Political philosophy argument: On Burqa bans

Now that the debate’s well played out… Did you read the article in the OP?

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My favorite contemporary philosopher takes on the arguments underpinning burqa bans.

I edited the argument for length, and it was still too long, so I hid supporting arguments on various points in spoiler quotes for your convenience.

[quote=“NYT/ Martha Nussbaum: Veiled Threats?”]As it turns out, a long philosophical and legal tradition has reflected about similar matters.
[…]
[color=#0000FF]…the framers of the United States Constitution concluded that protecting equal rights of conscience requires “free exercise” for all on a basis of equality. [/color] What does that really mean, and what limits might reasonably be placed upon religious activities in a pluralistic society? The philosophical architects of our legal tradition could easily see that when peace and safety are at stake, or the equal rights of others, some reasonable limits might be imposed on what people do in the name of religion. [color=#0000FF]But they grasped after a deeper and more principled rationale for these limits and protections.[/color]

Here the philosophical tradition splits. One strand, associated with another 17-century English philosopher, John Locke, holds that protecting equal liberty of conscience requires only two things: laws that do not penalize religious belief, and laws that are non-discriminatory about practices, applying the same laws to all in matters touching on religious activities. An example of a discriminatory law, said Locke, would be one making it illegal to speak Latin in a Church, but not restricting the use of Latin in schools. Obviously, the point of such a law would be to persecute Roman Catholics. But if a law is not persecutory in this way, it may stand, even though it may incidentally impose burdens on some religious activities more than on others. If people find that their conscience will not permit them to obey a certain law (regarding military service, say, or work days), they had better follow their conscience, says Locke, but they will have to pay the legal penalty.
[…]
Another tradition, associated with Roger Williams, the founder of the colony of Rhode Island and the author of copious writings on religious freedom, holds that protection for conscience must be stronger than this. This tradition reasons that laws in a democracy are always made by majorities and will naturally embody majority ideas of convenience. Even if such laws are not persecutory in intent, they may turn out to be very unfair to minorities. In cases in which such laws burden liberty of conscience ─ for example by requiring people to testify in court on their holy day, or to perform military service that their religion forbids, or to abstain from the use of a drug required in their sacred ceremony ─ this tradition held that a special exemption, called an “accommodation,” should be given to the minority believer.

[color=#0000FF]On the whole, the accommodationist position has been dominant in U. S. law and public culture ─ ever since George Washington wrote a famous letter to the Quakers explaining that he would not require them to serve in the military because the “conscientious scruples of all men” deserve the greatest “delicacy and tenderness.” [/color]For a time, modern constitutional law in the U. S. applied an accommodationist standard, holding that government may not impose a “substantial burden” on a person’s “free exercise of religion” without a “compelling state interest” (of which peace and safety are obvious examples, though not the only ones).
[…]I believe that [color=#0000FF]the accommodationist principle is more adequate than Locke’s principle, because it reaches subtle forms of discrimination that are ubiquitous in majoritarian democratic life.[/color] It has its problems, however. One (emphasized by Justice Scalia, when he turned our constitutional jurisprudence toward the Lockean standard in 1990) is that it is difficult for judges to administer. Creating exemptions to general laws on a case by case basis struck Scalia as too chaotic, and beyond the competence of the judiciary. The other problem is that the accommodationist position has typically favored religion and disfavored other reasons people may have for seeking an exemption to general laws.
[…]

[color=#0000FF]Five arguments are commonly made in favor of proposed bans.[/color] Let’s see whether they treat all citizens with equal respect. First, it is argued that [color=#0000FF]security[/color] requires people to show their faces when appearing in public places. A second, closely related, argument says that the kind of [color=#0000FF]transparency and reciprocity[/color] proper to relations between citizens is impeded by covering part of the face.

