Poagao, having seen your ‘Alphadoah’ film. I think an equally amusing film could be made about this phenomenon.
From Jennifer M.Y. Wei’s article:
Translation to standard English: Beijingers and anybody who tries to speak like them are a bunch of pretentious and arrogant prics. Gee, what an original idea for a “scholarly” paper. Can anyone count the number of “I”'s in this essay?
Well, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t. For people who hardly speak any English, it’s not really code-switching; but for the people I was talking about at the beginning of the thread, it is code-switching, because they have a good command of two different languages, yet choose to mix them for whatever reason.
Well, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t. For people who hardly speak any English, it’s not really code-switching; but for the people I was talking about at the beginning of the thread, it is code-switching, because they have a good command of two different languages, yet choose to mix them for whatever reason.[/quote]
So what does the student of linguistics call it when somebody who isn’t really bilingual uses a bunch of English words in his or her speech?
Well, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t. For people who hardly speak any English, it’s not really code-switching; but for the people I was talking about at the beginning of the thread, it is code-switching, because they have a good command of two different languages, yet choose to mix them for whatever reason.[/quote]
Do you suppose they do it for interjection or sentence fillers? What kinds of words do they codeswitch? Lexical words? It might be interesting to record them some time (if possible) in order to analyze the usage. It could turn out to be a phenomenon inherent to this discourse community, or others similar (academic, corporate). I know a lot of folks working for multinationals do it when it’s also unnecessary, so it could be a ‘code’ in itself. I understand that it’s a no-no for your field, but even so, in non-translating situations, perhaps they’re unaware of it, or it is used to imply ‘status’, as many have suggested here.
Well, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t. For people who hardly speak any English, it’s not really code-switching; but for the people I was talking about at the beginning of the thread, it is code-switching, because they have a good command of two different languages, yet choose to mix them for whatever reason.[/quote]
So what does the student of linguistics call it when somebody who isn’t really bilingual uses a bunch of English words in his or her speech?[/quote]
OK, I have the answer to this question from a good authority. I emailed Noam Chomsky and he gave me a swift reply. According to Noam, after deconstructing this issue, the community of linguistic scholars has arrived at the general consensus that a non-blingual person who constantly drops unnecessary foreign lexical items into his or her discourse should be referred to as “a dickhead.”
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a “lexical word?” I thought lexical means “related to words” or “dealing with words.” Does this mean that “lexical words” are “words that are related to words?”
Lexical words are non-grammatical words. Everchanging words in our vocabularies, not stagnant ones. They are nouns, adverbs, adjectives, verbs. But try to do a lexical density analysis to suss out word classes. Not easy! 
I think some of you are being a bit harsh on the ‘English droppers’ (to differentiate those who may not be truly bilingual but pepper their Chinese with a few English words, from the true ‘code-switchers’). I admit that sometimes English is thrown in to ‘impress’ people in the presence of a foreigner, but I think most of the time it’s not intended that way. A lot of people mix Taiwanese and Japanese words in with their Mandarin too, and it’s usually particular words, not random parts of a sentence. I think these are really just the precursors of borrowings. Would we dis as pretentious an English speaker throwing in the word ‘rendezvous’ in a sentence? How about ‘chic’? ‘Bon apetit’? ‘tres …’? Nothing wrong with throwing in some foreign words that everyone knows just for fun. It’s tres putong diu m diu?
Brian
My professors at NTU constantly code-switch in their lectures, using a lot of complicated, technical vocabulary. I’m not sure whether it’s them trying to show off to the other students, or because I’m there and they want to show off to me that they can speak English, or think that I wouldn’t understand the Chinese terms (which isn’t the case for most of the words they’ve chosen to “code-switch” on). The problem is, it pisses off my Taiwanese classmates whose English is very very bad (students in the Chinese dept. are notorious for having the lowest English ability in the entire school). So not only is this “phenomenon” annoying, but it can cause a lot of resentment as well. Unfortunately, I can’t really do anything about it since they’re my professors.
