Parents' reinforcement of negative behaviour

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
41

[quote=“Rabidpie”]

I’m sorry, but why is everyone on this forum so damn delicate?

A kid is a kid. Some of the American kids I see curse people out at such young ages, or are just simply too fat to go outside.

Oh well, it’s not really a big deal. Just smile at the kid and be polite. She’s only 5, and in the point of view of most Taiwanese, she did nothing wrong. You telling them that there child needs to be educated because she’s only 5 because she called you a “waiguoren”, I think that’s unreasonable.[/quote]

I think anyone who is really delicate wouldn’t have come to TW in the first place, or would have been on the first plane out as soon as they arrived :wink:

It depends on what you define as unacceptable. If you are happy with being pointed out/ embarrassed in public then fine. Many of us aren’t, though.

42

Pathetic dude!! Having your cage rattled because a five year old girl paid attention to you because :

  1. you ARE foreign and stick out like a sore thumb
  2. you ARE a sore thumb too.

More well adjusted humans would simply see that approach as a little child who is enthusiastic and outgoing exploring the day and the world around her. You chose to make it a very unhappy encounter for her. Shame on you.

What the fuck is wrong with you you piece of shit is what I wouldve told you had it been my daughter who tried to be friendly to you in a childs way. And i wouldve happily decked you out too if you tried any shit.

(ok this last statement is cuz i just woke up but seriously you could get your ass whipped big time with that kind of behavior in Taiwan, from REAL people, not just heros with words on a screen).

43

Since then, I have heard so many stories of kids embarrassing their parents by following their impulses or behaving totally out of character.
Oh and that lady with the tot at starbucks could’ve been me. :smiley: But I don’t go there.[/quote]

Well, kids DO say the most outrageous stuff - but it’s not because they are bad or uneducated, it just takes a while for them to assemble the brain power and experience to not ‘say what they see’ all the time. A high level of self-monitoring is not present in all adults. Many of them develop compensatory personalities - you’ve all met that person who brags that he’s ‘just being honest’.

Well, the Starbucks lady - why censure people because you see one side of their behaviour? We all have our battles and we don’t know what else was going on. Maybe she had new-born twins at home and had hardly slept? Maybe she was a working single mother? Maybe she was sick? Maybe her husband just left her? Maybe she was a selfish old boot who couldn’t be bothered and didn’t care whether her kid ran into someone with hot coffee? Anyway, that’s off topic, but she didn’t need me to shit on her as well, even though my first impulse was to defend my feelings, and my personal space.

We’ve all done shitty rude things in public, but sometimes you just need to smile and give people the benefit of the doubt because even if they are just being shitty, it affects them more than you, ultimately.

44

As Bcup says. I remember my “happy” encounter with the little brat pushing rolling laundry baskets out the door at parked cars. After three such times I told the mom she should watch her kid cuz its dangerous what he is doing and he could get hit by a car by running out to the street. She cussed me out and a bit later cussed me out again and burst into tears saying she just lost her home and her husband (getting divorced… no surprise really judging by how she is) and now I am being a bastard to pick on her kid.

Well at least I didnt yell at or even talk to the kid, only said to his mom to watch him (well i embarashed her at the laundromat by speaking up). Another woman immediately took her side (there were only us three so called adults there plus the child) and called me a bastard.

Those were all white people at a white upper middle class neighborhood in berkeley too.

So Mericans are even more sensitive when it comes to their children, trust me. Even if their child is running out into the street repeatedly and actually IS being a danger to himself and others. Parents are sensitive bout their kids.

45

[quote=“Buttercup”]We all have our battles and we don’t know what else was going on. Maybe she had new-born twins at home and had hardly slept? Maybe she was a working single mother? Maybe she was sick? Maybe her husband just left her? Maybe she was a selfish old boot who couldn’t be bothered and didn’t care whether her kid ran into someone with hot coffee? Anyway, that’s off topic, but she didn’t need me to shit on her as well, even though my first impulse was to defend my feelings, and my personal space.

We’ve all done shitty rude things in public, but sometimes you just need to smile and give people the benefit of the doubt because even if they are just being shitty, it affects them more than you, ultimately.[/quote]
My feelings exactly. In fact, those sentiments would make for a good signature. If I could just fine-tune the wording… :ponder:

46

[quote=“tommy525”]Pathetic dude!! Having your cage rattled because a five year old girl paid attention to you because :

  1. you ARE foreign and stick out like a sore thumb
  2. you ARE a sore thumb too.

