Pardon my funny thot about Taiwan Independence

I don’t know how exactly how the Dutch did it. But judging by “Spaniards in Taiwan” the Spanish went through a pretty lengthy process. I also don’t think either the Dutch or Spanish considered they had control over the entire island. They expand by repeating the process on a tribe by tribe bases. But yes, I agree it was mostly a show. But since Aboriginals were not considered to have statehood, therefore no actual sovereignty, it was the least the Europeans could do.

Come to think of it, since Tainan was the capital of Dutch Taiwan (until they were driven out and then moved to Taipei and Tamsui), it is perfectly appropriate that the team color of the Tainan’s professional baseball team, Tainan Lions, is orange.

Anyway, I think the Dutch gave up their claim when they willingly gave up their position in Northern Taiwan.[/quote]

I didn’t know the Dutch simply retreated to the north and left on their own accord. Thanks for the bit of information. But I wonder if they really didn’t want to leave, but did so in order to save face. It must have been pretty humiliating at the time to be a Western power losing to an Asian military force. If that’s the case, by standard Chinese cultural norms, they didn’t willingly give up anything and still have rightful historical claim, at least to Tainan.

[quote=“louisfriend”]

I didn’t know the Dutch simply retreated to the north and left on their own accord. Thanks for the bit of information. But I wonder if they really didn’t want to leave, but did so in order to save face. It must have been pretty humiliating at the time to be a Western power losing to an Asian military force. If that’s the case, by standard Chinese cultural norms, they didn’t willingly give up anything and still have rightful historical claim, at least to Tainan.[/quote]

The Dutch at first wished to work with the Manchurians and drive out Koxinga from Taiwan. They were defeated in 1664 at Kimmon (Jing-Men). But the Dutch held on to Tamsui and Northern Taiwan in the hopes that they could do business with the Manchurians. Koxinga and his son sent troops to route them, but they were unsuccessful (Zheng family were much better at naval warfare, they were pirates after all). Since Qing adopted the same embargo policy for all coastal areas, eventually there was just no economic reasons to stay. So the Dutch left Taiwan for good in 1668.

What is a registered state?

Are you arguing that statehood depends upon UN recognition or some registration at the UN? :ponder:[/quote]

I don’t need to argue.

Taiwan can declare it is a ‘state’ without UN recognition and see for yourself… then you’d find out.

Before 1945 and after 1945 is a major difference for governments and lands.

Argue for what? LOL~

Why do people keep responding to this 網絡評論員, wǎnglù pínglùn yuán troll?

It’s obvious he is pushing a mainland Chinese agenda.

He has stated clearly that China belongs to mainland Chinese and that Taiwan is part of China and therefore also belongs to mainland Chinese.

He disrespects Han residents of Taiwan while calling them his ‘sons’.

He has no respect for the indigenous inhabitants of Taiwan, disregards facts of history, and shows an inability to found and defend a logical argument.

Among many of his fallacious arguments he suggests that: my son is not my son unless I can produce a legal document to prove it; if I sell my house, my descendants can take it back after I die.

This is typical of the brainwashed masses who were ‘re-educated’ in the prisons of the Cultural Revolution. They were subjected to an Orwellian nightmare of double-think:

[quote]To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself – that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word ‘doublethink’ involved the use of doublethink. ”
“ The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them… To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.[/quote]

Only such a regime as the PRC can produce the kind of thinking that the 網絡評論員 has displayed. For example, the 網絡評論員 suggests that if I sell my property, my descendants can take it back… for people who live in a free country like Taiwan, this may seem oxymoronic, but for a 網絡評論員 it makes sense because there is no real individual ownership of land in the PRC. You can only purchase usage rights: the land belongs to the state.

Lolz, mentally ill line of reasoning.[/quote]

Exactly. The line ‘the son is forever yours’ is typical of mainland Chinese thinking.

Lolz, mentally ill line of reasoning.[/quote]

Exactly. The line ‘the son is forever yours’ is typical of mainland Chinese thinking.[/quote]

No matter how you ‘feel’ about this…

  1. With China Communist Party having the veto in UN, Taiwan will never be considered an independent state. No matter how you argue how you ‘feel’ about this matter, that’s how the system works.
  2. KMT rep represented China in the UN, and now KMT wants to represent Taiwan as Independent state…? Which is to say, the administration of Taiwan HAD acknowledged it belonged to China by taking the China seat before 1971.
  3. KMT is itself part of China, started by a mainland Chinese Mr Sun for the purpose of a new China.
  4. Taiwan, with KMT’s seat in UN, was ‘retaken’ from the ‘occupation’ of Japan. And it was recognized hence.
  5. Prior to 1945, there was no international laws nor international legal body as UN to recognize the 1895 treaty that was signed with publicly known shame and unwillingness due to military threats from Japan. So even if Qing dynasty would be revived now, it cannot be considered legal.
  6. The civilization of Taiwan since Ming to Qing has been Chinese, and during Qing, Taiwan was a an official province. Talks about Japan taking ownership of Chinese is shameless and not patriotic. People, as lands, are considered as sovereign concerns of a state in current days. Japan has no rights to snatch population from China lest voluntarily migration.

