiction here?
Can you please stop changing your opinion here and actually have the integrity to follow up on what you post instead of changing your position as it best suits your argument like Loretta?
And if you agree with Tigerman, could you please answer his question again because you’ve got two conflicting answer to that question so far. It smells fishy.
Would you put your dog through a dog fight even if it was bred for it? If not, why?
bobepine[/quote]
Bob,
My position has not changed, what i do not do though, as you appear to do, is throw all animals into one category for defining how they should or should not be treated, ino that is over simplifying the whole thing.
IMO, not all four legged animals are the same, just as not all two legged animals are the same.
[quote=“Traveller”]
However, as I have not bred and trained a dog in that way, because I do give a damn, then I have not entered it into the arena.
Please remove the redmist from your eyes.[/quote]
Why do you give a damn? Please answer sincerely.
Please provide me with solid, scientific proof that bulls and dogs experience pain in a significantly different manner.
[quote=“trapjaw”]Traveller - how “scientific” does the proof that bulls feel pain in a similar manner to other mammals need to be? You’ve already stated that you agree that dogs are capable of feeling pain in fairly severe degrees, but still refuse to believe that a bull, another 4 legged mammal, is incapable of feeling much sensation. Which is why it’s ok to torture it.
Well, despite everything that people have said here, and the fact that the basic biological structure of a bull enables it feel pain in a very similar manner, if not the same, as we would experience it, you still seem to believe that it’s impossible for a bull to experience any significant levels of pain.
Alrighty then. [/quote]
Trapjaw, i have not said it was impossible, i just questioned the level looking for proof that it could feel as much as some people are claiming, nothing more than that.
If no one can provide the proof, i have no idea whether it exists or not, then everyones position is primarily based on an assumption, that might or might not be correct.
The Chief is the only one so far that has provided an example, albeit not outright proof, that bovines feel more than a little when they get branded or castrated.
It’s ok to eat fish, cause they don’t have any feelings…Kurt Cobain
I hope we can calm down a bit gents, and continue this very interesting discussion civily. 
bumping this:
Traveller - how “scientific” does the proof that bulls feel pain in a similar manner to other mammals need to be? You’ve already stated that you agree that dogs are capable of feeling pain in fairly severe degrees, but still refuse to believe that a bull, another 4 legged mammal, is incapable of feeling much sensation. Which is why it’s ok to torture it.
Well, despite everything that people have said here, and the fact that the basic biological structure of a bull enables it feel pain in a very similar manner, if not the same, as we would experience it, you still seem to believe that it’s impossible for a bull to experience any significant levels of pain.
Alrighty then.
Even so, what gives us, as beings capable of contemplating reason, philosophy, ethics and morals, the right to torture and kill something in a clearly very unfair fight? I would really like to hear something other than points about pain, and the bull not running away (which clearly DOES happen in many cases). Somebody, justify bullfighting to me on philosophical, ethical, and moral levels please. And don’t just counter and twist things people have already said.
[quote=“trapjaw”][quote=“Traveller”]
However, as I have not bred and trained a dog in that way, because I do give a damn, then I have not entered it into the arena.
Please remove the redmist from your eyes.[/quote]
Why do you give a damn? Please answer sincerely.
Please provide me with solid, scientific proof that bulls and dogs experience pain in a significantly different manner.[/quote]
Trapjaw,
I am always upfront and honest, even if others don’t like the response.
Due to the pain and anguish that these dogs go through. The only reason a person would go is to watch the blood and gore being flung around the ring. It is a barbaric sport.
I cannot, as i have no scientific proof of how either dogs or bulls experience pain, you forget, i was looking for the scientific proof earlier, at least in regard to the bulls.
What i would say though, as this is likely to be the comeback from your side as so to speak, that dog fighting and bull fighting are not the same. If bull fighting was bull against bull to the death just as a spectacle for us to watch, i would be happily standing in your corner, but it is not, most of the crowd are there to watch the skill etc of the matador.
