Penis Monologues Bad, Vagina Monologues Good. Why?

Discussion Open Forum
21

That’s total BS. First, you’ve never seen VM, have you? If not, it’s not really fair to rant about how despicable it is, is it? Is there anything you object to about VM other than the fact that it includes reference to a 24 yr old woman seducing a 13 yr old? On what basis do you claim it glorifies child abuse? What makes you so certain that reference doesn’t have the effect of condemning child abuse? Do you know how significant that one incident is in relation to the work as a whole? What percentage of the work involves that incident? You don’t know any of the above answers do you? So are you really qualified to condemn something that you know so little about?

Moreover, when you say art would never be permitted that glorifies a male pedophile, apparently you are unfamiliar with the great novel, Lolita, by the brilliant author Vladimir Nabokov, that was made into a movie in 1962 by Stanley Kubrick and then again in 1997, concerning an old man who is totally sexually obsessed with a 14 yr old girl. It’s a great book. I highly recommend that you read it.

Finally, if VM really glorifies sexual abuse of women as you and Fred claim, how can you explain its overwhelming popularity with women? Doesn’t make any sense does it? That’s becasue this whole thread started with a mischaracterization and twisting around of the facts and you impulsively jumped on the bandwagon without knowing the facts. As I said, I suggest you take a few deep breaths, read something further about VM and reconsider your position.

22

I’ll chip in here with my piddly. I have read parts of VM and found it embarassingly bad. It is kind of like “Stupid White Men” in that regard. Badly enough written to appeal to the dimwits.

There is something positive to be said however about women having forthright public conversations about their vaginas, of course, but it seems awfully sexist that a satire of those conversations would be met with official disapproval.

Equal rights go both ways.

23

MT - two points. Firstly, nice assumption that I’ve never seen or read anything about VM. Nice one. Secondly, find me one piece of modern work that has the same situation with men. Pieces reflect their times, so something over 50 years old barely counts. And then you neglect to mention the fact that Lolita was banned in several countries - after numerous rejections by publishers in the first place and widely condemned; seen the same thing happen with VM have you?

24

I never said that. I said I assumed you never read or saw the actual work. Have you?

As I’ve said countless times, none of us (except bob) could possibly do that, because none of us (except bob) knows what the “situation” in the VM is. As I said, I suspect VM does not glorify sexual abuse in any way but actually is more condemning of it. I also suspect that one “situation” is only a very small scene in the entire work and has been completely mischaracterized by you and Fred and the puerile republican men refered to in the first post. Therefore, until any of us actually see the work how can we be expected to know what you mean by the “same situation” or to find a comparable work?

25

Why not? It played here just a couple of weeks ago in both English and Chinese. I’m sure lots of people saw it.

26

Why not? It played here just a couple of weeks ago in both English and Chinese. I’m sure lots of people saw it.[/quote]

I meant none of us who have been discussing the work thus far but have never seen or read it. If bob and others who have actually seen or read it want to join in the conversation and give their description of the “situation” between the 13 and 24 yr olds in VM, or whether they feel the work glorifies sexual abuse or not, that would be great.

27

Fred is just pulling your chain MT. I’m sure he doesn’t for a second believe VM glorifies sexual abuse of women.

[quote=“V-Day.org”]V-Day is a global movement to stop violence against women and girls. V-Day is a catalyst that promotes creative events to increase awareness, raise money and revitalize the spirit of existing anti-violence organizations. V-Day generates broader attention for the fight to stop violence against women and girls, including rape, battery, incest, female genital mutilation (FGM) and sexual slavery.

Through V-Day campaigns, local volunteers and college students produce annual benefit performances of The Vagina Monologues to raise awareness and funds for anti-violence groups within their own communities. In 2004, over 2000 V-Day benefit events were presented by volunteer activists in the U.S. and around the world, educating millions of people about the reality of violence against women and girls.

Performance is just the beginning. V-Day stages large-scale benefits and produces innovative gatherings, films and campaigns to educate and change social attitudes towards violence against women including the documentary Until the Violence Stops; community briefings on the missing and murdered women of Ju

28

It was banned in Uganda.

