Paying to the inlaws and seeing little in return

I give my wife an allowance of NT$50,000/month. The rest of my salary is MINE to do with what I want to. :discodance:

I think the NT$5000 per month is non-negotiable. She is paying her parents back for bringing her up. Since Taiwan has very little in the way of a social safety net and pensions except for civil servants are unheard of, children are the retirement plan. Your wife is paying into the Taiwanese social security system as it were. The problem with this for the current generation of adults is that they can’t expect the next generation to do this. Taiwan is quickly turning into a culture like yours: parents fork out for the kids rather than the other way around.

Forget about cards and any interest in your holidays like Christmas etc. Taiwanese people don’t send the former and its nearly impossible to get excited about holidays you didn’t grow up with.

I think what is really bothering you is the sense that you are bearing more of the financial burden. If you make NT$10K more than she does (does she pay taxes?) then she should be paying about 80% of the rent not 66%. So if your rent was NT$30K, you are now paying NT$20K and she is paying NT$10K. If she paid her share, she’d be paying NT$13.5 and you’d be paying about NT$16.5. So you are subsidizing her payment to her parents by NT$3,500 month, which is nota huge amount in the scheme of things.

On paying for meals, there are two issues. First, you must be seen to pay in public. Most Taiwanese women hate paying for meals when accompanied by their husband or boyfriend. Secondly, you must not develop an image in her mind of being cheap, since this is an enormous turnoff. That doesn’t mean that you should ruin yourself financially being generous, but it does mean that you have to accept that you will be expected to contribute a bit more to going out and gifts for her and that your shouldn’t quibble over relatively small amounts of money. I would suggest that you guys create a pool for eating out each month that you will manage. Let her decide how much to contribute and don’t sweat it if she doesn’t fork NT$4,000 to the NT$5000 you contribute (for example). The important point is that she is contributing, not the precise amount.

The wedding stuff was all negotiable. You should not take the ‘this is our culture, so you must do x’ argument at face value. That is really an initial proposal to negotiate. It means that this is what we would like to see happen. In any event, that is all water under the bridge. You played ball and proved that you can and are willing to support your wife which is important to both her and her parents.

The far more important issue here is seeing that you may well have different ideas about money that probably have to do with your backgrounds. You said that your parents were a teacher and social worker respectively. That often means that their incomes were relatively fixed, meaning that it was possible to maximize them by carefully planning and sharing expenditures over the years. While many Taiwanese who work for the state also operate this way financially, many working people don’t because there was considerably more uncertainty about income from year to year. That leads to a very different outlook on money–i.e one in which I contribute what I can now to meet current needs rather than planning for future needs far in advance.

In general it sounds like she is contributing what she thinks is reasonable and is fairly responsible about money but that you have slightly different views about money. Good luck!

Really, she’s cool, and I’m cool. $5000 is not so much to worry about, but it’s not insignificant either. Basically, I accept these things as part of the deal. That doesn’t mean you don’t want to talk about them or run through issues sometimes. As something that’s not going to change and I accept, I talk to her about and explain broad feelings that she should understand (feelings are not rational, so I still have them even when I understand and accept things), but not in the sense of trying to build a case for change.

As an individual, I’m not too concerned what others beyond my friends and family think - in the society I grew up in or this one. If someone in a restaurant sees her pay for a meal, they can think what they like. Being Taiwanese, my wife’s thinking may be a little different but she understands me and knows I’ll do the right thing when it matters. Like I said, what friends and family think is different.

Money gripes may have been exacerbated right now by Chinese New Year. Having extra costs at the same time as losing 7 days work while those on salaries get their normal salary plus a bonus. That’s a feeling, not a rational argument. I have to live with it, so I express the feeling, and then get on with it.

A frustrating issue (though again, one I understand in the context of Taiwanese society) is that she can’t tell her parents that she is in debt.

One of the contexts of this is that Taiwanese society itself is in flux as mentioned by someone else above and that as a mixed couple we either won’t be around in Taiwan or working by the same rules when we’re older. But that’s the way it is.