I do not put all animals into one category for determining their rights as so to speak, but into several, and as far as i am concerned that determines what is or is not acceptable.
I have no problem with a bovine being treated quite differently to a dog.
Is that sincere enough for you.
So you’re saying you find it perfectly acceptable to torture a bull to death because it’s done “skillfully?”
Torturing an animal for fun is some seriously fucked up shit, whatever kind of animal it is, IMO.
But, you do have scientific evidence that bulls, dogs and humans all experience pain in the same physiological manner, i.e., that the central nervous systems of bulls, dogs and humans are identical with respect to the feeling and experiencing of pain.
You also have scientific proof that bulls, dogs and humans all react remarkably similar when they experience stimuli that would normally cause pain in humans.
So, no, there is no proof that dogs and bulls experience pain in exactly the same way that humans do. However, there is ample scientific evidence to reasonably support the belief that in fact they do experience pain in a similar if not identical manner that we humans do… and there is also scientific evidence to support the notion that due to the more developed senses that animals generally possess, that bulls and dogs actually experience pain in a more acutely unpleasant manner than do humans.
Thus, while there is no proof either that bulls and dogs experience more or less pain than do we humans, there is ample scientific evidence to support the notion that bulls and dogs experience pain more acutely than or in a similar manner to humans.
On what scientific evidence do you base your belief that dogs and bulls experience pain to a lesser degree than do we humans?
Sure, cows are different from dogs.
Chickens are different from horses, too.
But you’re on a pretty slippery slope there once you start quantifying this sort of thing, as I’m sure you’d realize if you stepped back a little, you seem like a fairly clever young man.
So what you mean is that the amount of suffering tolerable in a specie is inversely proportional to its…what, exactly?
Taxonomical proximity to humans?
So you can hurt a turtle more than you would a muskrat, 'cause it ain’t a mammal?
And it’s OK to hurt a cat worse than you would a chimp (sorry, SAF), because it’s a quadriped?
Wait a minute!
Why stop there?
Hey, what about gypsies, they got practically nothing in common with us, right?
I dig chicks, so I think it’s OK for me to hurt a fella that’s into boys more than I would Tigerman, who’s also hetero.
How 'bout them retards??
Boy, we could go all night with this one…
But, you do have scientific evidence that bulls, dogs and humans all experience pain in the same physiological manner, i.e., that the central nervous systems of bulls, dogs and humans are identical with respect to the feeling and experiencing of pain.
You also have scientific proof that bulls, dogs and humans all react remarkably similar when they experience stimuli that would normally cause pain in humans.
So, no, there is no proof that dogs and bulls experience pain in exactly the same way that humans do. However, there is ample scientific evidence to reasonably support the belief that in fact they do experience pain in a similar if not identical manner that we humans do… and there is also scientific evidence to support the notion that due to the more developed senses that animals generally possess, that bulls and dogs actually experience pain in a more acutely unpleasant manner than do humans.
Thus, while there is no proof either that bulls and dogs experience more or less pain than do we humans, there is ample scientific evidence to support the notion that bulls and dogs experience pain more acutely than or in a similar manner to humans.
On what scientific evidence do you base your belief that dogs and bulls experience pain to a lesser degree than do we humans?[/quote]
TM
With regard to the physiological makeup of the central nervous system, then i am not going to argue on that point, the difference i have suggested, and no i do not have proof, but neither does proof exist the other way round, is the way that a bull’s brain reacts to that stimuli and interprets the message.
If as you seem to believe that bovines should be treated at least in the same manner as dogs, if not humans, why do we allow branding, insertion of nose rings. Why are bovines allowed to be cut up and served as food, whilst dogs and humans are not (leaving aside china on dogs). Why is it that bovines can be minced down virtually into dust but this is not acceptable for dogs and other animals.
Taking your logic further, if all animals are the same, why do we allow battery farming of hens etc, why is it ok for you to have and allow differing standards for differing animals, but not for others just because their standards are maybe a little different from yours.
Please explain.