More well adjusted humans would simply see that approach as a little child who is enthusiastic and outgoing exploring the day and the world around her. You chose to make it a very unhappy encounter for her. Shame on you.

What the fuck is wrong with you you piece of shit is what I wouldve told you had it been my daughter who tried to be friendly to you in a childs way. And i wouldve happily decked you out too if you tried any shit.

(ok this last statement is cuz i just woke up but seriously you could get your ass whipped big time with that kind of behavior in Taiwan, from REAL people, not just heros with words on a screen).[/quote]

Nice language mate. Doesn’t really cover you in glory. You have a daughter ? I am surprised that you actually found someone willing to procreate with you :wink: Anyway if you had taken the time to read my posts you would see that I don’t have any problem with friendly kids, I am a friendly and open person myself- it’s having public attention drawn to the fact you are different, and the parents doing nothing about it- which is the problem.

And what do you mean real people ? I am a real person, walking in the mountains and interacting with other real people. You’re welcome to come on a hike with me- if you can make it past the first climb.

I doubt I made the girl unhappy, she left with a cheeky grin on her face, and her parents did too. :wink:

47

[quote=“Maoman”]
My feelings exactly. In fact, those sentiments would make for a good signature. If I could just fine-tune the wording… :ponder:[/quote]

How about ‘Tolerance is what allows people like us to suffer people like you.’? Hardly in the spirit of things, though.

Ultimately, very few people consider themselves ‘bad people’, despite the evidence. They will not alter their assessment as a result of anything you say or do. Why not humour them / give them the benefit of the doubt / give 'em enough rope, etc? And of course, presuming that people we don’t like simply have shitty, dysfunctional lives is slightly illogical, just as presuming good intentions is as stupid as presuming bad ones.

Anyway. IT WAS A FIVE YEAR OLD - DON’T BE SO STUPID.

48

to pgdaddy

you are being petty taking issue with a little kid . maybe other issues going on with ya?

49

Other people’s children are always irritating and badly behaved. This is a universal truth.

Other people are also really annoying and boorish when drunk.

These truths only apply to other people.

50

[quote=“tomthorne”]Other people’s children are always irritating and badly behaved. This is a universal truth.

Other people are also really annoying and boorish when drunk.

These truths only apply to other people.[/quote]

I agree except it also applies to people you see in the mirror.

51

It’s rude to loudly point anyone out, period. As a child, my parents would have pointed out that such behavior was inappropriate. The fact that so many parents here either actively or tacitly condone it disgusts me, but I tell myself that they don’t know any better; it’s a sort of “nouveau-riche syndrome” in the cities, and just rural cultures everywhere else. Call it racist or whatever you like: in Taiwan, everyone MUST be labelled in some fashion.

I sometimes fantasize about doing the same thing in a western country in which one of these people has ended up through some twist of fate/reincarnation.

“Look, little Wayne, a foreigner. Say, ‘Ni hao’”
“NI HAO!!!”
<Foreigner looks up awkwardly from a book that she was enjoying and replies weakly, “Ni hao.”>
“Now, ask the foreigner his nationality. Ask if he’s Taiwanese.”
“NI SHI TAIWAN REN MA?”
<Foreigner rolls her eyes, sighs and responds in English, “No, I’m a Canadian.”>

(Wayne and Mom go on to discuss with this person in Mandarin [because, as everyone knows, foreigners can’t understand our culture or speak our language] her age, job, children, salary and the fact that she’s too skinny. Naturally, she’s happy to comply because her time is worth nothing and this is the first time EVER that such an event has occurred.)

…Betcha can’t tell i’m having an anti-wan day, can you? :noway:

52

[quote=“tommy525”][quote=“tomthorne”]Other people’s children are always irritating and badly behaved. This is a universal truth.

Other people are also really annoying and boorish when drunk.

These truths only apply to other people.[/quote]

I agree except it also applies to people you see in the mirror.[/quote]

No, when I look in the mirror I still see an incredibly handsome, dapper chap who is charming, witty and a sensitive lover.