So. Frustrated by lack of openness with parents - would things be different if they knew? Probably not anyway. This won’t change, so OK.

Frustrated by not having a voice in these matters or in general in Taiwan, including Taiwan’s work environment (not mine in particular) - “this is how it’s done, like it or lump it”. We choose the life of an outsider though, something we will always be to some extent.

And, despite the fact that I like her parents (her father’s eccentricities, possible social awkwardness and stubbornness - he does his own thing - are kind of endearing to someone like me), I can’t help but feel my parents being more interested than hers. But I guess I’m not party to all the phone calls my wife has with them.

So in some ways, I’m just thinking aloud, getting things straight.

When I think of the way some of my aunts treat my grandparents (constant gossip about who is getting what when they die, all while contributing zero and being relatively well off already, mostly thanks to their parents money) the concept of filial piety is quite impressive to me. The concept of the old paying the young is inferior to young paying the old in my opinion. The young are the ones that need to learn perseverance and respect for elders, not the other way around. Maybe I’m just too much of an idealist.

Don’t take any of this personal fruitloop, just me thinking out loud as well.

Well it seems like you are looking at the broader picture and being open-minded.

Lunar New Year is stressful for everyone. The hit that many foreigners take at Lunar New Year with lower income is often seen as evening out the higher wages that we often command.

I must say I can’t see any reason in the context of Taiwanese society that she can’t tell her parents. Although I can certainly see in a more universal personal sense that she may be embarrassed to tell her parents and want to avoid the criticism she may get from them.

Ah, sweet memories of marriage days coming into my mind. Mother in law making a run for it with that 200.000 NT box with the money donated by the marriage guests. Ah… sweet memories. There she runs! :laughing: Whoooosh along the corridor… :slight_smile:

Nice post. It’s normal to feel frustrated. I recommend the best course of action is to look for a higher paying job if at all possible. I know that might not be easy or quick but that should help relieve the strain. Most of us foreigners with Taiwanese partners have experienced similar issues. This is the culture we join. 5,000/mth is not too bad although I can see that it is annoying in your current situation. That’s why I say if you earn more if won’t take as much % out of your income. Your wife sounds pretty rounded as you do yourself. I am just an employee, can’t employ anybody but maybe you could PM me and you can mention your background, discuss ideas on how you could earn more.

Taiwanese people are generally easy going so we have to look at the bright side. I have experienced a similar situation with my FIL and MIL, FIL content to stop working even though he could, MIL still hard working. What can you do, this is their decision. I have been married a bit longer than you and the marriage costs don’t rankle me in the slightest anybody, fading into the background with more important priorities these days.

Fruitloop, it sounds like you are happy enough. I think you might look at this much more optimistically once your debts are paid off. Maybe you should just let your wife deal with her side of the family if it’s not too costly. NT$5000 might be a great investment if you get babysitting out of this or some property later on.

I gotta say, most people in Taiwan will not see much of a pension. I just read about problems in Spain with people who are being told that they’ll have to work until they’re 67 before retiring. If your FIL feels financially secure enough to retire at 50, maybe he has more money than you think. Perhaps you can tell your wife that you want to do the same. :smiley: If your FIL has worked for and earned his early retirement, that’s fantstic. If he’s clueless and/or depending on all his kids to fund it, he’s an ass. (IMHO)

Many retirees live very cheaply in Taiwan. However, I think many underestimate what it will take to finance a retirement even if they just live to an average life expectancy. If you knew the odds of one of you (you or your spouse) living to 90, you (or your FIL) might work a few more years.

I think one question going through my mind is a theoretical one of where, as an outsider, one can draw lines in the sand.

If I had a wife whose culture dictated female genital mutilation, that’s a line that could not be crossed. Even male genital mutilation, though quite different in character, intent, consequences etc, would be a no-no for anything other than serious medical reasons as far as I’m concerned.

So there are cases when most of us would say, whatever your culture, that is not acceptable to me. Perhaps this question is a matter of defining myself and my place in this society.

I would give everything I have and everything I make for just one more minute with my mom and dad. I love them so much and miss them every day.