It’s not mainland Chinese thinking, it’s simply logical and according to the current international legal principles underlying state interests.

If according to you, why had Taiwan administration taken the seat for China since 1945 in the UN? Why did they not claim that, as Singapore, they had liberated the island and were going independent?

You can’t break your own stance, happy happy switch stance and change and said this is legal and proper. Anyone with common sense will see it my way, no need the mainland Chinese thinking. Remember, right till 1970, KMT had never one day claimed Taiwan as independent but sat in UN as part of China.

Well according to your way of thinking most of us Europeans should still be part of the austro Hungarian empire, ottoman empire or the british empire. Where does it all stop or end? What happened to the people themselves deciding their own future?

Lolz, mentally ill line of reasoning.[/quote]

Exactly. The line ‘the son is forever yours’ is typical of mainland Chinese thinking.[/quote]

No matter how you ‘feel’ about this…

  1. With China Communist Party having the veto in UN, Taiwan will never be considered an independent state. No matter how you argue how you ‘feel’ about this matter, that’s how the system works.
  2. KMT rep represented China in the UN, and now KMT wants to represent Taiwan as Independent state…? Which is to say, the administration of Taiwan HAD acknowledged it belonged to China by taking the China seat before 1971.
  3. KMT is itself part of China, started by a mainland Chinese Mr Sun for the purpose of a new China.
  4. Taiwan, with KMT’s seat in UN, was ‘retaken’ from the ‘occupation’ of Japan. And it was recognized hence.
  5. Prior to 1945, there was no international laws nor international legal body as UN to recognize the 1895 treaty that was signed with publicly known shame and unwillingness due to military threats from Japan. So even if Qing dynasty would be revived now, it cannot be considered legal.
  6. The civilization of Taiwan since Ming to Qing has been Chinese, and during Qing, Taiwan was a an official province. Talks about Japan taking ownership of Chinese is shameless and not patriotic. People, as lands, are considered as sovereign concerns of a state in current days. Japan has no rights to snatch population from China lest voluntarily migration.

It’s not mainland Chinese thinking, it’s simply logical and according to the current international legal principles underlying state interests.

If according to you, why had Taiwan administration taken the seat for China since 1945 in the UN? Why did they not claim that, as Singapore, they had liberated the island and were going independent?

You can’t break your own stance, happy happy switch stance and change and said this is legal and proper. Anyone with common sense will see it my way, no need the mainland Chinese thinking. Remember, right till 1970, KMT had never one day claimed Taiwan as independent but sat in UN as part of China.[/quote]

So why isn’t the PRC governing the island?

[quote=“Charlie Phillips”]Why do people keep responding to this 網絡評論員, wǎnglù pínglùn yuán troll?
[/quote]
This. :bravo:

[quote=“jimipresley”][quote=“Charlie Phillips”]Why do people keep responding to this 網絡評論員, wǎnglù pínglùn yuán troll?
[/quote]
This. :bravo:[/quote]

Speaking for myself only, I responded because I is excruciatingly bored.

It is not my way of thinking, I do not decide how UN was formed and how the registration of states was decided.

Most of you simply dump in personal feelings into a state matter and redefining history that doesn’t suit the modern context…

Seriously, in today’s context, can you still tell me the 1895 treaty was and is legal? Based on what?

Don’t just tell me “Oh, Taiwan is independent”, “Oh, Taiwan was ‘given’ to Japan by a crap treaty”, “Oh, I just don’t feel you are right…”, “Oh, it’s legal…”…

Show me the basis. You can call me anything, but you’d never show me the basis, I don’t care.

Lolz, mentally ill line of reasoning.[/quote]

Exactly. The line ‘the son is forever yours’ is typical of mainland Chinese thinking.[/quote]

No matter how you ‘feel’ about this…

  1. With China Communist Party having the veto in UN, Taiwan will never be considered an independent state. No matter how you argue how you ‘feel’ about this matter, that’s how the system works.
  2. KMT rep represented China in the UN, and now KMT wants to represent Taiwan as Independent state…? Which is to say, the administration of Taiwan HAD acknowledged it belonged to China by taking the China seat before 1971.
  3. KMT is itself part of China, started by a mainland Chinese Mr Sun for the purpose of a new China.
  4. Taiwan, with KMT’s seat in UN, was ‘retaken’ from the ‘occupation’ of Japan. And it was recognized hence.
  5. Prior to 1945, there was no international laws nor international legal body as UN to recognize the 1895 treaty that was signed with publicly known shame and unwillingness due to military threats from Japan. So even if Qing dynasty would be revived now, it cannot be considered legal.
  6. The civilization of Taiwan since Ming to Qing has been Chinese, and during Qing, Taiwan was a an official province. Talks about Japan taking ownership of Chinese is shameless and not patriotic. People, as lands, are considered as sovereign concerns of a state in current days. Japan has no rights to snatch population from China lest voluntarily migration.

