Hi,
If there is a thread somewhere, please suggest it.
I’m trying to figure out (short of investing years to do it), what the connection is between the “KK” phonics system that kids are taught in Taiwan and other systems used in the West.
Symbols different?
Sounds skipped or added?
Is KK the standard system used in the UK, for example?
There is another phonics system (symbology) called IAP? Relationship to KK?
Thanks,
Seeker4
As far as I know the KK system is only used in Taiwan. Presumably it was formulated to represent American pronunciation as opposed to British, although the International Phonetic Alphabet, being international, could have done that quite adequately. The KK system is derived from the IPA but it is a bad system for the following reasons:
Students are supposed to remember which symbols are long vowels, which short, and which are dipthongs. Most students fail to do so, and that is no help at all to Taiwanese students’ efforts to attain good English pronunciation.
Taiwan is different! KK, Bo Po Mo Fo, screwed-up pinyin, etc. Who else uses these?
IN some dictionaries…there are KK symbols…most native speakers however do not know what the symbols mean. One of my bosses in the past had an excellent Chinese English dictionary with both the British and American phonetics. She liked the British English more but often hired North American teachers.
The thing I hate about it. Is the fact that I am teaching it and I had a New Zealand accent before coming to Taiwan but even though the accent has changed I struggle with the North American vowel sounds.
you’re not the only one to struggle. i came over with my NA accent, but somehow i have to teach the students that the KK for the second syllable of monday thru sunday is /I/, as in short sound, at least according to the dictionaries they are supposed to use. while this may even be viewed as correct, especially from a prescriptive view, it just doesn’t match what i have been taught, nor how i tend to speak (door’s wide open here, i realize) 
i’m studying a little about this, because i’m tired of telling studnets "the dictionary says one thing, i say another, and the teacher in the next room says it yet another way. most of them too young to understand anyway, but never too young to ask, “why, teacher?” 
Many people think KK is a Taiwan only system, it was, however, developed in the US.
You are right Fox it was developed in the US but it’s ONLY used in Taiwan. Apparently it was considered good enough for use in the US.
It was be interesting to learn more about KK. As in why the Taiwanese have decided to use it. Why when the rest of the world don’t use they think it’s still effective. From what I understand they have stopped teaching KK in elementry school and now gets taught in High School (I believe I read that in the newspaper).
I have read the other thread about KK but it too didn’t really provide a lot of information. I’ve done Internet searchers and the results mainly come back in Chinese (from Taiwan). So there doesn’t seem to be much information about KK anywhere. Does anyone have any more ideas?
didn’t they announce last year that KK was gonna get phased out?
Most US phonics books treat that sound as a long E. The general rule for the long vowel sound is that the vowel say its name.
But the KK uses the same symbol as the short i (sit). How does that work?
Maybe I’m not doing it right. I’m learning Bo pa ma fa now and can naturally combine the oo and the long O sound to get the Chinese WO/WU.
But I really don’t know how that works either?
Help solve the mystery. Thanks.
No, I’m not a Brit, but all of this bullshit about KK is just too much. Kenyon and Knott (that’s where the KK comes from) were a couple of guys in HK who were trying to evangelize the heathen by trying to teach them how to speak English before giving them soap. And, the taiwanese are still trying to shove KK down the throats of its kids.
Usuall the teaching of KK is done i n the buxibans by the taiwanese teachers and if you really think they know what they are doing, just listen to their horrendous pronunciation.
KK? Ka Ka! Or as they say in Mexico, caca!
KK was an idea that was soon spent inits own day of inception, but the taiwanese in their afan to know more than anybody else about everything decided that it was the best way to teach taiwanese kids to pronounce English. This is just because the taiwanese teachers speak nothing more than gobbeldygook broken English in one or two word sentences.
I have met several taiwanese English teachers (jr and sr) and after after a few cursory pleasantries in English, there is complete dead silence, until I speak to them in Mandarin, and then they will inevitably reply to me with a laugh and broken English.
So much for KK and how useful it is for taiwanese students. The ones that can really read and speak have learned phonics from other forms than KK.
KK is dead, and it is a worthless use of student’s time.
Bollocks. What students need is a system that does not confuse them with symbols that represent negligable differences in sound. The only problem with KK is the way it may sometimes have been taught.
Just my opinion-- I’ve taught esl both in my home country and here-- KK is a redundant system. It serves no useful function and often yields strange-sounding pronunciations. I’ve always taught using English phonics without feeling the need for a parallel phonetic system. Time spent teaching the KK system could be better spent on the other skills Taiwanese students desperately need to brush up on.
KK is not a diagram of the speech organs so it is not likely to yield “strange pronunciations.” Perhaps you haven’t noticed but second language speakers tend to yield more or less strange pronunciation no matter what you do. KK is useful because it presents a parallel system that has symbols with only one sound each. The trick is to teach the relationship between the two. Teaching English without KK or some other system is like building a house without a hammer.
Sorry I don’t mean to be obnoxious but I have fairly strong opinions on the issue which have come from rather a lot of success improving (at least somewhat) the pronunciation of adults.