What is wrong with both of these arguments is that they are applied inconsistently.[…] What inspires fear and mistrust in Europe, clearly, is not covering per se, but Muslim covering.
[…]
A third argument, very prominent today, is that the burqa is a [color=#0000FF]symbol of male domination[/color] that symbolizes the objectification of women (that they are being seen as mere objects). […]The first thing we should say about this argument is that the people who make it typically don’t know much about Islam and would have a hard time saying what symbolizes what in that religion. But the more glaring flaw in the argument is that society is suffused with symbols of male supremacy that treat women as objects. Sex magazines, nude photos, tight jeans — all of these products, arguably, treat women as objects, as do so many aspects of our media culture. And what about the “degrading prison” of plastic surgery? Every time I undress in the locker room of my gym, I see women bearing the scars of liposuction, tummy tucks, breast implants. Isn’t much of this done in order to conform to a male norm of female beauty that casts women as sex objects? Proponents of the burqa ban do not propose to ban all these objectifying practices. Indeed, they often participate in them. And banning all such practices on a basis of equality would be an intolerable invasion of liberty. Once again, then, [color=#0000FF]the opponents of the burqa are utterly inconsistent, betraying a fear of the different that is discriminatory and unworthy of a liberal democracy. The way to deal with sexism, in this case as in all, is by persuasion and example, not by removing liberty.[/color]
[…]
A fourth argument holds that women wear the burqa only because they are [color=#0000FF]coerced[/color]. This is a rather implausible argument to make across the board, and it is typically made by people who have no idea what the circumstances of this or that individual woman are. [spoiler]We should reply that of course all forms of violence and physical coercion in the home are illegal already, and laws against domestic violence and abuse should be enforced much more zealously than they are. Do the arguers really believe that domestic violence is a peculiarly Muslim problem? If they do, they are dead wrong. […] There is no evidence that Muslim families have a disproportionate amount of such violence. Indeed, given the strong association between domestic violence and the abuse of alcohol, it seems at least plausible that observant Muslim families will turn out to have less of it.

Suppose there were evidence that the burqa was strongly associated, statistically, with violence against women. Could government could legitimately ban it on those grounds? The U. S. Supreme Court has held that nude dancing may be banned on account of its contingent association with crime, including crimes against women, but it is not clear that this holding was correct. […] What is most important, however, is that anyone proposing to ban the burqa must consider it together with these other cases, weigh the evidence, and take the consequences for their own cherished hobbies.
[…][/spoiler]
Finally, I’ve heard the argument that the burqa is per se [color=#0000FF]unhealthy, because it is hot and uncomfortable[/color]. (Not surprisingly, this argument is made in Spain.) This is perhaps the silliest of the arguments. […] But more pointedly, would the arguer really seek to ban all uncomfortable and possibly unhealthy female clothing? Wouldn’t we have to begin with high heels, delicious as they are? But no, high heels are associated with majority norms (and are a major Spanish export), so they draw no ire.

[color=#0000FF]All five arguments are discriminatory. We don’t even need to reach the delicate issue of religiously grounded accommodation to see that they are utterly unacceptable in a society committed to equal liberty. Equal respect for conscience requires us to reject them.[/color][/quote]

I don’t see them as being applied inconsistently. Any person with money, property, and a Whiggish stake in society is always going to be mistrustful of people that cover their faces. A banker manager is going to distrust someone wearing a full face toque no matter whether the bank robber is an Anglican, a Roman Catholic, a Jain, or a Muslim. Likewise an RCMP officer or city police officer is going to be distrustful of a protestor wearing a similar Balaclava. I don’t think they have a problem with Hijabs as they don’t cover the entire face. But Burkhas? Fair game. They cover the entire body and anyone monitoring a crowd would be crazy to ignore someone wearing such a medieval costume. In this case, when security is at stake, I have no problems with some form of a ban.

The difference is women choose to pose naked, or get plastic surgery, or wear 'Daisy Duke" jeans. They might have shallow values, addictions to feed, and a minority of women may face repurcussions for their choices ( being called a slut by some sexually frustrated males or receive unwanted attention from time to time), but they made the choice. In some Muslim countries, women are forced to wear this outift in 40 degree heat and if they don’t will have some form of religious police after them or family members coming after them calling them 'loose". Women in Indonesia have faced threats of being stoned to death for posing in Playboy. Do I think we should ban the burkha though? When large crowds of people are gathered and there are security concerns–sure. For school or uncrowded areas–let them wear it. Let them wear it as a reminder to those in the West that some societies enslave their females and some Western academic feminists and apologists will rationalize this because they hate the West so much.

