The other thread seems to have gotten too long and sticky. So please continue your meaningless natter here. Meaningful natter probably deserves its own thread.
OK …here’s a question for everyone in a gam/gwm relationship…what’s the biggest hurdle you had to overcome? I mean I have some serious trouble communicating sometimes. I say yes, he takes it to mean no ??? And what’s up with this let’s be boyfriends ‘the morning after?’ Or some guys I’ve talked to don’t want to wait that long…Is the ‘western concept’ of ‘boyfriends’ different than the Taiwanese one? Am I the only one this happens to? Anyway, just thought I’d try to get the ball rolling on our new thread…
Interesting question. Thanks for asking it. 
I think I’ve already mentioned this many times before. But, I’ll do it again. 
The biggest hurdle, initially, was moving here in the first place. When we first started dating, my bf (who I met in the US) told me that after he graduated from grad school, he may have to return to Taiwan if he couldn’t get a job in the US. I said that that was ok, if our relationship lastet that long (still another 7 months) and it was serious, I would be willing to move with him.
He was able to stay an extra year (and, therefore, put off the impending move) on his student visa. However, in the end, he had to return to Taiwan since he couldn’t get a work visa. So, in order to keep us together (neither of us wanted to break up or have a long-distance relationship), I kept my promise and moved with him.
Niether of us really had expected to or wanted to move here. In many ways we… well, I… felt we were “forced” by circumstances to do this. So, I kind of came here with a bad attitude and have found it very hard to adjust to life in Taiwan. I am now doing better at adjusting and accepting our life here. Though, we are still hoping to move out of Taiwan in a year or so.
The other big hurdle is how much we are “in the closet” here. In the US were were pretty open about our relationship. We didn’t shout it to the world, but neither did we hide it. Of course, both of us were far from our family and the friends we grew up with. So, it was easier to be ourselves -i.e., less worry over what “people” might think. Here, however, we are pretty much closeted (i.e., just friends) around his family and at work.
For my bf, there is now the issue of his family and his high school/ university friends to “think of.” Though, he has already told his parents, sister and one cousin (who is also gay and, subsequently, told his own parents about him) that he is gay, he still worries about what the rest of his family will say. And, he worries about how his parents will react to others knowing and how the others will treat his parents because of it. Intellectually, he knows that he shouldn’t care how they (family or friends) react to his being gay, but emotionally he does care. So, he has found it hard to “out” himself to them.
He also made the decision when he started his job not to tell his coworkers. He wasn’t sure how they would react and was afraid that, if they reacted poorly, he’d have trouble being successful in his job. And, he really wanted to be able to do well in this job, with the hope that the experience will make it easier to get a job outside of Taiwan. So, when asked about having a girlfriend, or being gay, since some apparently suspect, he tells them it is his personal business and refuses to answer.
His attitude about telling his old friends, family and coworkers I understand and can, intellectually, accept. Hell, I still haven’t told many of my old friends and family. But, since we are not around any of my family and/or friends, I don’t have to deal with it like he does now.
Even so, emotionally, I often find it hard to “censor” myself in relationship to being his boyfriend around these people (I now work at the same company). I have no desire to “out” him, either accidentally or on purpose. So, I try to be very careful. But, sometimes I just want to scream when I have to treat him as “just a friend.”
I’d be curious as to how others deal with being “out” or “in” while living in Taiwan. Do you tell everyone or just some? How do you tell them? How do they react? Do you ever feel the need to be “in the closet,” either for your bf or for other reasons? Etc…
Hmmm… maybe this would be better as a separate thread. I’ll go start it now.
It helps to be clear from the start about what you want, and say it. It also helps to live in a building with security. I don’t think the Western concept of boyfriends is any different. I’ve met some psychotic clingers in the US too, and I’ve been in that role as well. I think these problems are pretty universal.
It is 100% apparent that you and Maoman think our chatter is meaningless natter 
and that anything exclusively gay that can’t be categorized as anything else is only worth one thread. But don’t add oil to the fire. You are dealing with a bunch of flamers here. You will lose.
It wasn’t me who first called it natter:
By meaningful natter I mean serious stuff things like (for example) “What are you experiences on coming out ?” and this which deserve their own thread. I have said many times it deserves more than one thread, and more than one conversation at once. I opened this thread because I closed the other one and I thought you might want a replacement.
It is 100% apparent that you and Maoman think our chatter is meaningless natter and that anything exclusively gay that can’t be categorized as anything else is only worth one thread.[/quote]
Yo, leave me out of this - I never said anything like “meaningless natter” (and I have a sneaking suspicion BFM was being sarcastic).
And who says gay issues are confined to one thread exclusively? There is at least one other thread in the Human Rights forum about gay marriage. Don’t be paranoid. :?
