Parents' reinforcement of negative behaviour

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
1

Descending from another great mountain hike on the Neigoushan trail behind Lotus Hill yesterday, I arrived on the lakeside path where a lot of local families were taking their afternoon walk. I usually try to avoid bumping into these locals together, especially when there are kids around, because I know there will be some kind of embarassing situation…

On seeing me, a 5-ish year old girl pointed at me, looked at me shamelessly and shouted “waiguoren” ! The usual stuff. She asked me if I was English (great guess ! and unusual because the usual assumption is that one is a Meiguoren). I told her that this was rude behaviour, and that I was a person just like her.

When she made the comment another passer buy laughed, thinking it was obviously quite funny that a kid should say that, then started to make inanely patronising conversation with me (have you been exercising ?), maybe because they found it amusing that a foreigner should be exercising, too ! or maybe to try to save my face because they could see I was embarrassed. Who knows.

The girl’s parents were behind her, and as I passed I told them they should teach their daughter to be more polite, although it may not have come across so clearly, as my Chinese is not so fluent in such circumstances especially when I am irritated/ embarrassed. They gave me a smile but certainly didn’t look apologetic.

Kids will be kids (although one wonders who teaches them to point and should at foreigners in the first place ?), but the point is their parents should at least point out to them that this is unacceptable behaviour, as it causes embarrassment to someone else. I assume that Xifangren have face as well :bow: I have come across this kind if behaviour on several occasions now.

Nothing new in this post and it’s the kind of stuff that we Xifangren encounter every day when we are outside our Western bubbles. Anyway, it’s a shame that one should not be able to take a simple walk in the mountains without some kind of kind of social stress here.

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The eternal tale of the weiguoren in Taiwan; “Ni kan, WAIGUOREN!”
I keep an eagle eye out for the little critters and stare them down before (usually) they can utter a word, but sometimes growl " Ga maaaa!!!" - What? This shocking and loud beration is often met with a swift “mei yo” or deadly silence and an embarrassed scurrying off, or in one case, bursting out in tears. And yes, I did tell the parents they should teach their brat to be more polite.

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It’s annoying, for sure, but don’t let other people stress you out. Most people have horrible kids simply because kids take a long time - 20 years - to become adults who can adequately control their impulses and become sophisticated social beings. Parents don’t see their own kids as rude and irritating because humans have developed hormones to make us bond with our own or those close to us. Strangers shouldn’t see them as ‘rude’ - they are just not cognitively as well developed as adults. A tantrummy 2 year old, a 10 year old who is spectacularly inappropriate, a moody 14 year old, are not victims of poor parenting, they are just a certain way along a particular continuum.

Some kids have health problems which stop them from self-censoring. The rest are just … six. Or eleven, or whatever.

Parents vary in their personal views as to how much this should be inflicted on others. Some try and keep them quiet, others let them run around Starbucks, ruining others’ experience (yep, ran into this, yesterday). Others genuinely believe that because they love and indulge their child, others will too! :laughing: But mothers are people too, and while the annoying little ball of snot was really winding me up, I checked myself from response because I saw a tired woman, ten years’ younger than me, enjoying a coffee with a friend. She looked like she needed half an hour’s break more than I do. I gave it a marker and a bit of paper from my bag.

Anyway, so my point is - having been a teacher as well - it’s easy to blame kids and parents for shitting up your day, but sometimes there are other things we don’t know about. It doesn’t help the parents of an autistic child to be told publicly their kid has no manners and they are bad parents. Even if it’s true, it doesn’t help.

Btw, it’s the kid’s peers that get rid of this kind of thing, not so much the parents.

Anyway, it’s a shame that one should not be able to take a simple walk in the mountains without some kind of kind of social stress here.

That’s quite a telling sentence. Are you feeling stressed and culture-shocky, and resent having your attempt at freedom from your environment encroached upon? Does it annoy you more than it would if you were in the city?

And at least you didn’t get ‘Look at the fat foreigner!’ like i did.

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[quote=“El Toro”]The eternal tale of the waiguoren in Taiwan; “Ni kan, WAIGUOREN!”
I keep an eagle eye out for the little critters and stare them down before (usually) they can utter a word, but sometimes growl " Ga maaaa!!!" - What? This shocking and loud beration is often met with a swift “mei yo” or deadly silence and an embarrassed scurrying off, or in one case, bursting out in tears. And yes, I did tell the parents they should teach their brat to be more polite.[/quote]

Good for you mate. Although apart from making you feel better, it doesn’t help in the long run, does it ? … in addition the standard thinking that us foreigners are exotic/ freaks, these kids are gonna think we are psychotic freaks as well. The only way to tackle the problem is at source … if my Chinese was better I might be able to get through to the parents.

