Parents on scooters wearing helmets, their children not

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
21

[quote=“Maoman”]
Guys, you need to get a grip. My grandpa took 4 or 5 helmetless grandkids on his Yamaha 750 up and down main street of Winkler, Manitoba. We hung by our knees from the branches of tall oak trees. We galloped horses bareback. We played lawn darts. We went cliff-diving at the rock quarry. We rode inner tubes down white water rivers. We built tree houses. We drove cars and rode BIG motorcycles when we were 16 years old. We rode bicycles without helmets. We swam in the deep end. We did belly flops off of diving boards. We armored ourselves with hockey pads and played war with pellet guns. We “skiied” on snow-covered streets behind city buses in our kodiak workboots. We learned how to skateboard at high speeds. We built ramps for our bicycles and jumped creeks. We rode snowmobiles. We learned how to ride Yamaha YZ80s at insane speeds when we were 10.

Some of us died. Most of us didn’t. I would never let my kid ride without a helmet, but my responsibility ends there. If anyone tried to tell my kid that I didn’t love them because I let them go cliff-diving or climb trees or swim during ghost month, I’d tell them to go to hell. :eh:[/quote]

Did you smoke, take drugs, practice unsafe sex? Would you let your kids do that? Probably not, which indicates you have standards. Would you let your kid ride around in Taiwan traffic at the age of 10 on a Yamaha YZ80 at insame speeds? No, because its not the same as buggering around in soft fields and forests. I had a bike when I was ten and blasted around at insane speeds. My parents even bought the bike for me. My dad however won’t even get on my bike in Taiwan as he reckons its too dangerous.

Children on motorcycles who can’t choose for themselves, don’t understand the dangers, can’t appreciate what suffering an incident might be like and don’t have the strecgth to guarantee a good hold should not be on motorcycles!

Another way of putting it would be is if you as a parent suffered a serious accident on a motorcycle not even by your own fault, but which caused injury to your child or even death, could you continue to live with yourself comfortably? If the answer is still yes, then I have nothing more to say.

22

Winkler, Manitoba ? You mean the Winkler, Manitoba that’s a crowded megopolis full of drivers who have zero regard for the safety of others. Or is it Winkler, Manitoba, a slightly smaller town where most drivers are courteous and careful on the roads ?

Extreme sports etc. are fine, you do them at your own risk and for the buzz. Driving helmetless through Taipei is not an extreme sport, I can’t see where the buzz would come from there. It’s putting yourself (in this case your children) at the mercy of others. Not a very fun way to die, really.

23

I couldn’t live with myself if that happened in a car. Or on a horse. Or on a bicycle. And I would never let my kids get on a scooter helmetless. I wouldn’t even let my daughter get on a scooter with a helmet - not at her tender age. But my kids are my business. If police want to enforce the laws of the land then that’s their business. It’s NOBODY else’s business. There are enough Taiwanese busybodies out there telling me my kid shouldn’t be playing in the sea with me, or swimming on rainy days, or eating popsicles. I don’t need foreign busybodies as well. :unamused:

24

Children should not be on scooters, crazy dangerous. I guess it might be necessary in rural areas where there is no public transport and the family can’t afford a car, but it should be banned in cities. Take the kids on bus…
Of course this will never happen.

25

I couldn’t live with myself if that happened in a car. Or on a horse. Or on a bicycle. And I would never let my kids get on a scooter helmetless. I wouldn’t even let my daughter get on a scooter with a helmet - not at her tender age. But my kids are my business. If police want to enforce the laws of the land then that’s their business. It’s NOBODY else’s business. There are enough Taiwanese busybodies out there telling me my kid shouldn’t be playing in the sea with me, or swimming on rainy days, or eating popsicles. I don’t need foreign busybodies as well. :unamused:[/quote]

Come on. Taiwanese people telling you that your kid shouldn’t be playing in sea with you, swimming on rainy days, eating popsicles etc. is very annoying because they are talking absolute nonsense ! Usually based on superstition rather than fact. No foreigner is going to tell you off for putting your kids in danger, because you’ve got enough sense not to do it. But why can’t we give the locals a little lecture on how to look after their kids ? I mean, we are humans too, not just monkey waiguoren, and have a right to an opinion and be taken seriously. Not that we are of course, I would be surprised if the reaction is anything more than a face-saving laugh. But good on anyone that has the balls and strength to do so. Maybe “your parents don’t love you” is a little strong, I would probably speak directly to the parents and calmly remind them of the dangers on the road.