Communication is the biggest problem for me and my current boyfriend (and previous boyfriends) too … part of the “problem” is that I don’t like the so-called “potato queens” (the kind of guys who hang out at places like Fresh and the Source and only want to date foreigners) … so the guys that I have dated over the past 2 1/2 years have had no experience dating foreigners and speak very little to no English … my experience is that when a problem arises, they tend to just shut themselves off and dont want to discuss it and/or don’t know how to express their feelings. I, however, am the type of person who likes to talk about everything and am very direct. I’ve learned that the best way is to try to find a happy medium … learn about your partner’s way of expressing feelings, learn how to “read” him/her (this is necessary regardless of different cultural backgrounds), and at the same time slowly try to show them how you communicate/express feelings. It takes time, practice, and lots and lots of patience.
As to the other question … wanting to be boyfriends “the morning after,” I don’t think there is much of a delineation between “just dating” and “boyfriends” here … so if you’re not willing to say precisely what it is you’re looking for beforehand, or if the guy seems to want more than you do, then I suggest keeping it in your pants if you don’t want him to get hurt. They’re probably not going to understand the idea of “just dating” or a “casual relationship.” If you want to “just date” and not be boyfriends, perhaps consider saving sex until you’re sure what you want, because unless they’re just looking for a one-night stand, then “boyfriends” is what they’re going to expect if you sleep together. From my experience, there isn’t much of a gray area.
LBT…very insightful. Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately a major part of my communications problem is the fact that I don’t speak Chinese and this coupled with my ‘inexperience’ with ‘potato queens’ is a recipe for disaster. I too like to talk about things (but maybe not directly enough). I also have figured out that speaking a certain level of English is not the same as understanding English.
I wish I had known about the lack of delineation between ‘just dating’ and ‘boyfriends’ BEFORE hand. It would have saved them (and yes, me too) a lot of grief. Of course, that little complication really wasn’t anything compared to the one that wanted to be my boyfriend and MOVE into my apartment the next morning…I might could have handled the boyfriend-dating thing but not the move in…
Of course, you have a very valid point about the club boys…my experience has been the element of trust is missing because they are expecting to get ‘dumped’ at anytime…so there isn’t much of a commitment there. I know how they feel too since the last guy I dated was here on a working visa…and he just dumped me/vanished over a weekend…not a good feeling.
But that’s just with me.
Thanks again for the helpful insight.
It is 100% apparent that you and Maoman think our chatter is meaningless natter and that anything exclusively gay that can’t be categorized as anything else is only worth one thread. But don’t add oil to the fire. You are dealing with a bunch of flamers here. You will lose. :P[/quote]
I almost took offense at this too. But, the more I looked at it and thought about it the more I realized that the Big F was not making a slur against gay people or gay issues.
If you read it closer, you do see that he refers to our “natter” as both meaningless – “continue your meaningless natter here” – and meaningful – “Meaningful natter probably deserves its own thread.” The problem is he referred to the meaningless natter as your meaningless natter. While for the meaningful stuff he did not use the “your” as a qualifier. Therefore, it could be assumed that he was saying gay natter is meaningless and other natter is meaningful.
Tis not the case, dear sisters… at least, I don’t believe so. I think he’s trying to say that the Pink Martini Hottub can be for the trivial/less serious (which is probably a better way to refer to it, rather than meaningless) discussion. While for more serious discussions a new thread should be started.
I’ve never had the problem of them wanting to move in with me right away … usually it’s me who would like them to move in at some point but they can’t because they live at home and mommy and daddy wouldn’t let them. My current boyfriend’s parents don’t try to control him at all, and he usually spends about 4-5 nights a week with me … but I’ve dated guys in their early 20’s before whose parents wouldn’t let them spend the night away from home. 
I wish I had known about the lack of delineation between ‘just dating’ and ‘boyfriends’ BEFORE hand. It would have saved them (and yes, me too) a lot of grief. Of course, that little complication really wasn’t anything compared to the one that wanted to be my boyfriend and MOVE into my apartment the next morning…I might could have handled the boyfriend-dating thing but not the move in…
I almost took offense at this too. But, the more I looked at it and thought about it the more I realized that the Big F was not making a slur against gay people or gay issues.[/quote]
I don’t think BFM was making a slur, his comment was just mildly annoying.
What you (and everyone else) missed is the argument that I had with Maoman about a gay forum that immediately preceded BFM’s comments. Read my exchange with Maoman here: A Gay/LGBT Forum You will know why I was annoyed by the “meaningless natter comment”. If you take a closer look, there was very little “meaningless natter” that BFM could possibly have been suggesting we continue here.
I don’t think the conversation about boyfriends is meaningless, I don’t think the conversation about a gay forum is meaningless, and it was already made clear that the only possibly meaningless conversation about “Going” be placed in restaurants/pubs etc. I’m all for meaningless natter, gay or otherwise, and of course the gay stuff should be dumped in the hot tub I apologize BFM if you thought my reaction was over the top… the flamer comment was supposed to make you laugh. 
