Pan-Blue 319 Shooting Committee Chicanery

Wolf,

[quote=“wolf_reinhold”]ac-dropout wrote:

I’ll give you the third degree…[/quote]

Not the comfy chair. You promised. Not the comfy chair.

steve101,

This is the same Legislature that decided to pass the referendum. So I believe a number of unbelievable things can make it pass ROC Legislature.

The problem being, should not the process be allowed to resolved these issues within Legislature. Instead of it going through Executive review prior to High Court constitutional hearing.

Now the government is running on parallel tracks. 319 committee has started its meeting. The Executive Branch refuses to fund it. The pan-Green refuses appoint people to the committee. The pan-Blue get to make more statues and laws because the pan-Green are not participating to oppose.

Even the Constitutional hearing is stall because the Pan-Blue won’t send anyone to debate for their side of the committee.

Doesn’t this set a bad precedent on how to resolve partisan issues for future ROC politicians?

[quote=“ac_dropout”]steve101,

This is the same Legislature that decided to pass the referendum. So I believe a number of unbelievable things can make it pass ROC Legislature.
[/quote]

If you have reasons to believe that the referendum bill is unconstitutional or unreasonable, start a thread to spell out your reasonings. Otherwise it’s just irrelevant rants that has nothing to do with the topic nor proves any points. Not mentioning that the DDP/TSU has never gain the majority in the Legislature so I really wonders which side deserves more blame in Legislations. The version of the referendum law was proposed and passed through by the KMT. The only question was how it was used, but the KMT did not wish to challenge the constitutionality of such usage in court.

Under Lien’s leadership, the KMT refuse to negotiate anything rational within the Legislature, turned down the prior proposed statute from the green camp which was very favorable for the opposition, then forcefully rape through the Legislation with their majority. Once that’s got through, the only option left within the process is for an Executive review then the High Court hearing.

Since the Executive review is also turned down because of KMT’s advantage within Legislation, the only question left is what to do between now till the Constitutional hearing. Should the committee be funded? Should people obey the committee when or if they are summoned to a questioning?

As carson has pointed out that the blue camp had legislated into bestowing themselves the judiciary power to solve a political dispute. What’s more is that they had voted into granting themselves powers higher than our judiciary system. And if you read through this statute’s individual articles, you can realize what kind of effect it can have, even to the blue camp supporters, if the ruling party choose to enact it.

For example, we all know that any judicial investigations must be carried out in adherence to the Code of Criminal Procedure to protect human rights via legitimate legal procedures. But Article 8 of this statute says that the task force is not subject to nor restricted by any of these codes or any other laws. This clearly violates the rights for a fair trial and investigation.

Under Article 13, the statute also gives the task force the power to nullify court’s ruling. So instead of just having the investigative power, the task force can also act as the judge, these kinds of power is beyond any prosecutors. The task force also gives itself the power to limit the President or anyone else’s freedom to travel oversea under Article 8, even if such traveling is for official purposes. Normally only a judge can limit someone freedom to travel oversea and such judgments requires normal legal procedures, nor do I believe this Judiciary power applies to the President. This statute is not only trying to overturn all the laws and procedures, it also challenges everyone’s constitutionally protected freedom.

It is also a basic knowledge that under the Code of Criminal Procedure, the investigators can not just bust into someone’s house searching for evidences, simply based on their mere suspicions, that will be illegal and these obtained evidences can not be used during the trial. Under the law they will have to first obtain a search warrant from the court in order to make these actions legal. But the task force wish to bypass these kinds of regulations from what they declared in Article 8.

We know that when the police ask you to come for a questioning, you do not have to go nor answer any questions. They will then have to submit enough evidence to get a court order to make an arrest or detaining. Even when you are arrested, you still have the right to remain silent and the right to contact a lawyer. But again under Article 8, it says that the task force can question anyone or ask anyone for their cooperation without getting a court order. You do not have the right to remain silent to any of their questions or can be fined up to 1 million dollar, and such fine is repeatable. Simply put, anyone who is being questioned by such task force is not protected by any laws at all. We also know that the police can not force someone to take a lie detector (polygraph) test, nor are these results admissible at trial. The task force again wish to bypass these regulations, strip your from all your rights, then later used these illegally obtained statements against you.