Going off topic-sorry. I’ll let you explain “lexical density analysis” on another day. So lexical words inlclude nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs. When you say “grammatical words,” is that the same as what some Chinese textbooks refer to as function words 虚词? Would that include conjunctions and prepositions? Anything else?
Talk about Mandarin/Taiwanese code switching. I asked for guavas by their Taiwanese name for three years before I realized that bala wasn’t mandarin. Since I had ‘learned’ the word, I never bothered looking it up, and I never associated fan1shi2liu2 with bala for some reason. Hey, we can’t all be Einsteins. 
[quote=“stodgy”]…I asked for guavas by their Taiwanese name for three years before I realized that bala wasn’t Mandarin. Since I had ‘learned’ the word, I never bothered looking it up, and I never associated fan1shi2liu2 with bala for some reason. Hey, we can’t all be Einsteins. :-)[/quote]I’ve been told that the Mandarin for guava can be bale as opposed to the Taiwanese bala. Children sometimes use ‘bala’ as an insult meaning ‘bad guy’.
It’s time for my bala story…
Several months after I started work in Taiwan, a new child turned up in one of my classes. He was a classmate (in regualar school) of some of the other students. From the outset, he was extremely reluctant to speak and seemed to be angry with everybody. I asked him nicely what his name was. No answer. Asking him again produced no result. Then, one of his ‘school friends’ told me “His name is Bala!” I asked the friend “Are you sure? I’ve never heard that name before.” More of the students eagerly told me “Oh yes, teacher, his name is Bala.”
I wrote it on the board. I wrote it in the register. All through the class, I gently tried to encourage little Bala to speak; “Come on Bala, it’s OK. Don’t worry Bala.” all the time not realising that ‘Bala’ meant ‘stupid guy’ or ‘bad guy’ and the kids were winding me up.
[quote=“Bu Lai En”]I think some of you are being a bit harsh on the ‘English droppers’ (to differentiate those who may not be truly bilingual but pepper their Chinese with a few English words, from the true ‘code-switchers’). I admit that sometimes English is thrown in to ‘impress’ people in the presence of a foreigner, but I think most of the time it’s not intended that way. A lot of people mix Taiwanese and Japanese words in with their Mandarin too, and it’s usually particular words, not random parts of a sentence. I think these are really just the precursors of borrowings. Would we dis as pretentious an English speaker throwing in the word ‘rendezvous’ in a sentence? How about ‘chic’? ‘Bon apetit’? ‘tres …’? Nothing wrong with throwing in some foreign words that everyone knows just for fun. It’s tres putong diu m diu?
Brian[/quote]Your comparison with English borrowings from French is interesting. In my mind, though, Mandarin and English just don’t borrow words in the same way. Yes, I guess all languages are to some degree combinations of the languages from which they have borrowed. However, I think English is a language that borrows more easily than Mandarin.
We’ve used the word rendezvous for centuries. Perhaps the first time somebody used it in the English language, people thought it was pretentious as well. Or maybe the reason someone decided to use it is because the meaning of the word “meet” was more narrow than now (just a guess). The difference I see between English and Mandarin is that English can, or at least has, borrowed so many foreign words that 99% of English speakers would never take note of their “foreignness” when hearing or using them in a conversation. Mandarin is just not like that. Yes, it does have words that have been borrowed from foreign languages, but the number is much smaller than foreign words that are used in English. There were plenty of Chinese transliterations of foreign words used in the early 20th century. Some of these have survived; quite a lot have not. The reason is that since Mandarin is not written with an alphabet, it is more difficult to make lasting borrowings from other languages. However, Taiwanese and Cantonese speakers have borrowed a lot more foreign words than Mandarin. This isn’t just because the speakers of these dialects have been exposed to foreigners. I think it is also because Cantonese speakers still write in Mandarin style, while most Taiwanese speakers never wrote at all. If you don’t have to worry about how to write a foreign word in your language, then maybe it is a lot easier to borrow it. Maybe we should make a rule that Taiwanese can use any Japanese or English words they like when they are speaking Taiwanese, but they aren’t allowed to do it when the speak Guoyu.
