This inability on the part of Taiwanese to pronounce correctly the letters of the alphabet has always amazed me. The customary insistence on being taught by a teacher with a certain accent doesn’t appear to have paid any dividends for the Taiwanese. Eh-ko-su is my favourite. I’m sure they could fit another sound in there somewhere if they tried.
Gosh, you guys are so rude…
I was educated in America (8 yrs), yet I still have trouble understanding why you guys made such a big fuss about it. Obviously, the clerk/waiter was just trying to be nice. (as not to create a scene in case you don’t understand him/her)
If i were you, I’d probably thank the clerk(s) afterward for being considerate and respectful. And in my opinion, you guys were acting like bunch of assholes for lashing out at the poor clerks. In situations like the ones you just described, I don’t feel it would be inappropriate to throw you out of the stores.
But again, I dont really understand some of your American logics either.
sigh
[quote=“TongueTwister”]A Taiwanese friend and I go to a store, etc. I ask the person at the store
a question which he or she understands, yet he/she always addresses
my Taiwanese friend instead of me when he/she answers. I never
realized that I had the talent of being invisible so often.[/quote]
I’ve got so used to this “addressing the foreigner through his Chinese companion” practice that I often find myself unconsciously conforming to it and posing questions in Chinese through my girlfriend to the other party or parties we’re dealing with. But I can understand why they do it and don’t let it offend me (unless it’s done by someone who I think should know better).
I have to disagree with you Taiwaner, I don’t think this a case where the clerk or whoever is directing their questions to the person with the most status. Many people are not used to talking to foreigners and feel more comfortable going through a third party. That’s just lack of experience and is easily remedied. All you have to do is start chatting with the person directly in a conversational tone at a speed that makes it impossible not to deal with you directly. You essentially take over the interaction in a very polite way.
I think the reason some foreigners react so negatively in these kinds of situations is that they happen ALL the time. It’s no big deal to be stared at or talked over, or made fun of, but when it happens often enough, it can build up and some poor sod is going to catch hell when it becomes overwhelming. Also, culture shock is not a very good word to explain this whole process. Culture shock implies that a person has some cognitive dissidence when placed in a foreign culture. The problem is complicated when you are not accepted by or marginalized by a culture. If I walk around with a Taiwanese person who is not used to being around foreigners, they are often shocked by the weird, rude and, to be fair, positive behavior that I am exposed to on a daily basis. They often ask me for explanations for such behaivior. “Why is he talking with that weird accent?”, “Why is everyone staring at us?” I am so used to it that I often fail to even notice such behavior.
I also think that this problem is compounded by the fact that a lot of foreigners work hard to learn Chinese and believe that since they spent X amount of years learning Chinese, they are at X level of speaking ability. I often hear foreigners speaking loudly, having arguments and reveling in what is just horrendous Chinese. I myself have been through this stage and am arguably still in it. They get pissed when communication problems arise that are almost solely due to their speaking at a sub-par level. There is a huge difference between speaking to a cooperative person who is used to your way of speaking and speaking to a stranger who has perhaps never even spoken to a native Chinese speaker with a strange accent, much less a foreigner.
I think the whole situation would be a lot better if Taiwanese people just treated foreigners as they would other Taiwanese and tell them if they have problems with their behavior (funny enough, in my experience, this is often the case in Southern Taiwan and Mainland China).
For foreigners, it is helpful to remember that your Chinese may not be nearly good as you think, and that, in most cases, it is not helpful to cause a scene just because you are fed up with a certain kind of behavior. One incident can turn a person into a racist or Xenophobe for life. Despite all this, if someone walks up to you and yells “hello” or “how are you” very loudly in your face and starts laughing with his buddies, it is perfectly acceptable to smack him so hard his mama cries.
Understood. That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks
Well, as much as I hate to admit, I do feel that Taiwanese can be so inconsiderate sometimes - to the point what I would call downright obnoxious.
And You were correct. The kind of behavior you were exposed to is plain rudeness. There’s no excuse for it. On behalf of the people of the United Federation of Renegade States
I think the being talked over / ignored thing is as Chainsmoker said something that builds up to a crescendo, and God help the poor schmuck who’s on the receiving end when it does. I also agree with the crap Chinese thing. Being taken for a fool because you’re a foreigner is pretty hard to take, but isn’t it just “one of those things” ?