Besides these violations and abuse of the Judiciary power, the committee also manage to give itself the power of Executive Yuan and Control Yuan. Usually the executive branch of the government draft and decides on the budget bills then sent it to the Legislative Yuan for approval and passage. The Legislative Yuan itself does not have the sole power to decide what budget to spend. But this task force can somehow decides on it’s own budget and supposedly this proposed budget does not need to the approval from the Legislative Yuan or anyone else, nor does the Legislative or Executive has the right to refuse it, nor is there a limit to it’s amount. I am assuming check and balances doesn’t need to exist.

We have a 5 branch government system and the Pan-Blue majority Legislative Yuan has basically declared itself to withhold all of power 4 branches out of 5. The only branch of government system that hadn’t breached yet is the Examination Yuan.

There is no way we can participate in such a committee. What if we were to fully utilize these article’s power against the Pan-Blue camp, arresting, fining, questioning, and abusing all of their protested members since that’s so conveniently (and supposedly) legal to do so under the statute? How then can the government let these kinds of actions get carried out at the blatant disregard of any individual rights?

Also, since it is almost guaranteed that the Grand Justices will overturn these statute, thereby makes these committee’s actions unconstitutional and also illegal. How then should the participating member’s actions be punished according to the law?

That’s great, they started it and get what they sow. It is perfectly legal for the Executive to refuse to fund such a institution.

It’s in their right to refuse to appoint anyone, it even says so in the articles. it is perfectly understandable that they wouldn’t want to do something that’s obvious illegal then later get prosecuted for.

To enact more statutes and laws such as this, they will have to go through the same legislative fiasco in the Legislative Yuan, showing their stupidities to the public as they loose more support. And their high time with the Legislation is about to end very soon, in about 2 month.

They might want to stall the hearing but they can’t stop it. Besides, what excuse they have to stalling the Constitutional hearing if they have confidence in the statue they passed? Wouldn’t that make their stance weaker and seemingly more contradictory?

Agreed, that’s why it should not be allowed to go through. The KMT members should learn to respect the laws, which they passed themselves, a little bit more.

This should be great for the DPP candidates for the December elections. So your elected officials had to haul the statute back to the legislature to fix the part that are “troublesome”? So they KNEW that they were passing a constitutionally flawed bill. They were complicit in the formation and promulgation (remember the override of the “veto”) of an illegal piece of legislation.
Oh no? Why else did they bring it back unless they KNEW that is wouldn’t get past the Council of Grand Justices? They knew.
What a bloody waste of time in the legislature and a squandering of my tax dollars.

The law that allows this to happen, specify only when the ROC is under immediate threat can a referendum by initiated by executive order occur.

Okay it been 50 years now since ROC capital moved to Taiwan, and about 6 months after the election. Do you see the manifestation of this immediate threat. Unless you consider the LP situation to be an immediate threat, but then that would require the questions to be about censorship and not arms purchases.

Not to mention the referendum occurs simultaneously with the presidential election. Some countries have laws about this, since obviously they had the foresight or experience to see these things can be used as political tools.

Unless someone has the voting record for everyone on the issue and how it passed. I just assume it is one of those quirks in ROC legislature.

That’s how opposition legislature system works. Opposing sides politically maneuver and adding their interest in to bills; forming alliances, etc.

Could this be a case where pan-Green side cannot admit political defeat?

Perhaps they had knowledge that the corruption involved some powerful and influential people. Since they are as verse as anyone with Taiwan law and loopholes, perhaps this is the right thing to do for this particular case.

However, this should have been addressed on the Legislature floor, not via executive review and High court hearings. Since this sets a bad precedent for all future laws and motions passed by Legislature.