29

Sorry I can’t offer up more of a critique gentlemen but the truth is I only got to about page three before casting the book aside. As mentioned earlier though I am entirely in support of anything that will get women talking and feeling better about their vaginas, especially if that leads them to giving men a break over their willies.

I am not sure I know what sex should be about but I am pretty sure it should not be a clash of enflamed or ruptured egos.

30

rape is rape.

13 year old is too young for sex, at least by the mores prevalent in most western countries.

mentioning it in a positive way is not very smart.

31

I was one of the V-Day Taipei 2005 organizers.

For those who haven’t actually seen the play, I can understand your first reaction. It’s pretty normal to be a little shocked. But that’s the whole point of The Vagina Monologues and the V-Day movement. Why should women be embarassed talking about their vaginas? The entire movement is a wonderful cause that raises awareness about violence against women and girls around the world.

For those who say they’ve attempted to read it, then cast the book aside, it’s a shame. Sure, everyone has different tastes, but it’s possible to appreciate a play’s message and language, even if you’re a little uncomfortable with the content. It really is a very well-written, honest, and stirring play. It may be shocking, it may be a little disturbing, but these are true stories that women shared with Eve Ensler. Stories that have helped women understand and appreciate their bodies, in addition to revitalizing the organizations that try to stop violence against women.

As for the monologue about the 13-year-old girl and the 24-year-old women, sure, a situation like is disturbing, doesn’t matter if it’s a boy and a women, girl and a man. But if you see it, or read this section of the play, you understand this woman’s situation. She was interviewed by Eve Ensler when she was living in shelter, but afterwards, she and another woman fell in love, and through their love and support of each other, they managed to get out of the shelter system. Basically, out of the hundreds of women Eve Ensler interviewed, basically all the ones who lived in shelters had been sexually abused as children (with the exception of one woman). Now, this women had been sexually assaulted when she was 9 nine years old. She had a crush on this beautiful woman who lived in her neighborhood (the 24-year-old), and had her first sexual encounter. And as she says: “She raised my coochie snorcher into a kind of heaven.” Now, I’m not saying that it was right, but it’s certainly not offensive when you actually see this part of the play.

As for the Penis Monologues…the students should’ve been allowed to express themselves. But other people have made similar attempts, with no success. Some of the girls who were in The Vagina Monologues believe it’s because there’s no mystery to the penis. It’s not like it’s difficult to see. Women didn’t really have a chance before to talk about their vaginas. And you only have to look at the statistics to understand why a play like this is so important. 1 in 4 women in the U.S are sexually assaulted in some way. In Taiwan, the numbers range from 30,000-70,000…we’re never entirely sure because so many women don’t come forward.

If you don’t like the play, but agree with its message, that’s still great. As long as the word gets out, and you make a judgement after actually watching or reading the play.

But regardless of whether or not you agree with the content, or think that some of it’s “wrong”, the movement will still continue “Until the Violence Stops”.

32

On behalf of all of us at forumosa I think I can say hurrah! for the vagina and :raspberry: to violence of any kind.

Not many of us here would likely find a book about the vagina all that shocking though, and the play may be first class for all we know, but when a couple of us started on the book we found it poorly written, that’s all. Had we continued reading we may have changed our minds.

Thanks ecliptica and welcome to forumosa.

33

[quote=“Ecliptica”]I was one of the V-Day Taipei 2005 organizers.

For those who haven’t actually seen the play, I can understand your first reaction. It’s pretty normal to be a little shocked. But that’s the whole point of The Vagina Monologues and the V-Day movement. Why should women be embarassed talking about their vaginas? The entire movement is a wonderful cause that raises awareness about violence against women and girls around the world.[/quote]
Hey, that’s all well and good. I personally prefer to keep sexuality a private affair whether it be guys telling raunchy stories or girls. But as for the rest of liberation from tradition and society that unfairly holds women back I think it’s great. And about raising money to stop violence against women-- I’m all for that.

