mmmmm-mmmmm-mmmmm-mmmmm!
“when i leave this
ugly shithole, i’m going to write novels
that make updike, ondaatje and atwood
look like a pile of sawn logs… phhhhttt!”
Tee hee! You’ll need a HELL of a lot of practice, then, if your posts are anything to go by.
yes, I’m a rusty nail, don’t drink me, bubba…
forgive me… But I have been here too long
and am afraid of forgetting… But back on
topic… Ask just one question: why the
Chinese/Taiwanese are apt to be SO mean?
Well, the answer lies in America, my friends:
Walmart…
I spend a lot of time wondering how many people
in this world actually think, ever.
!!!
poposfried…
Hey folks:
ckvw: Although Regan has just been here on extended visits, I agree that we need to be ourselves. My first few years here, I would get pissed off to an excessive degree when I was “instructed” to do something that I didn’t feel like doing. This is truly a cultural difference, a way to show you care about someone (in some cases authentic concern, in others mechanical reactions to the circumstances, and in some the expected display of hospitality of the host or hostess) and yes, we can find the same displays in western culture (mother figures, etc). I find that a simple “Thank you, I’m full” or “Thank you, I feel fine” works great.
Although I live in this culture, I will never be Taiwanese, and there is no way I can be. I am happy to be who I am, and find that people like me that way. If they don’t, that is not my problem. I have never gotten a negative reaction from a person for not putting on my coat.
I think that this is really a sort of culture shock. We are not used to having people we don’t know try to tell us what is best for us, and this irritation we feel is perhaps intensified by being in unfamiliar surroundings where we are not sure how our reactions will be taken. That is frustrating!!!
There is harmony in chaos.
Hey Rian:
Doesn’t it SUCK traveling in Taiwan.
The two-way radio is a blast. I feel like I am on a recon mission when they break those out.
Being on a tour bus (the driver’s chin covered with betel nut juice) going up the side of a steep mountain, stopping and having to back down hundreds of feet to let another tour bus pass, is totally breathtaking!
If the map thing bothers you, you can plan and lead the next trip!!! Let me know how it goes bro!
Rascal: I have to agree that we cannot change an entire culture. Why try, we are not crusaders of westernization.
Why try to change a fine wine of 50 years; appreciate it for what qualities it has developed.
Why try to change a 5000 (?) year old culture. Appreciate it.
It has been pointed out that the Taiwanese are map deficient.
Not anymore since I convinced my pals to even put the code numbers
locations readable on TaiPower poles and boxes into their atlas, as
mentioned on http://jidanni.org/geo/
If you know the names of anymore military bases tell them and they’ll
include them too.
Help end the boring monopoly of the Taiwan map biz by the Dayu company
and all its aliases, e.g. Shanru.
Wait being a firm believer in http://www.fsf.org philosophy, you can
get all the details about the pole codes from my website without
shelling out $2700NT total for the north and south Taiwan atlases
which though paperback, you might find kind of bulky, plus they aren’t
in English [but you might tell my pals at sunriver.com.tw to add Hanyu
Pinyin, even if the chump government doesn’t want it.]
Jidanni,
That is SO funny. I didn’t know you were so talented. Until now I just thought you were some eccentric. Well, I still do but with a new respect.
By the way, I couldn’t find the 中國時報 article 「老外遊台灣 看電桿辨方位」。 Is it available online, or can you scan it and put it up on your website?
I’m sorry that I didn’t bother to scan in the zhongguoshibao article
as the reporters usually just copy other reporters and
http://jidanni.org/geo/taipower/images/19980928minzhong.jpg
has a better headline anyway [it says I’m legendary. Legendary as in
“I’m legendary and Hartzell is not. Odd.” You see, it
all came clear one day as I was sitting in my mountain top retreat. I
noticed the birds, then the bees, then the numbers on the electric
poles. Well that was 5 years ago, and as those in the legend business
know… well, never mind.
Buy the atlas and in it is the full color picture of me in
sunglasses just like the theme of my website. Worth the NT$2780
alone… as you get both north and south editions. This way you can
open up the north edition to P. 120 and look at the picture with your
left eyeball, and it appears again on P. 119 of the south edition,
meant for your other eyeball! Trust me, you will not need anymore
mind altering substances.
Plus you can go to the offices of www.sunriver.com.tw in Xizhi, and
criticize the boss, “water water everywhere, why so much water left
over on the seaside plates?” He will take it all in and look
sad… remember to tell him “still a great atlas, no need to commit
suicide or anything.”