Compare Taiwan and Hong Kong. In Hong Kong the foreign population is confident, and feel very much that it is their country. In Taiwan, foreigners are uncomfortable and out of place, they know how they are viewed by the locals and there is nothing they can do to change it. Foreigners here need to be “empowered”, not that it looks like happening any time soon.

Sorry for the whinge (and off-topic at that), you may say that if I hate TW so much, I should leave. The truth is, I have been wanting to leave for a long time, and am only here to be with my little two year son who my unstable and dangerous Taiwanese wife is trying to take away from me forever. See posts in Marriage/ Divorce section …

26

That seems to be a much better option than this:

27

Sure they are. But let’s say you see a father let his little kid play with a knife, scissors, a razor, a poisonous snake, a blender, a screwdriver close to a wall socket, firecrackers, etc. etc., wouldn’t you want to at least point out the danger?

If someone tells you that your kids shouldn’t swim in the sea, it at least shows that they are concerned about the safety of your kids. That’s not a bad thing isn’t it?

28

[quote=“hannes”][quote=“Maoman”]But my kids are my business.[/quote]But let’s say you see a father let his little kid play with a knife, scissors, a razor, a poisonous snake, a blender, a screwdriver close to a wall socket, firecrackers, etc. etc., wouldn’t you want to at least point out the danger?

If someone tells you that your kids shouldn’t swim in the sea, it at least shows that they are concerned about the safety of your kids. That’s not a bad thing isn’t it?[/quote]
It is if they are speaking to my kids and not to me. If they are telling my kids that their father doesn’t love them, then I am going to have some pretty fucking major issues with the busybody. :no-no:

29

If a “busybody” wants the intervention to be effective, he or she should IMO attempt it in a manner which does not cause the parent to lose face. A smile, a couple knocks on one’s own helmet, and a friendly “everyone needs a helmet, kids too!” in Chinese, with a soft friendly tone, would be much better than this ‘your parents don’t love you’ stuff, which is likely to result in a hostile reaction or dismissal of the message, IMO.

And of course they love their kids. Everyone does. They just view the risks differently. Fate, and all that.

30

Couldn’t say it any better. DB hits the hammer on the… ehh… helmet. :smiley:

31

I could, and that’s because I can’t avoid the need for transport, yet I have ensured that I have the safest car, the safest child seat and drive by the safest means possible. I don’t believe I can do more than I have to ensure his safety, which is why I could live with myself if anything happened, unless I drive drunk or too tired. Edit: Which of course I never would anyway.

Horse riding is recreational as well as educational. You are right that such only you have the right to decide whether that is for your child or not.

Your children as passengers in cars or on bikes however are my responsibility as well as yours. Otherwise if I hit your car, injure or kill your kid and if even all due care and attention was paid on my part, but its my fault never the less and I admit to it, then who foots the bill? I do! And why should I have to pay more for greater injury when you didn’t ensure greater safety measures on your part? That simply isn’t fare.
Another point; if your kids climb around your car or on your bike and cause you to collide with me, then who’s fault is that, but more to the point, why shouldn’t I have the right to demand that you are riding or driving safely in the first place. Having already crashed is a bit too late to start talking about responsibility in my book.

Recreational choices for your children are as they are, and doesn’t affect me and my safety. However using the road and using it properly does affect me and ensures my greater safety as well as those I care for. Can you ride your horse on the MRT? On a bus? In the fast lane? Of course not, and its because there are vehicles and standards better suited to the road than a field. We don’t often see police giving tickets to field going horse riders after all, snowboarders, skateboarders (unless they are on public footpaths/roads) etc for exactly these reasons.

We haven’t even broached the subject of what constitutes child abuse, as I think its can become a very grey area, but responsibility is fairly clear cut I think.

32

Sulavaca, it sounds like you should start a petition to get government action on this issue. Laws, enforcement and education are all needed.

33

Indeed they are, but it takes a nation with an ounce of common sense for them to want better in the first place. I don’t think they know they need or want a better system yet, otherwise they wouldn’t drive as they do and would show more willingness to improve by their way of driving style and amount of responsibility. They simply don’t want to improve just yet, so its hard forcing them. Just as Maoman said it, not that I count him as the same mindset, but most people see the police as ticket writing government coffers, and nothing more. Even the driving license exam and re-education classes the government offer don’t tell you why traffic laws exist, but simply how much you have to pay for breaking them.

It simply amazes me how people abruptly change their ideas on driving safely once they have had a serious accident. I think most people don’t know how much it hurts until its already too late.