That said, I was unhappy to see that my exchange with Maoman was buried where no one else would be likely to come across it. While it’s nice that we are being encouraged to post lots of gay topics wherever we want, it is a bit disconcerting that they are harder and harder to find (that was one of the few positives of having everything in one thread, and would be one of the positives of us having a gay-related forum.)
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean any disrespect or to slur anyone, I was just teasing. I should have used some smileys up there. I don’t hold anything against anybody here (even if you ask nicely ). I meant ‘meaningless’ relatively… compared to more ‘meaningful’ stuff that deserves it’s own thread, I was hoping you would make new threads on new topics, instead of sticking it all in one thread, that’s how conversations change I suppose…
Can we kiss and make up ? :flowers: well, actually just make up will do
So what if he was?
Jez, getting your pink knickers in a twist over the word ‘natter’? Good God, toughen up.
Looks like wolf has gotten his own pink knickers in more of a twist than the rest of us put together. For someone who gets riled up so easily I’m surprised you have suddenly taken back your vote for a gay forum. That’s very grown up of you. You should try boxers, it will lower the temperature down there.
BFM: There’s no hard feelings, right? I’m not upset, and I’m sure as a moderator you are probably not very upset yourself. So yes, let’s kiss and make out. Um. Up. Yeah. That.
Then start your own gay forum somewhere … there’s plenty of software out there to do it. No one is being oppressed here, and personally I didn’t think Maoman’s or BFM’s comments were insulting or offensive. I think you’d be pressed to find two other straight guys who are so gay-friendly out there. I think the way things are is just fine … the current forums are inclusive enough to cover almost any “gay” topic I can think of, and personally I’ve had no problems finding and reading topics of interest. If you’re only interested in reading gay-related stuff and the other posts on Forumosa are of no interest to you, then like I said, go start your own forum … it’s not that difficult.
Back to the issue of communication … the first time I was in a serious relationship with a Taiwanese guy, I was really surprised at all of the cultural differences that were present in our relationship … the more I dated, though, the more I realized that most of the things that bothered me were considered “normal” for here … such as not directly dealing with relationship problems, expressing of emotions/feelings, the specific “roles” to be played in a relationship (there is a big delineation in many relationships between “Gege” and “Didi”), etc. One of the things that was difficult for me was that I like to use words to express my feelings … things like saying “I love you” or talking about how happy or unhappy I am with the relationship, etc. Taiwanese, on the other hand, aren’t in the habit of saying things like “I love you” or “I’m really happy we’re together” or whatever. Kids don’t even say those things to their parents. That doesn’t mean, however, that they don’t love you … they just express it in different ways. From my own little experience, I’ve found that they prefer using other ways to express their feelings … you just have to learn what those things are. My current boyfriend, for example, doesn’t say “I love you” as often as I’m used to … however, I can tell by the way he cuddles with me or smiles at me when he comes over to see me, or just calls for no reason to ask what I’m doing that he really does care. You just have to learn what your partner’s ways of showing affection/love are … I think that’s probably true in any relationship. Then, as you go through the process of a relationship, gradually explain (and show) them how you’re used to expressing feelings, and you’ll find that they will try very hard to please you (that is if they really do care about you). My boyfriend is learning, although it’s a slow process. I still think that hardest thing, though, is dealing with relationship problems … every guy I’ve dated has always avoided talking directly about problems that arise and then they just fester and fester until they get really angry … they’re not used to sitting down and talking about something that’s bothering them, or hearing from you that you’re upset about something. I think that’s the most difficult thing to overcome.
Never once did I say that. If I was interested in a gay only forum then I would have done that already.
It’s called convenience. If there is interest (as there appears to be) then it makes sense to do it. There is a women’s forum, isn’t there? And one for Spanish speaking people? I also never
Never said that either. Did you actually read what I wrote?
So what if he was?
Jez, getting your pink knickers in a twist over the word ‘natter’? Good God, toughen up. [/quote]
First of all… my knickers are not pink. Blue, black, grey and white, yes… but, never pink. 
Except for that one time I accidently put a new red shirt in with my underwear… 
But, I digress.
Second… I wasn’t getting my knickers or any other of my garments in a twist over the word “natter.” Perhaps you should read my comments again. Hmmmm!!! I was referring to the use of the word “meaningless.”
Finally… I wasn’t even offended!!! I said, I almost got offended by it. The “so-what?” being that he seemed to be indicating – at first, pink-ish, blush – that gay natter = meaningless natter. But, I realized he wasn’t… as I indicated.
I was actually defending him. Which, from what Scooter said, was apparently unnecessary. So, maybe you should just lighten up.