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A wee kid being a wee kid and someone on a sunny Sunday trying to make smalltalk puts you in a situation of social stress? So much so that you’re rude to them? I would just stay in my “Western bubble” if it caused me that much grief.
“Are you English?” from a 5-year-old is rude behaviour? Maybe it is, but its nowhere NEAR as rude as some bad-tempered git telling her parents how to raise her, IMO.

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[quote=“Buttercup”]
Anyway, it’s a shame that one should not be able to take a simple walk in the mountains without some kind of kind of social stress here.

That’s quite a telling sentence. Are you feeling stressed and culture-shocky, and resent having your attempt at freedom from your environment encroached upon? Does it annoy you more than it would if you were in the city?

And at least you didn’t get ‘Look at the fat foreigner!’ like i did.[/quote]

Not really culture shock Buttercup, I’ve been living here on and off for five years or so. In a city there is so much noise and things move so fast that you can easily ignore, walk past this kind of behaviour. But when it’s on a country path when you have just come down from a great 4 hour mountain hike, it spiols the great taste in your mouth. Yes, I know you can’t be too sensitive on planet Taiwan !

It’s one thing being sensitive and understanding of the cultural differences in the foreign countries where we live. But when these cultural differences cause bother/ stress to us when we don’t do anything to warrant it, that’s a different matter …

Anyway, as you say, at least I am not fat- if I were I wouldn’t have lasted here one day :wink:

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Why is that so terrible? Why is it shameless? It’s a small girl. I am glad to hear that Taiwanese people start to different between Europe and the USA.

And, the new word is 外星人 or alien. Everytime when i hear it, i still can laugh, normally parents start to excuse their children. But i don’t need it.

If Taiwanese say “waiguoren”, it isn’t an insult.

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This, to me, is the telling part. Its a Taiwan thing for you, not a rude people thing. Buttercup’s harried mother and snotty infant escapade took place in an Oxford Starbucks, not a Taiwanese one. How is your “Western bubble” going to protect you there?

9

When I’m in a really shitty mood I give the kid a polite lecture, loud enough for the parents to hear, that they are causing their parents to lose face by letting on to everyone that they can’t afford to send their kids to a bilingual school. Of course, if you had a foreign teacher, you wouldn’t be so shocked by my appearance, right? Poor you, being poor and all.

99.9% of the time I just ignore it and carry on without even recognizing their sorry existence.

No, I don’t have kids, and yes, I am a mean bastard sometimes.

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[quote=“pgdaddy”][quote=“El Toro”]The eternal tale of the waiguoren in Taiwan; “Ni kan, WAIGUOREN!”
I keep an eagle eye out for the little critters and stare them down before (usually) they can utter a word, but sometimes growl " Ga maaaa!!!" - What? This shocking and loud beration is often met with a swift “mei yo” or deadly silence and an embarrassed scurrying off, or in one case, bursting out in tears. And yes, I did tell the parents they should teach their brat to be more polite.[/quote]

Good for you mate. Although apart from making you feel better, it doesn’t help in the long run, does it ? … in addition the standard thinking that us foreigners are exotic/ freaks, these kids are gonna think we are psychotic freaks as well. The only way to tackle the problem is at source … if my Chinese was better I might be able to get through to the parents.[/quote]
Well, maybe it won’t help THAT much, but at least I can TRY to make the parents (in my mediocre Chinese) understand that it is rude to point and shout “look, foreigner”. As for being asked “Are you English?” I’d really have to agree with the other poster that this should really not be considered a breach of your privacy. But pointing and yelling at you? Yes.

11

A wee kid being a wee kid and someone on a sunny Sunday trying to make smalltalk puts you in a situation of social stress? So much so that you’re rude to them? I would just stay in my “Western bubble” if it caused me that much grief.
“Are you English?” from a 5-year-old is rude behaviour? Maybe it is, but its nowhere NEAR as rude as some bad-tempered git telling her parents how to raise her, IMO.[/quote]

Nice one Sandman, the usual standard from you and completely off the mark :bow: Firstly, the offensive behaviour was pointing at a stranger and causing embarrassment in public. Secondly, I wasn’t rude or angry, I simply pointed out to the child and her parents that her behaviour was impolite.

Maybe I should have headbutted the father, “why is your bairn lookin it me, yis saying I’m ugly like ?” :wink:

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A wee kid being a wee kid and someone on a sunny Sunday trying to make smalltalk puts you in a situation of social stress? So much so that you’re rude to them? I would just stay in my “Western bubble” if it caused me that much grief.
“Are you English?” from a 5-year-old is rude behaviour? Maybe it is, but its nowhere NEAR as rude as some bad-tempered git telling her parents how to raise her, IMO.[/quote]

Nice one Sandman, the usual standard from you and completely off the mark :bow: Firstly, the offensive behaviour was pointing at a stranger and causing embarrassment in public. Secondly, I wasn’t rude or angry, I simply pointed out to the child and her parents that her behaviour was impolite.