Back on topic, as Buttercup said - the kid’s only five for Cliff’s sake.

53

[quote=“tommy525”]to pgdaddy

you are being petty taking issue with a little kid . maybe other issues going on with ya?[/quote]

You’re damned right I have other issues ! You try fighting for your child in the courts here- I’ll tell you my story, which will make you cry, and you’ll realise how deeply prejudiced against foreigners this country is.

But this is irrelevant, because I would take exception to this kind of behaviour when I first came to Taiwan, but wouldn’t say anything to the parents because I couldn’t speak Chinese.

It’s the parents that need to be spoken to, not the kid. Yes, she’s only five. And that’s the whole point.

54

[quote=“nemesis”]It’s rude to loudly point anyone out, period. As a child, my parents would have pointed out that such behavior was inappropriate. The fact that so many parents here either actively or tacitly condone it disgusts me, but I tell myself that they don’t know any better; it’s a sort of “nouveau-riche syndrome” in the cities, and just rural cultures everywhere else. Call it racist or whatever you like: in Taiwan, everyone MUST be labelled in some fashion.

I sometimes fantasize about doing the same thing in a western country in which one of these people has ended up through some twist of fate/reincarnation.

“Look, little Wayne, a foreigner. Say, ‘Ni hao’”
“NI HAO!!!”
<Foreigner looks up awkwardly from a book that she was enjoying and replies weakly, “Ni hao.”>
“Now, ask the foreigner his nationality. Ask if he’s Taiwanese.”
“NI SHI TAIWAN REN MA?”
<Foreigner rolls her eyes, sighs and responds in English, “No, I’m a Canadian.”>

(Wayne and Mom go on to discuss with this person in Mandarin [because, as everyone knows, foreigners can’t understand our culture or speak our language] her age, job, children, salary and the fact that she’s too skinny. Naturally, she’s happy to comply because her time is worth nothing and this is the first time EVER that such an event has occurred.)

…Betcha can’t tell I’m having an anti-wan day, can you? :noway:[/quote]

This is actually very funny !! Why cant the world be FAIR this way? :slight_smile:

And to pgdaddy. Ya i figured other issues got your goat, otherwise this feather wont break the camels back. Sorry to hear, hope things work out for ya.

55

Let’s reverse the situation a bit. In my hometown in Canada, when I was young, there was not a single black person to be found in our town. Not one. Occasionally, a black person would visit our town either for business or to see a friend. Gotta love the Prairies.

Now let’s say that I, as a five year old pointed and started yelling at the top of my lungs, “Black man, black man. Look black man!!!” Any idea what would have happened to me? Well to say the least, I wouldn’t have been walking properly for a week or so. That would be accompanied by a tongue lashing that I would never forget, and most likely weekly reminders of why it was inappropriate (that would continue forever). The thing is, I knew it was inappropriate, and it never happened. We were taught to treat people with respect, regardless of their appearances.

If parents don’t teach our kids what is acceptable, who will?

56

…but it’s not racism or bad parenting when it happens in Taiwan, it’s a cultural difference.

You guys just don’t understand Taiwanese culture.

57

[quote=“Noel”]Let’s reverse the situation a bit. In my hometown in Canada, when I was young, there was not a single black person to be found in our town. Not one. Occasionally, a black person would visit our town either for business or to see a friend. Gotta love the Prairies.

Now let’s say that I, as a five year old pointed and started yelling at the top of my lungs, “Black man, black man. Look black man!!!” Any idea what would have happened to me? Well to say the least, I wouldn’t have been walking properly for a week or so. That would be accompanied by a tongue lashing that I would never forget, and most likely weekly reminders of why it was inappropriate (that would continue forever). The thing is, I knew it was inappropriate, and it never happened. We were taught to treat people with respect, regardless of their appearances.

If parents don’t teach our kids what is acceptable, who will?[/quote]

Ya but thats all in the real world…here be dragons… en la isla formosa

58

Tommy’s pocket theory:

Taiwan is an island and its people are ISLANDERS. They have a different mindset from those that live on Continents. Continental dwellers through the ages have been wanderer/gatherers likely to have run into others much different from their own. The Modern Taiwanese are still very much ethnically of a tribal headhunter mindset. They really didn’t have a whole lot of places they could go to as the island was small. Some did set out either by accident or on purpose to populate much of what we now know as the South Pacific, etc. Those that lived on the island belonged to many different tribes (with its own language/customs). The hapless early arrivals on Taiwan were met by natives that delighted in beheading and cooking them. Only when greater and yet greater non-islanders showed up did the natives get driven up more and more into the hills. But these later arrivals married many tribewomen.