I might sometimes use the word rendezvous. I don’t think I’ve ever said “chic” or “bon apatit” in my whole life. Sure, I know what they mean, but I think it sounds pretentious for an English speaker to use them. I may also get a little annoyed when I come to Latin or French phrases in English writing. If I understand them, they really don’t bother me. Sometimes the Latin (but of course not the damn French 
) might express an idea better than English. However, I get really annoyed when someone uses Latin, or more often French, that is incomprehensible to an educated English speaker who has never studied those languages.
I don’t completely object to dropping foreign words when speaking a language. What bothers me is when I hear people using foreign words that either don’t need to be used or won’t be understood by the listener. I have seen plenty of situations where a Taiwanese or HKer uses English words that just don’t need to be used. I especially hear this across the border in Guangdong. We have some HK staff who rarely ever drop English words when talking to other HK people, but when they speak to mainlanders in Cantonese, they suddenly feel the need to pepper up everything they say with unnecessary English just so they can feel different from them. Yes, different people may use foreign words for different reasons, but the motive I most often see is that the speaker wants to show how different or special he or she is. Human nature, I suppose. I’m not an advocate of “purifying” the English or Chinese languages. However, my yijian is that ruguo we are going to yong or jie foreign words, there should be a meaningful liyou for doing so. 
Buying lunch today I heard an 80 year old obasan (oops there i go), speaking Taiwanese, dropping in ‘xiao case, xiao case’. How’s that for some double language foreign word dropping! I’m pretty sure she wasn’t trying to impress me, or Mandarin speakers either.
Brian
Bala…Um… It means more than bad or stupid guy.
The most famous phrase is “(I) BANANA your BALA.”
It means “(I) fu*k you.”
BALA is cheap. So you say he is a BALA. Yes, he is something cheap, like “bad guy” or “stupid guy.”
BALA isn’t so tasty. He is a BALA. He always makes things worse.
BALA sometimes has a very nasty or negative implication. You have to judge by their voice, tone, facial expression.
Hi JT, I can see “foreignness” of these words:
Genre, Dejavu, debut, cliche, macho, etc. Is it because I am not an English native speaker?
I don’t agree. For Taiwanese, because Taiwan had once a colony of Japan, it absorbed too many words from Japan and continues to absorb now.
ANADA(honey,dear), KUKE(rest, sexual implication), KARAOKE, RAZIO(radio), PUN(bun)
If you ask why Mandarin didn’t and doesn’t, I guess: first Japanese never completely colonized China so there is no emotional or physical ties. China is geographically bigger and culturally stronger, and it is more difficult to be influenced and affected. Mandarin has abilities to borrow words from English. Yesterday my language pal taught me a word “Crepe”, which in Chinese is "
Well sometimes I’ll drop in a few words of Mandarin when I talk with my Taiwanese friends. I find myself saying negeh and naguh alot it’s just out of habit.
Banana your Bala
Hmmm… What is the Taiwanese word for Banana. I’d like to know this sentence… Please write like this " (Banana)Li e Bala" if you can.
[quote=“kimichen”]Hi JT, I can see “foreignness” of these words:
Genre, Dejavu, debut, cliche, macho, etc. Is it because I am not an English native speaker? [/quote]
No, I don’t think it is because you’re a non-native speaker, or because you are more “aware” of language than the average person. The reason you can pick these words out is because they are (relatively) obviously “foreign” to most people. Except for “macho,” all are from French. We native English speakers automatically recognize these Frog words because they are a stain on our language. 