P.S. even though the atlas is in Chinese, the pole codes aren’t, so,
in theory, one still can navigate “participating areas” of Taiwan
(areas with newer pole plates) this way without being a Chinese whiz.
Speaking of “whiz”, you might want to stay away from bars where the police are likely to come and ask for a sample of yours.
Speaking as a Chinese-Canadian, I think that a lot of what everyone is talking about is just misunderstood culture/custom.
Chinese people are very family oriented. It is not strange in China/Taiwan to see grown adults living with their parents. The idea of the Chinese being “family oriented” will help you understand “why?” to a lot of the customs, that you may think are annoying.
The reason why the Chinese are so forceful in feeding guests is that it’s their way of showing hosiptiality. Back in the old days, food was not always a daily occurance so it was important to eat a lot when food was available. Thus, food is valued, when food is offered to you it shows that the person really cares and has concern for you and your health. If you don’t want all the food they provide for you, (before eating) put the food back into the serving plate or offer it to someone else you care for. Just like the when a Chinese person says your child is fat, that’s a commpliment meaning you take good care of your child…
Ok, well the person that is telling you to wear a coat is not your mother, it is a common gesture. It’s almost like wishing someone fairwell, it shows that their thinking about your well being.
That whole price thing is definitely a chinese custom. It reminds you to value your money. Your not suppose to take that to heart. Just play along.
The reason why the Taiwanese will always say, “that’s the way we do it,” is mainly to save face. What may seem as a suggestion, sounds to them as under-minding. Saving face is a big thing amongst the Chinese.
If you find these customs annoying I would hate for you to have chinese aunts and grandmothers in your family.
Can’t believe I didn’t get in on this one earlier.
Culture shock doesn’t necessarily “go away” after one has been living in another culture for a long period of time.
In fact, one may go through successive stages of acculturation and become almost schizophrenic where “social encounters become inherently threatening and defense mechanisms are employed to reduce the trauma.” (Mark Clarke, 1976)
The Stages
- Euphoria, due to newness of surroundings.
- Culture shock emerges when the intrusion of more cultural difference enter their feelings of self and security.
- “Anomie” begins in the early part of this stage when the individual begins to lose some of their ties to their own culture and a feeling of homelessness sets in . One is neither bound to their native culture nor adapted to the second culture. Gradual recovery and cultural stress make some problems go away, whilst others continue. Slowly, progress is made and differences accepted.
- Full recovery, assimilation and adaption may occur where one has mastered the language of the culture in which they’re living.
Sadly, I’d have to say I’ve been stuck in Stage 3 for a long, long time, the same as many other foreigners I know here.
The folks I know who have actually moved on to Stage 4 ARE fluent in spoken and written Mandarin and/or Taiwanese, have married locals and started families here with no intention of leaving Taiwan to return to their native cultures.
Those that DO return at late Stage 3 or 4 may find a “reverse culture shock” back home even more daunting, and ultimately return to Taiwan ever-so adapted to being here!
As for politeness in my late Stage 3 analysis: the Taiwanese are excessively polite in some ways, and excessively rude in others. The thing that I cannot adapt to after being here so long is the fact that crowds create chaos and disorder, complete disregard of others, and a ‘me first’ attitude. In a society which has long been densely populated, why have they become so oblivious to their surroundings? Why do umbrellas get opened in your face? Why do people (purposely it seems) block your way on pavements? Why do many drivers act like teenage boys and cut each other off so they can get a few metres ahead? Why did a densely crowded society adapt this way? Why do people drill things relentlessly even on weekends and why is noise pollution such a problem for foreigners in this culture, but not for locals? Why is Japan so orderly in comparison when they share so many similarities in other ways?
Why can’t I get used to these things and why do they still annoy me after so long?
Why, when I visit my home, do I find that aspects of my native culture now annoy me even more than those things I mentioned above?
I think after awhile we get trapped somewhere between cultures. Maybe we become bi-cultural.
quote:
3. "Anomie" begins in the early part of this stage when the individual begins to lose some of their ties to their own culture and a feeling of homelessness sets in . One is neither bound to their native culture nor adapted to the second culture. Gradual recovery and cultural stress make some problems go away, whilst others continue. Slowly, progress is made and differences accepted. 4. Full recovery, assimilation and adaption may occur where one has mastered the language of the culture in which they're living
I remember reading a similar breakdown, but it also had an alternative stage 4 which was ‘rejection’. Some foreigners give up or decide they don’t want to or can’t adjust to the culture. They try and isolate themselves from it, live in a ‘foreigner ghetto’, have only opther expatriates as friends etc etc. There’s alos a stage 5 (or something) of reverse culture shock when you go back to your home country.