I too haven’t a clue how to order Chinese food in a restaurant. I’m never allowed, I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a menu unless the party is made up entirely of foreigners and we have a brief election to see whose Chinese is best and I win. Which was never very often !
Whilst I have eaten the following, I have no idea what they are in Chinese:
Live Shrimps drowned/steamed in Bai Jiu (never again, they jump about too much on the way down)
Raw Crab with Kaohliang dip (yummy)
Deep Fried Pig’s Arse (tasty)
Dog Stew/Soup thing (dunno, I was drunk both times, tasted fine)
Chicken’s Guts (yueerch!)
Chicken’s Gao Wan (hmmm, not bad)
Chicken’s Bloddy Feet (what is it with chickens?)
Barbequed Squid (fantastic)
Very silky Japanese doufu with a slightly crusty exterior skin in Hong Kong where it was called (Yat Poon Dou Fu). Never had the same thing again, and what I have seen as Japanese Doufu since has not been the same thing. It is my mission in life to find it again.
A Myriad of Similar-looking Huge Fish drowned in Chilli Peppers
Turtley-looking thing (jolly nice, probably an endangered species)
But I 100% assure you all that I know what Steamed Chou Doufu is and how to avoid eating it !
I would love to see the menus in English translated the way they really are ! (“Now, who’s for the Chicken Goolies ? Very good, sir. And Pig’s Ears all round then ?”)
[quote=“hexuan”]
I too haven’t a clue how to order Chinese food in a restaurant. I’m never allowed, I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a menu unless the party is made up entirely of foreigners and we have a brief election to see whose Chinese is best and I win. Which was never very often ![/quote]
I’m sorry to hear that. 
After reading all your posts, I’m starting to wonder if this whole ordeal of being talked over/ignored might have just been a case of misunderstanding. The thing is, most Taiwanese people hold the preconception that foreigners are not capable of mastering the Chinese/Taiwanese language(s), since the language by itself is so deep and complex that it can take a great deal of time to master even for native speakers.
Obviously we’re wrong. And I know, it’s pure snobbishness/ignorance on our part. But that’s what most of us think anyway. (I was caught off guard when an African-American guy accosted me and proceeded to chat with me in perfect Mandarin in the street of New York. Being in a state of shock as I was, I went ahead and talked back in English. Now thinking about it, I probably had offended the poor little bugger as well… too bad ). In any case, I can assure you that most likely the clerk didn’t mean you any offense, and he probably was confused as hell when you lashed out at him.
Now granted, I’m probably not the best person to give advices (since I don’t have any expat friend), but I’ll offer my take on this matter anyway. I believe There are some easy steps you can take to remedy the problems:
-
Ask your friends to form a line behind you and let you do all the talking as to make it clear to the clerks/sales persons/whoever you’re dealing with that you are the one who’s in charge.
-
Write your request to have your own menu on a piece of paper in advance. If you’re in a group, ask nicely (in your best Mandarin/Taiwanese of course) “Excuse me! May I have my own menu plz?” or just wave your hands and yell “Hello! I’m the guy who’s in charge here!” I’m sure most waiters/waitresses would have responded in a positive manner by now. If not, then proceed and hand the pre-written note to the waiter/waitress. (How about giving the guy who serve you the benefit of the doubt? Perhaps language barrier was at blame. You never know.)
Oh, and I wouldn’t worry too much about being rude. We are not really the sensitive, easily-offended type.
Later…
mj:
dunno if that’s the answer you were looking for (see previous post, and as a customer, you certainly have the right to demand better service, right?). I would definitely say no if you ask me. (that doesnt really sound like a big deal to me. ) Like i said, I’m probably not the best guy to answer your question. Maybe one of you expats can pitch in & help? 
see ya
Genius!!!
Taiwaner
Thank you for the explanation. It is a little clearer how these things happen now. I give a lot of leeway to older people when this happens. However with younger people I tend not to give as much. If someone can speak English as well as some of the clerks they probably went to some sort of English bushiban and had some contact with foreigners before. They watch movies don’t they. I mean we are not aliens. Some of them well it might be the first time…but this is Taipei for Christsakes not PingTung.
Imagine you work hard all day (not me, just imagine 
). Then you do your best to learn chinese and become an interactive member of society. You are an independent person, you LIKE being independent. But almost every time you go into a 7-11 with your partner you are ignored or overrided. It’ll get to you. As you can see from some of the posts.