The problem most of us had was not the message of V-Day, but the fact that a copy of the movement, simply done by men and about male sexuality, was silenced and condemned. That’s the exact sort of thing that V-Day is combatting, just not directed towards women.

Honestly, there is no excuse for that. What if the 13 year old girl was grateful to her 26 year old male friend who liberated her from her virginity by getting her drunk? Is there any way you could see that as a thing of beauty? That sort of act should be condemned in the strongest terms and never romanticized.

Perhaps that is the one exceptional part of the play that people can object to and otherwise it is a marvel of enlightenment and virtue. But as that part of the play has been confirmed I believe that is really taking things too far.

I’m glad you feel that way. It’s the fact that it was so openly attacked while V-Day was lauded that is disheartening.

Maybe someone should write a terrible play instead of a good one and perform it constantly until it stops. Then everyone will hunt down any abusers just to make it stop. (Too bad that couldn’t really work). Not having seen the play I can’t comment on its quality, but I hope I pray for its success in achieving the goal of an end to abuse.

34

Hey, that’s all well and good. I personally prefer to keep sexuality a private affair whether it be guys telling raunchy stories or girls.[/quote]
Ditto. I don’t want to hear about Kelly the Clit or Sammy the Scrotum, no matter how empowering it is to people who feel sexually repressed. You want to talk about your vagina? Fine. But it’s not exactly a topic for the office water cooler, is it? I’m quite certain I do not want to hear about the vaginas of most of the women I meet on a daily basis. :astonished:

35

3 pages of posts. No women responding except Ecliptica (who may not be female for all I know :wink: ) And you still want the penis dialogue?

36

Lolita was not a celebration or endorsement of pedophilia. Just because a book involves and examines a crime doesn’t necessarily mean it advocates the crime. You wouldn’t claim that Agatha Christie advocated murder, would you? Nabokov’s book was an exploration of the mind of a pedophile. That is why it is so disturbing - it’s all told from the point of view of a sex criminal. The tension in the novel comes from the disjoint between Humbert’s attempted justifications of what he’s doing and the horror of what you, the reader, can tell what he’s doing. Humbert knows what he’s doing is wrong and the more he tries to justify to himself that what he’s doing is OK, his ‘voice’ cracks, and that’s what gives the novel its power. The whole point of reading Lolita is to read between the lines. If you take the book at face value, yes, it may seem like a book written by a pedophile endorsing pedophilia, but duh, it’s a work of fiction, and it uses a device called the “unreliable narrator”. In fact it is perhaps the perfect example of a story told by an unreliable narrator whose every word is in some sense a lie. If you’re not smart enough to get it, you shouldn’t be reading Lolita then.

37

Did you see the recent film adapatation? The power of that film comes from it’s willingness to face the fact that while there are very good reasons to prohibit adults from having sex with minors, it has to be admitted that “some” minors give every appearance of being exquisitely, succulently ready for it. Giving it to them is not a case of perverted desire. It is case of perverted character, a moral failing, and that is something that we are all afraid of in one way or another.

38

I haven’t seen the film but I’m familiar with the actress who plays the ‘nymphet’ in it and she doesn’t look prepubescent at all. That’s a problem with adapting the novel for a film - the '50s version rounded the girl’s age up to the late teens, and the recent film version rounded her age up to the mid-teens, right? But in the book, she is clearly only 12 years old when Humbert fixates on her. I suppose the people who remake the novel for a film realize that making a movie about a man in his 30s lusting after a 12 year old who clearly looks it (Humbert says that girls over 15 are too old for him) would be too disturbing for a mass audience. So they change the character of the story. They change it from being about a pedophile to being about a man attracted to a precociously budding teenager. Two very different things. I agree that while pedophilia is a sick perversion, to find nubile teenagers physically attractive isn’t abnormal at all, though it would be immoral for an adult act upon such desires.

39

Your take on the situation sounds pretty accurate. In my case I feel guilty for oggling twenty five year olds!

40

BTW, age of consent in Canada is fourteen- and you can not be charged with statutory rape of someone as young as twelve if you yourself are under sixteen and less than two years older than the other party.