I’ve tried to communicate reasons for road safety to Taiwan government before in letters, but they represent the Taiwan people after all and so still aren’t far removed when it comes to reasoning for road safety laws and enforcement. To me it seems that they often only have rules because they see other countries have them and feel they must have some too. That and the excellent form of revenue tickets make.

Why just last night I passed two officers giving tickets for turning on red when a family of four children and a mother passed them at 5kph on a scooter. None of them had any helmets and this was on Roosevelt road. The officers had probably been given the specific task of ticketing turners and nobody else. They simply won’t get it!

When it comes to a tiny number of deaths from SARS or mad cows desease, the government jump on it immediately and its all over the news. We have testing stations posted at airports with expensive infra red machines, a ban on imported beef etc. When it comes to tens of thousand of deaths from traffic related deaths, everyone seems to think they are all unpreventable. They don’t get a mention on the news and virtually no preventative measures are introduced.

Parents are the same. They stop their kids eating ice, but bring them to school on a scooter. They are simply not capable of weighing risk.

34

[quote]Given a choice between wearing a helmet and not wearing one, I believe Taiwanese parents would overwhelmingly opt to NOT wear the helmet. Just my opinion tho’.
[/quote]
It’s a valid opinion. Good all over the world, too. Take a look at how many people wear helmets in the US in states where they’re not mandatory. Very, very few.

In other news: Dragonbones REALLY IS Ned Flanders. Hi diddly-do, neighbour!

35

:laughing: I only play him online.

36

That’s so true. Hundreds of thousands of Taiwanese spend time abroad in advanced countries each year, seeing what its like there and how it could be here. Among them are government officials, like the Taitung magistrate, who go on “inspection tours” (that are really nothing more than sightseeing trips with colleagues and family members, really). And when they come back they half-heartedly try to implement some changes without having done the necessary research to understand why it works in the West, wasting tax payer’s money and achieving next to nothing in the end.

37

Wow. i did open a whole can of whoopee there.

mentioning politely with a tap on the helmet gets you absolutely nothing except blank stares or a “piss off, foreigner” expression. talking abruptly to the parents risks getting into a fight, and i wouldn’t do that anyway.

i think it’s far more effective to tell the kids that there is something wrong with the way they are being treated by the parents, as that is far more likely to stick in their mind, and there’s no face issue there… the parents won’'t be losing face to their 5 and 6 year old kids, but they will hopefully be reminded of it for months after as they put their own helmet on and the kid says: ‘where’s my helmet, mum?’. the kids don’t know that there is a problem, and that’s breeding a bad cycle of poor road users.

maybe you would get seriously angry with me, maoman, but it would be for a reason: you had needlessly endangered your kids’ lives. of course, i have absolutely no reason to say anything like that to you as i can’t see you doing anything to endanger your family at all.

i’m childless, so perhaps i don’t understand the protective anger that it seems to bring out in people: why does it not bring it out in these selfish parents then when they realise what they are risking their kids with?

of course getting the police to enforce the laws would be a far better thing to do, but why not do that as well?

kids shouldn’t be on a motorcycle anyway, at least not in traffic, 5 cm from idiotic cars on either side, in the blindspot too, where they are at as much risk of serious injury as their parents. helmets don’t fit most kids either… there are virtually no proper helmets for kids available in stores that i have seen.

i did crazy things on my bikes as a kid. i climbed trees, cliffs, and what have you. i skateboarded down big hills and broke things. but i was never thrown into heavy mid-town traffic. there is a vast difference there, both in the danger presented and the likelihood of it happening.

i also smoked, took drugs, drank far too much rum, and had unprotected sex. it was fun. but it’s not the same as being taken with no choice in the matter, on a daily basis, to and from school in some of the craziest traffic with some of the least competent drivers in the world. and then there’s all the local drivers too…

38

You don’t see how parental responses to that approach will be even angrier? :eh:

39

no. not at all. and angry at who? themselves? their kids? me? society?

edit: well, maybe i can see them getting angry. but the thing is, it makes them THINK about it, and that’s the objective.

i don’t care if adult (or supposedly adult ) turkeys want to ride around with no helmets, because it’s generally only themselves they are hurting. but kids have no choice, and they deserve better consideration. and if making the parents angry is the only way to get them to think about it, especially if the child says “where’s MY helmet?” then so be it. is there a better answer from anybody else here? then i’ll do that.

40

personally, children have no place anywhere near a scooter and that kind of danger. if you can’t afford a car, you can’t afford children