Bri
My first 5 years here I made it to Stage 3. By the time I left, I was an utter basket case (Poagao will be the first to testify to that.) When I got back to the states, (for the first time in that entire 5 years), I suffered from reverse culture shock, which took me a year to pull out of – that was one of the hardest experiences I have ever had, let me tell you. Home style food was great, but it was like experiencing it for the first time; music that I never even heard of played on the radio, shit that doesn’t make it over here in any form. My table manners had turned to shit while I had lived here, so much so that my own family was embarassed eating with me in public. I had become too blunt and forward about certain topics. I retained a lot the aggressiveness I had built up while living here as a coping mechanism. In short, reverse culture shock was hell. It wasn’t until my second year back I began to normalize. After 3 years away, I’m back in Taiwan and while certain things still frustrate me (traffic), I’m finding it a helluva lot easier to take in stride. Nothing is unexpected. Nothing feels out of place. Taiwan is as I remember it, but without that patina of hate and strangeness that was draped over my mind the first time here. Things the FOBs flip out about, I take with a grain of salt. Mei ban fa. I’m not saying I’m out of Stage 3, really, cuz I don’t know. But I do know what Stage 3 felt like all too well.
FB
I think what I’m finding the hardest (having been here almost two years) is that I no longer fit into either culture: Taiwanese or Canadian. The first time going home after a year was a key example; I was having a lot of “hate Taiwan” days, and anticipating everything about home: the food, the cold, my bed, my cat, my friends, etc. None were as fabulous as my memories had made them out to be, which was hugely disappointing. To make matters worse, my friends would ask generalised questions like, “What’s Taiwan LIKE?” and I’d try to answer at which point they’d tune out or interrupt. GRRRRR…
And then when I got back to Taiwan, I’d forgotten all of the smells, food, etc and had to re-adjust again. Including friends hollering at me when I had a cold and wasn’t drinking my HOT WATER. It was +37 outside for heaven’s sake! Now I’m just bitter and disillusioned about both places. I know, I’ll move to PengHu!!!
quote[quote] "What's Taiwan LIKE?" and I'd try to answer at which point they'd tune out or interrupt. GRRRRR... [/quote]Hey, I’ve noticed that too. Peopel just seem totally uninterested (with a few exceptions).
Bri
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzball: My first 5 years here I made it to Stage 3. By the time I left, I was an utter basket case (Poagao will be the first to testify to that.)
…and my evil plan would have worked, too, if it hadn’t been for those meddling psychiatrists!
its hard to say who’d win the US vs. Taiwan battle once you strip away the circumstance and get down to simple kindness and all that. my personal view is that the US would probably win on ‘civility’ but Taiwan might come through for ‘politeness’ itself. on the other hand i think this has to do with my own penchant for civil society over polite customs that sometimes seem only cosmetic, and i’m no Mr. Manners anyways. besides i come from Texas, traditionally the friendliest place on Earth and a far cry from those supercilious Yanks and their ‘time is money’ city lives. i think among Taiwanese it has a lot to do with enviroment as anywhere. city vs. country and such. also, Taiwanese seem to be awfully polite with family and those close to them, even more so than some of my aunts and uncles, but quite unconcerned with helping someone who falls down on the street and such. i find this a difficult call.
also, US isn’t famous for its politeness because we export Hollywood, bombs, and business culture while places like Texas and Iowa sit right where they’ve always been.
“Please-- a little less love and a little more common decency” - Kurt Vonnegut
Taiwanese are more polite than the Americans full stop. Yet some people from other nationalities, New Zealand and Australia are two, well they are more polite than the Taiwanese. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but I’ve met enough wankers to be judgemental. To the Americans who get angry over this post, relax, I mightn’t of met you yet
What’s the definition of polite? Are actual common courtesies being discussed, or just the ‘I’ll smile and tell you I’ll seriously consider your proposal and keep you in the dark while I laugh at you behind your back and never give it a second thought…’ type of ‘politeness’?
Sorry, best example I could think of off the top of my head, but I think we all know the difference; actual politeness and just surface-level, ‘fake’ gestures.