There are a lot more words in the English language that have come from other languages that are not understood as foreign by anyone except those who study etymology. I imagine that for educated English speakers, some words are obviously foreign but may not be used by all (chic, bon apetit…); some words are obviously foreign but most speakers will be comfortable with using them (macho is a pretty useful word); some words are only noticed as foreign when a person actually thinks about the origin of the word; while some words might be noticed as foreign, but except for scholars, most people wouldn’t know their origins. Then there are words that were originally “foreign,” but only scholars would notice their foreignness; a darn lot of English words fall in this last category. This is only considering whole words. Some words are a combination of parts from different languages.
[quote=“kimichen”] don’t agree. For Taiwanese, because Taiwan had once a colony of Japan, it absorbed too many words from Japan and continues to absorb now.
ANADA(honey,dear), KUKE(rest, sexual implication), KARAOKE, RAZIO(radio), PUN(bun)
If you ask why Mandarin didn’t and doesn’t, I guess: first Japanese never completely colonized China so there is no emotional or physical ties. China is geographically bigger and culturally stronger, and it is more difficult to be influenced and affected. Mandarin has abilities to borrow words from English. Yesterday my language pal taught me a word “Crepe”, which in Chinese is “¥iÄR»æ”(“ke3li4 bing3”).
[/quote]
Uh, just what exactly is it that you don’t agree with? You seem to say that you disagree with my statement that Mandarin doesn’t borrow as easily as English, but then you go on to support exactly what I said about Taiwanese borrowing more easily than Mandarin by bringing up words like karaoke and razio. Just because many Taiwanese use these words when they speak Minnanhua or Mandarin doesn’t mean that they’ve been completely borrowed into “standard” mandarin. Aside from karaoke, I can’t find the rest of the words you cited in any ROC or PRC dictionary I own. In my opinion, a word has been completely borrowed when it has appeared in standard dictionaries. You may find this to be a conservative standard, but it is the most stable standard.
If you are going to argue that Mandarin borrows just as easily as English, you’ll be going against the opinions of the majority of linguistics scholars in the PRC, Taiwan and the rest of the world. There are plenty of reasons why English can borrow a French word more easily than Chinese can borrow an English or French word. To me, the simplest reason is that English just borrows the word as is. We don’t need to change the spelling. We might drop an accent mark since that isn’t English; we might also “correct” the pronunciation so that it sounds more English. For Mandarin, there has to be consensus for how to write the word in Chinese before it can be considered completely borrowed. Even in the PRC, where the government is fairly organized about standardization of foreign words rendered in Chinese, there are different ways to write a lot of words.
How would you know how deep or shallow I think Taiwanese is? I’ve said nothing about it except that most Taiwanese speakers have never written the language. It’s a simple fact. You can attach whatever meaning you like to that statement. Yes, some professors can recite literary Chinese in Taiwanese. Can the average person with a bachelor’s degree do it? No. However, my wife can read aloud most classical texts in Cantonese-it rhymes pretty darn well, too. She has no specialist degree; she hasn’t even gone to a Chinese class since secondary school. This doesn’t prove anything about how deep or shallow Taiwanese is. It just shows that Cantonese speakers have done better at preserving their ability to read Chinese in Cantonese.
Where have I made an abrupt generalization? I said that using foreign words is fine if there is a need to do so and the listener can understand. I then went on to describe an environment in which I often hear people use foreign words that are unnecessary and confusing for the listener. Furthermore, the issue isn’t “freedom of using languages,” but whether or not using foreign words enhances or inhibits communication. If a person wants to use faddish words or words that aren’t clear to his or her audience, then that is his or her choice. I won’t be impressed, though.
[quote=“Bassman”]Banana your Bala
Hmmm… What is the Taiwanese word for Banana. I’d like to know this sentence… Please write like this " (Banana)Li e Bala" if you can.[/quote]
Banana is Mandarin. Bala is Taiwanese.
To here this sentence: http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/55f305b0/bc/fun/BananaBala.mp3?bfaE8._AEZgwoQVj
I try to say it peacefully.