It’s not mainland Chinese thinking, it’s simply logical and according to the current international legal principles underlying state interests.

If according to you, why had Taiwan administration taken the seat for China since 1945 in the UN? Why did they not claim that, as Singapore, they had liberated the island and were going independent?

You can’t break your own stance, happy happy switch stance and change and said this is legal and proper. Anyone with common sense will see it my way, no need the mainland Chinese thinking. Remember, right till 1970, KMT had never one day claimed Taiwan as independent but sat in UN as part of China.[/quote]

So why isn’t the PRC governing the island?[/quote]

Perhaps you didn’t read before you made this sentence…

I said before, there is only one China but two governments.

Besides, you really want Communist Party to war against KMT letting Chinese slaughter each others?

Oh, you Chinese in the first place?

So tell me now, why isn’t the PRC governing this island? Isn’t it obvious…

…that you didn’t read before you made judgement? :laughing:

Somebody is rapidly outliving his welcome here.

I hope people who welcome me will be reasonable folks.

If cannot chat or discuss reasonably… it’d be a regret.

You expect me to take something legal when there isn’t legal basis?

People will laugh at me.

There is nothing wrong saying 1 China 2 governments. Which government will eventually prevail is another story.

Say, even if I and another 1,000,000 people shout Taiwan should be independent… but the reality is, UN will never register it. History will never be changed. The 1895 treaty will still not be legal. And KMT did represent China in UN since 1945…

Sun Yat Sen will still say what I said. What he wanted was a new China.

Let’s change topic then, and let this thread sinks.

Exactly what I was thotting.

It is most regrettable.

You came in making claims. You show the legal basis on which your claim is made.

Yes.

Of course it was legal.

Or, are you saying China’s taking of Tibet was illegal?

It is most regrettable.

You came in making claims. You show the legal basis on which your claim is made.

Yes.

Of course it was legal.

Or, are you saying China’s taking of Tibet was illegal?[/quote]

Pls read what I already mentioned.

They are more than enough to settle your concerns.

Regards.

[quote=“sincityhenry”]
There is nothing wrong saying 1 China 2 governments. Which government will eventually prevail is another story.[/quote]

2 equal level governments means 2 China. Anyway you slice it, such framing is deemed illegal China.

[quote=“sincityhenry”]
The 1895 treaty will still not be legal.[/quote]

by suggesting something is not legal you are implying there is something else considered legal. since you claim there is no international law prior to the UN, then by your reasoning no treaty before 1945 was legal and can be unilaterally nullified, which is idiotic. Many treaties were made before 1945, and many of them remains in effect today.

OK, if you’re so caught up on the UN lets look at that closer. What makes you think the UN is worth a shit? It has no real power to enforce its will on member states (it’s common for members to ignore or refute UN votes and rulings). Any world body that would place Russia and China as permanent members of its security council automatically loses any credibility. On to the next point. China may have convinced its own gullible and brainwashed populace that the PRC has legal claim to Taiwan, but it should at least salvage a little bit of credibility in the global community by stating what the world already knows: Taking Taiwan by force has nothing to do with history other than concluding the Chinese civil war and marking a symbolic redemption over Western Imperialism that happened generations ago. Maybe if China’s government and its citizens had any sort of real confidence in their ability to exist as a legitimate modernized country they would get over the butt-hurt sentiments of the past and move on with their lives in a way that others would admire. In other words, they need to earn the respect and validation they so desperately want from the world. It’s not Taiwan’s fault China is embarrassed about itself.

[quote=“hansioux”][quote=“sincityhenry”]
There is nothing wrong saying 1 China 2 governments. Which government will eventually prevail is another story.[/quote]

2 equal level governments means 2 China. Anyway you slice it, such framing is deemed illegal China.

[quote=“sincityhenry”]
The 1895 treaty will still not be legal.[/quote]

by suggesting something is not legal you are implying there is something else considered legal. since you claim there is no international law prior to the UN, then by your reasoning no treaty before 1945 was legal and can be unilaterally nullified, which is idiotic. Many treaties were made before 1945, and many of them remains in effect today.[/quote]

I have explained sufficiently about the 1 China two governments issue.

If you need to know…

States have their own powers in their choice to honor treaties or further the international relations to refresh such treaties after 1945.

Take for Hong Kong as instance, if the ‘treaty’ was a PERMANENT ‘rent’ and China was strong enough to resist British, China could choose not to honor the ‘rent’ or occupation.

Equally, China needs not honor the treaty signed in that circumstances with Japan, or any lands assigned by Ming, Yuan or Han dynasties/governments.