It’s a culture shock yes, I agree. However I am amazed sometimes if
the clerks have no idea why I am getting worked up. So what if my chinese is bad. They don’t have to ask my girlfriend how much the paper and the milk is do they if I just said hello to them in chinese. I put it down to a lack of socialization from too much study or something. I don’t know, maybe it’s a messed up confucian thing (what a joker he was).
No-one likes to feel like this. Shit I feel terrible after it’s happened (it’s only happened once or twice). My girlfriend thinks I don’t get Taiwan, ‘I don’t like the people here’, which is not true. It doesn’t happen so often anymore.
What you said helps me understand though. The body language thing is very important I realise, especially the ‘shifty’ eyes. What I have misinterpreted as ‘ignoring the problem’ is actually the way people are taught to behave I see.
Since it doesn’t happen at work or in a university environment I guess it’s a social and class issue, higher ups don’t behave the same way as working class people to foreigners due to the lack of familiarisation (which was exactly true in my home nation until a lot of immigration occurred recently)
Once again I stress that Taiwanese people are to a fault usually very polite ‘in their own polite system’. I know this, they really appreciate foreigners. I understand the foreigners are treated at the top of the ‘politeness’ scale by locals usually. It’s just that ‘Kan Meiguoren’ from kids and talking over people doesn’t appear anywhere in this scale.
You tell a taiwanese you work for a taiwanese company or work here for a long time, they love it. Hao li hai oh! Taxi drivers, clerks,
business people etc. It’s a good feeling and makes up for any negative feelings along the way.
I live in a small place. How come I don’t have those problems? The locals seem to understand what I am saying. Odd.
headhonchoII:
Hey, dont mention it, and please excuse my ramblings. I’m sure glad to be of some help. Actually, I thought Chainsmoker’s post was pretty informative and probably made more sense than mine. Still, I thought I’d pitch in and throw in my two cents’ worth anyway. Since being a former expat myself, I can certainly relate to what you’re going through 
The truth is, many of us who have experience of living and studying abroad had to undergo distress and hardship associated with living in an unfamiliar culture just like you. We had to face the same level of frustration on a daily basis just like what you are going through now.
To give a quick example.
More often than not when someone could not understand my English (at school, bank… u name it. and it always seemed to me that they never made an effort to try to understand me. and that was outrageous!), he/she would simply ask me to write down what I intended to say on a piece of paper. To me, that kind of request was downright insulting. Surely you can understand why I felt that way right?
So hey, as you can see, many of us have all been there. And I have no doubt that you’ll eventually pull through. And you know, I had second thoughts about posting my previous message as soon as I hit the post button. I was wondering if I was being too verbose in my post since a lot of what i wrote was nothing but common sense to most of us (you).
Now after reading what you wrote, I feel your friends are not being particularly supportive/helpful. 
Surly this whole cultural difference thinggy must have popped up at some point during your conversation right? Perhaps what you should do is to indulge yourself in more meaningful conversation(s) and try harder to immerse yourself in the culture… i dunno if that’s a sound advice or not. So plz dont shoot me as I’m simply trying to help 
Like I said, some of the behaviors you described are simply inexcusable. And I will make no attempt at justifying them. On the other hand, (not sure if this is how we strike you) we tend to be shy around people. So, just to keep that in mind.
Okay, I think I better shut up now. Before Forum Police Mr. ChainSmoker decides to chase after me and make me correct myself again
<— slowly trudge away and exit the scene
Good luck!
Hey, don’t look at me. Actually, I think Monkey’s Dilbert comic may be the closest to the truth. I agree that you have to be careful looking for for theories or explanations that cover the breadth of human behavior. There is nothing more annoying than listening to a bunch of expats profer explanations for Taiwanese behavior. That being said, I think its kind of a cop out and somewhat depressing to simply say that nothing can be explained or that nothing makes sense. You gotta try despite the fact that the answers you come up with are inevitably flawed.
If you’re a monkey you can stay up a tree eating bananas all day and shitting on people
But what do you do when the monkeys higher up start shitting on you?