The hammer analogy is an over statement by the way.
Cheers.
As I said above, one of the two major failings of the KK system is that it represents some dipthongs with a single symbol, i.e. one symbol to represent two sounds (phones). The International Phonetic Alphabet doesn’t do that - it is strictly one syllable-one sound. In the People’s Republic of China they use the IPA. When I taught English in Beijing, I used the IPA to teach both British and American readings. I agree with Bob that a phonetic system is useful, particularly when a learner does not have a teacher on hand to tell him/her how to pronounce things. However, the KK system is inferior to the IPA - in fact it is a flawed rip-off of the IPA.
…
Reference:
IPA and subsitute symbols for American English vowel sounds
Resources for studying spoken English (I think you’ll like these, Bob!)
p.s. In Chinese, the International Phonetic Alphabet is called wanguo yinbiao 國際音標, KK being KK yinbiao.
Related threads:
Juba I suspect that a dipthong to your sensitive ears may not be a dipthong to the rest of us mere mortals.
Two problmes with KK.
I disagree with you about the one symbol - one sound thing. KK fucks it up. It’s shite even as a phonetic system. For example, coffe, father and walk, all have the same sound in KK. What bollocks.
A phonetic system is unnecessary and counter-productive int he teaching of English. Just etach a good phonics programme.
Brian
[quote=“bob”]KK is not a diagram of the speech organs so it is not likely to yield “strange pronunciations.” Perhaps you haven’t noticed but second language speakers tend to yield more or less strange pronunciation no matter what you do. KK is useful because it presents a parallel system that has symbols with only one sound each. The trick is to teach the relationship between the two. Teaching English without KK or some other system is like building a house without a hammer.
Sorry I don’t mean to be obnoxious but I have fairly strong opinions on the issue which have come from rather a lot of success improving (at least somewhat) the pronunciation of adults.
The hammer analogy is an over statement by the way.
Cheers.[/quote]
While you are entitled to your strong opinions, you ought to phrase them in away that isn’t belittling to those who disagree (and believe me there is room for legitimate debate on this issue). When I talk about pronunciations, I am not referring to ESL learners accents. I am sick of non-English speaking parents and barely English speaking teachers "correcting’ my pronunciation because it does not exactly reflect that of their dictionary’s KK. Refer what x-train wrote about days of the week for an example of what I mean by strange pronunciations.
I have been teaching ESL for 7 years now. I have experience here and in my home country. I have taught all levels and more nationalities of learners than I can recall to memory. I have taught with and without KK. Because of this, I feel I am entitled to my professional opinion with regards to KK. It has been my experience that it is easier to teach English without a system such as KK. Your house without a hammer metaphor is not a sound one. The principal reason for this is the “house” (English) comes preassembled (ie with its own phonetic system). Therefore no further assembly or tools are required. In fact, to carry your metaphor further, any attempt to do so will yield few benefits and may actually hinder construction. Teaching KK takes away valuable instruction time that could be spent strengthening other skills and has students running to their dictionaries for pronunciation instead of sounding out the word themselves (using their reading and phonics skills). Whenever I have taught without KK, I have found students progress much faster and are definitely not handicapped by the lack of a parallel system. Of all the nationalities I have taught, Taiwanese are the only ones I’ve encountered that insists on using KK. If it were such a great system, you’d think others would have caught on by now.
I’m sure all of us mere mortals engage in this type of response from time to time, but it really does confuse me. Why do we seem to have a tendency to recast knowledge or skill superior to our own as excessive or superfluous? How do we think that we can effectively encourage our own students to excel if we depreciate excellence?
Good responses on phonics, IPA, and KK. Thanks a lot to all.
K.K. isn’t perfect and in fact the system that I use is a slightly modified version of it, and I don’t even use that very often. However there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that phonetic symbols are sometimes a useful aid. The symbols for short and long A for example prove useful…Students says “Kate”…Teacher says “no it’s short A” (teacher writes what looks like two sixes doing a sixty nine on the board - demonstrates tongue/jaw positions)… remember I taught you the difference? Ah, yes. “Meow” says student… IPA uses the same symbol for short A so no worries yeah.
Bu lai an - Coffee father and walk may have different vowel sounds but I certainly can’t hear them, and if you think that you will be able to get Taiwanese to consistently distinguish between them in spoken discourse, well, you might be better off taking your father for a walk to the coffee shop.
TS - I think you need to decide whether or not the house is built yet or not. In one sentence you tell me you don’t think my analogy is sound and in the next you use it yourself. At least that is what I think you did. To be honest it is hard to tell what with all the attempts to use a hammer to build a house that came preassembled and all I got a little confused. Are we still talking about sex? In any case TS what with seven years uinder your belt and all I am sure you know of what you speak.
Seeker - I didn’t depreciate. In fact I didn’t even deprecate. I merely made referance to Juba’s highly sensitive ears. I do however think that it is a waste of time teaching different symbols for different sounds if the students can not and will not ever be able to either hear or produce those different sounds themselves.
Excuse me I need to take my father for a walk to the coffee shop.