Maybe I should have headbutted the father, “why is your bairn lookin it me, yis saying I’m ugly like ?” :wink:

13

Well, it’s rude and stupid from an adult, but from a five year old, it isn’t. 99 % of five year olds simply have no cognitive framework to differentiate what is socially appropriate. It simply doesn’t happen at that age - five year olds can not separate others in space and time to an extent where they can consistently empathise with others, unless it is in a very clear physical way. It’s like asking a child to do algebra - it’s just probably not going to happen.

Now on occasion, a child may copy the parent’s overt behaviour to get approval, but it won’t understand why and won’t do it once the circumstances have changed because the child is not able to extrapolate moral behaviour from the parent’s modelled behaviour.

Sorry, OP, I didn’t mean to imply that you couldn’t handle it here, but comments about locals invading one’s refuge are classic signs, you must admit. Sorry if that isn’t you.

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If its a 14-year-old with spiky dyed orange hair and a neon pink scooter, yes. But Christ! It’s a 5-year-old kid! Probably over-excited at being outside on a nice day, into the bargain. :unamused:
Just DON’T you be trying to usurp me from my Flob resident curmudgeon throne. If there’s any curmudgeonliness to be done, it’ll be done by ME. ME! I tell you.

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It’s not just the kids.

Parents or otherwise ‘grown-up’ people here do the same thing. They will often talk about the waigouren right in front of you and some will even teach the very behavior you are talking about to their kids. “look waigouren”. In some twisted logic, I don’t even think they realize how rude they are being. You are simply a zoo animal, to point at and talk about.

While it can be annoying, this is a minor form of rudeness, and relatively harmless compared to others.

I actually enjoy going out for a hike because the quality of people I meet and see is so much higher then what I find in my own neighborhood. At least these people are out spending time with their children and getting some exercise. These are usually just good family oriented people out enjoying themselves. I also find that people are much more friendly in this environment and often forget to put on the harsh ‘public face’ which is so ingrained. I often see some smiles and ‘ni hao’s’ returned which is very refreshing.

I sympathize with you and understand where your coming from (i feel the same way), but honestly I think your wasting your time even trying to point out their rudeness. I think even with perfect Chinese, they would not understand and may become defensive or worse from a perceived loss of face.

Never mind the disrespect, you’re a zoo animal. “look waigouren” :slight_smile:

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[quote="El ToroAs for being asked “Are you English?” I’d really have to agree with the other poster that this should really not be considered a breach of your privacy.[/quote]

Sure, I should not have included that in my original post as it was confusing, I don’t have a problem being asked where I am from. I am a very outgoing and open person always happy to talk to strangers and tell them about myself and where I am from, if I am approached in a decent and genuinely enquiring way.

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If its a 14-year-old with spiky dyed orange hair and a neon pink scooter, yes. But Christ! It’s a 5-year-old kid! Probably over-excited at being outside on a nice day, into the bargain. :unamused:
Just DON’T you be trying to usurp me from my Flob resident curmudgeon throne. If there’s any curmudgeonliness to be done, it’ll be done by ME. ME! I tell you.[/quote]

Hehehe, okay okay! Old curmudgeon! :raspberry:

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[quote=“Homey”]
I actually enjoy going out for a hike because the quality of people I meet and see is so much higher then what I find in my own neighborhood. quote]

I agree, but the real pleasure is only when you get up in the mountains and pass the real hikers, not just the families on the level paths at the bottom of the mountains. While hiking I get a friendly smile from almost everyone I pass and maybe a brief conversation. Yesterday up there I got one guy giving me the usual “are you American ? are you an English teacher ? assumptions” but at least I got the opportunity to educate him a little.

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Have asked my taiwanese family a lot of times, the word “waiguoren” has no bad connotation for them.

It is our stupid and racist culture where that word implies an insult.

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I had two interesting experiences in the last week. A small five year old girl in the 7-11 came up to me and said ‘Hello’. I replied in Chinese, and asked her name. She looked most surprised, and promptly asked 你是中國人嗎？ I told her I wasn’t, I was a 外國人 but that I could speak Chinese. I could hear the clockwork grinding in her head. Apparently it did not compute. The fact that I was holding a conversation with her in Chinese on the one hand, but had told her that I was a foreigner on the other hand, made her completely confused.

The other incident was yesterday. While waiting for the train I noticed a young girl on the opposite platform looking at me, and watched with amusement as she called loudly to her mother and pointed me out. 媽媽 was unimpressed, and turned 妹妹 around whilst scolding her for pointing at foreigners. Responding to mum’s concerned glance at me I gave her a friendly smile, but there was no 不好意思 in return, and I don’t think it helped 妹妹 much. I reflected that it was likely that mum had scolded her daughter not so much for having done something ‘rude’ which might offend a foreigner, but for doing something which civilized city people aren’t supposed to do, the sort of behaviour people only expect from common country folk who don’t know any better. I may be wrong about that, but it’s the impression I’ve received a couple of times.