Until say 30 years ago, many Taiwanese had never ventured out of the island and remained very secular and “tribal” in their outlook. Today that basic outlook on the world and society is still much colored by tribalism. Taiwanese remain very much seeking to belong to a “tribe” in all their daily endeavors. Everyone wants to belong to some group or groups. In the not too distant past, individualism resulted in a harsh life and perhaps an early death. Belonging to a tribe was crucial to existence itself.

Taiwanese like Japanese have learned that they need to make products, need to trade with the rest of the world because they cannot be self-sufficient in all their daily needs. Hence decades later the hard work has paid off and resulted in many trappings of modern life and a society “approaching” first world status. We have the subways, one of the tallest buildings in the world, a high speed train. The nation is like a rich kid that has amassed a lot of toys, but yet that child is still insulated from the vagaries of much of life and the world he lives in. Due to a good climate and other favorable conditions, people on Taiwan have been insulated from many great evils other places/civilizations have had visited upon them. Famine, drought, pestilence, and other pandora’s box visitations had not been inflicted upon the island.

The islands peoples are friendly by and large but not Politically Correct in their behavior or even their thinking. It would take another generation or two of travelling the world, living in other places, etc for there to be a substantial departure in tribal thinking.

Cant expect them to think/behave exactly as you would/do. If we exported everyone on TAiwan to say Montana and populated the island only with Europeans, it would indeed be a different place wouldnt it? But then y’all coulda just stayed home now couldnt cha?

59

[quote=“pgdaddy”]On seeing me, a 5-ish year old girl pointed at me, looked at me shamelessly and shouted “waiguoren” ! The usual stuff. She asked me if I was English (great guess ! and unusual because the usual assumption is that one is a Meiguoren). I told her that this was rude behaviour, and that I was a person just like her.

as I passed I told them they should teach their daughter to be more polite, although it may not have come across so clearly, as my Chinese is not so fluent in such circumstances especially when I am irritated/ embarrassed. They gave me a smile but certainly didn’t look apologetic.

Kids will be kids (although one wonders who teaches them to point and should at foreigners in the first place ?),

but the point is their parents should at least point out to them that this is unacceptable behaviour, as it causes embarrassment to someone else.

Anyway, it’s a shame that one should not be able to take a simple walk in the mountains without some kind of kind of social stress here.[/quote]

Whats wrong about pointing out the bleedin OBVIOUS. You are a foreigner so what? Are you ashamed about that? Nobody has to teach the kids that you are a foreigner, you do look different after all.

Unacceptable behaviour is all yours… by accosting a small child and then telling her parents how to raise their own child tsk tsk

Yes you are right, it sure is stressful for some young kid to have a complete stranger come up and tell her off. You should stay away from kids, you no doubt have no time for them

The rude behaviour is yours, a total lack of respect for other people.

60

[quote=“Noel”]Let’s reverse the situation a bit. In my hometown in Canada, when I was young, there was not a single black person to be found in our town. Not one. Occasionally, a black person would visit our town either for business or to see a friend. Gotta love the Prairies.

Now let’s say that I, as a five year old pointed and started yelling at the top of my lungs, “Black man, black man. Look black man!!!” Any idea what would have happened to me? Well to say the least, I wouldn’t have been walking properly for a week or so. That would be accompanied by a tongue lashing that I would never forget, and most likely weekly reminders of why it was inappropriate (that would continue forever). The thing is, I knew it was inappropriate, and it never happened. We were taught to treat people with respect, regardless of their appearances.

If parents don’t teach our kids what is acceptable, who will?[/quote]

Exactly. We need need say no more. And it’s lame to use “culture” to excuse this kind of behaviour- unless you are being sarcastic Urodacus ?

For instance, the British have a “culture” of binge drinking and antisocial behaviour back home and in certain seaside resorts of Europe. It makes non-British people in the same place feel uncomfortable and intimidated.

Ah, bless those Brits, they don’t mean any harm. It’s just their culture !