I forget…isn’t this thread about pet peeves? I come from a land where they spend inordinate amounts of money over the language on street signs and businesses. I grew up with the stupidity of making language a law. Did you know that if you and your partner wanted to live in Quebec…your children would have no choice (other than private or home-schooling) but to go to a French school. I shake my head in amazement at alot of the trivial peacocking we, as individuals or societies, perpetrate for the sake of pride. Such balderdash…really.
Now, I do not want to disabuse you of what are some very live feelings here. This is a thread to air out what’s ‘buggin y’out’? Although “Pet Peeves” to me anyway, would imply something we love to hate…like paying for garbage bags…misguiding and expensive as it may be, it is motivated by attempting to do something about this eco-hazard we call home. I digress…apolly-ollies!
Pride…we were talking about P-R-I-D-E…is this a useful bag to carry on our journey of life? When it comes to multi-lingualism…I have always found that people around the world are always so pleased that you are at least trying to communicate. I speak maybe 10 words of Japanese and 6 of Farsi…but I use them all the time if in Japan or Iran…I speak French fluently, with an appalling accent…which,I’ve (ahem) been told…is very sexy. I find my interactions with the local populi always a laugh-fest. My Mandarin is still in the basement…taxi directions, “no bag”, various bad-pronuciations of some verbs and food items…and yet I can’t imagine ever being insulted at being “talked around”…if I had the proficiency of speaking intelligible Mandarin, I would be using it to beat my “interpretors” to the punch, and then a quick couple of MaYo Gwanchi"s and your off in Hao Hao Hao Dui Dui Dui heaven.
I am Shakespearean-trained…
I don’t get upset when you fair fellows
and fellettes use nary an iamb in thine prose
If internal rhyme t’were indeed a crime,
we’d have not the time nor peace of mind
to quill fine lines of words sublime
Language is fun, as is this poetic run
Yet you come undone, more than some
When some local crumb-bum
Figures you don’t speak his tongue
Prove him wrong I say, simply wrest away,
From your Xia-jie,
the dialogue that puts you in dismay
Say not Nay but Sieze the Day
[quote=“taiwaner”][quote=“dl7und”]When I’m out with a taiwanese friend and I’m buying/ordering something somewhere in Chinese and get a similar response like TongueTwister, having the clerk/whatever asking my friend “How can he speak Chinese?” or the like then I hurry to answer before him/her “Of course he/she speaks Chinese, he/she is a Taiwanese, born in Taiwan.”
Sometimes it takes a while to understand my response, but in most cases the “problem” is solved…[/quote][/quote]
I am Shakespearean-trained…
I don’t get upset when thou fair fellows
and fellettes use nary an iamb in thine prose
If internal rhyme t’were indeed a crime,
we’d have not the time nor peace of mind
to quill fine lines of words sublime
Language is fun, as is this poetic run
Yet you come undone, more than some
When some local crumb-bum
Figures you don’t speak his tongue
Prove him wrong I say, simply wrest away,
From your Xia-jie,
the dialogue that puts you in dismay
Say not Nay but Sieze the Day
I really don’t like Taiwan much, either… But I don’t have much of a choice. I am Taiwanese and I couldn’t get a decent job in the US, so I came back. Why are you still here anyway if you are so disgusted by everything we do? I am sure if you were a better person yourself, you would definitely meet better Taiwanese. I’ve seen Americans blowing their noses in a restaurant and talking loud on the bus. I am not here to argue with anyone. Just hoping that you can be fair to this country that’s giving you the amount of money you could never make in your own country. I met so many great people when I was in the US, and I never felt discriminated or something. I hope some people here are able to say the same thing one day…
Please don’t let these posts offend you. For the most part it’s just people blowing off steam, as I’m sure you were doing with your post.
As for making more money in Taiwan than in, for example, the US, for the most part it’s simply not true although people seem to have this impression. It seems from the tenor of some of the posts here that 100,000 NTD/month is considered a good salary for for a foreign teacher. That’s only about 34,000 USD per year, and most teaching jobs don’t include paid vacations, 401K programs, bonuses, etc, that are part of the overall compensation package for employment in the US. The average elementary teacher’s salary in the US is at least that, and includes a whole heck of a lot of vacation days plus a retirement program. And we’re not even considering the extra costs associated with living in a foreign country–flights back home for vacations, private school costs for children, international telephone bills…Granted, tax rates here are significantly lower than in the States, but there are also oportunity costs to consider. Buying a home, career development, etc.