White terror again. I don’t think so. Perhaps a cleaning up of Black Gold issues along with finding out the truth about 319 is what is most likely going to happen.

So if pan-Green joined the committee, probably only the most abrasive and uncivilized individuals who cannot form a successful political alliances will be targeted.

Could it be that they don’t trust the “random computer” to select an impartial judge anymore. But since the committee was suppose to be made up of individuals of extreme political bias, perhaps that was the balance in the system.

Under extremely conditions where there is a high risk of flight, evidence destruction, witness intimidation, etc. The chronological order of warrant, notification, and search is not necessarily done in that order.

There have been cases where notification is the last thing done. There have been cases were warrants have been issued in closed secret courts. There have been cases where results of searches done outside government bodies are first done.

Those cases are tried under Criminal Prosecuting Procedure not Constitutional hearings.

Once again police have every right to intimidate or trick you to confessing to a crime whether you’re under arrest or not. Sure hypothetically once you ask for a lawyer the game is suppose to stop. But the people involved are not common street criminals, so why treat them as such.

They politically maneuvered themselves in the open and transparent process of the Legislature. There are many instances of redundant responsibility in government. That is what “big government” is all about.

Of course it is legal, they are the Legislature, they pass laws.
I lived through a number of stupid laws on Taiwan that really effected my individual life to pursue happiness. No plastic bags, No video games, No legal prostitutes. (well not in that order)

I suspect I will never be directly effected by the 319 committee. The only people who have to fear it, are politicians that have something to hide from the public.

But Wolf, shouldn’t we address the more important question, such as ac’s complaints about the lack of funding for the committee? The last thing I heard from the news was that they got 10 people cramped into a 5 square feet office, with office sign that’s made out of cardboard, and are asking people to donate 1000NT each for the great cause, what a touching moment :blush:

Interested in donating them some pocket change? :smiley:

I am starting to see what these guys are up to from reading ac’s posts. It’s like they have Tourette Syndrome during a fit of diarrhea. Yaking to hear the rocks in their head rattle.
Irrespective, this commission will certainly be struck down by the Justices unless it is evicerated, and then it will be back to the handful of sore losers sitting out in front of the KMT headquarters – except they get an office and a title.

oh…i see the reasoning now…everything is “legal” if you are the law-making body, and you pass it as a law or statute. because, afterall, there are NO other branches in the government that should have the power to challenge or balance the power of the legislature. that is, only if the legislature happens to have a blue majority. so while every other branch of the government is subject to the constitution (which, i read a long time ago, might just happen to be the law of the land), the legislature should have the right to ignore it when it feels like it, or more specifically, when they just really really think the president is a poo poo head and really really want their own blue buddies to have power. brilliant.

so now the blue balls think that they, not the constitution, are the ultimate authority of law in taiwan. wonderful. this show is getting better, and it would be really entertaining if it wasn’t so sad. self-appointed dictators demanding absolute power in taiwan. can you imagine that happening in the US?

this committee will ultimately be told by the court to sit down and shut up.

and ma “i-wear-short-shorts” ying jiou’s recent comments on this matter are just comical. as a potential future presidential candidate, he best keep a low profile on this matter, lest he be dragged down with it.

[quote=“carson71”]
and ma “i-wear-short-shorts” ying jiou’s recent comments on this matter are just comical. as a potential future presidential candidate, he best keep a low profile on this matter, lest he be dragged down with it.[/quote]

did he offer to be their messenger boy?

Well given the division in Taiwan politics. I would think that the system would allow some pan-Blue and pan-Green interest to move forward. If it was only all pan-Blue or only all pan-Green interest that ever moved forward, then I would be really concerned.

The greatest concern I have now is that both sides are acting with little regards of the framework that makes a government functional.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]
The greatest concern I have now is that both sides are acting with little regards of the framework that makes a government functional.[/quote]

You just got this concern now? That has been the blue strategy ever since Chen was first elected.