Again, most professional and office women these days do not wear high heels. We don’t live in the Mad Men culture of the 1950s anymore where it is expected. In fact, I would characterize it these days as an attention-grabbing anomoly. In the end, it’s the decision of the woman who chooses to wear or not to wear them. But most women these days go for casual chic in their attire and don’t wear outfits that cause them great pain. Again, in the Middle East, women often don’t have that choice. They have to wear burkhas for reasons of modesty. In Africa, they are forced to have their clit chopped up because of ritual expectations. If the don’t, they can get into all sorts of legal probelms or be attacked by family members. Comparing bunions to a lifetime of a loss of sexual feeling or possible heat stroke is hillarious. Again, I don’t think the burkha should necessarily be banned in temperate climates as I think allowing free speech and choice will show the moderate majority what a joke/how absurd the minority custom is. In hot climates? Hell yeah, it’s torture as far as I’m concerned. People can get in shit for leaving their dog locked in a hot car during a heatwave, shouldn’t we provide some sort of punishment for idiotic Muslim husbands that do the same things to their wives by making them wear such ridiculous outfits in hot weather? Both are being treated like second-rate dogs IMHO.

As far as I know, the covering of the face is not in fact stated as a requirement in the Koran anywhere and many will point out its use predates the Koran itself. The Koran does say both women and men should dress modestly, and some branches of Islam interpret that to include the covering of the face, but many dont.

But we are talking about this in the context of cultures that have developed their own norms. Its not normal for countries to permit polygyny, which can be practiced in Islam, I dont think anyone here would argue countries should be sensitive to Islams practices regarding polygyny and revise their laws.

The source provided named a number of reasons for arguing against the full Burqa ban and I may have missed it, but the point of this practice being so far outside the norm of the society they live in, that it makes people very uncomfortable, I didn’t see stated.

If I dressed as an orthodox jewish person, what do suppose the reaction would be in many Islamic states, or if I dressed as a transvestite or was seen swigging a bottle of rum. These are some of the states that have the lowest tolerance towards any deviation from what they see as the norm, and yet show no understanding of meeting what western countries feel is a minimum level of conforming to normal behavior in their society.

[quote=“Mick”] But we are talking about this in the context of cultures that have developed their own norms. Its not normal for countries to permit polygyny, which can be practiced in Islam, I don’t think anyone here would argue countries should be sensitive to Islams practices regarding polygyny and revise their laws.[/quote]The question there would be whether or not substantial harm is done. There’s a far better case for that regarding plural marriage than there is for fashion crimes.

[quote=“Mick”]The source provided named a number of reasons for arguing against the full Burqa ban and I may have missed it, but the point of this practice being so far outside the norm of the society they live in, that it makes people very uncomfortable, I didn’t see stated. [/quote]Discomfort fails to meet the test-- typically harm or serious threat–that makes state intervention permissible. In various jurisdictions, a majority of people are very uncomfortable with inter-racial marriage, homosexual relationships, or transvestitism. But discomfort alone isn’t sufficient to excuse state intervention. (A point still being made regarding same-sex marriage).

[quote=“Mick”] If I dressed as an orthodox jewish person, what do suppose the reaction would be in many Islamic states, or if I dressed as a transvestite or was seen swigging a bottle of rum. These are some of the states that have the lowest tolerance towards any deviation from what they see as the norm, and yet show no understanding of meeting what western countries feel is a minimum level of conforming to normal behavior in their society.[/quote]Conformation to which sector of those Western societies? Policies mandating assimilation haven’t proven themselves in anyway successful, whether the issue is religion (N. Ireland), language (Quebec), culture (aboriginals), or political union (Spain). Accommodation and gradual convergence on the other hand has a very good track record.

Besides which, the reciprocity argument isn’t one of tit-for-tat with other societies, but of tolerance within our own. That has proven itself a far superior model, and the success of that model is the ultimate winning argument.

We in India, are just okay with the Burqa thingy although the majority of our population doesn’t wear it!! Honestly, of all things, Burqa should way down on the list of ‘women’s liberty issues’. It really does not matter…I have seen women with burqas enjoying a lot more freedom than we give them credit for (they are removable, you know)!

What matters is if those burqa clad women, can vote, have rights to medical facilities, have their day in court etc. What they choose to wear or have to is really no biggie.

But I am not arguing from a ‘womens liberty issues’ perspective. But just take a moment to pause on that thought for a moment, there was a case in Italy where a woman was fined for wearing a Burka to the post office. Woman fined in Italy for wearing a Burka to post office

This is what the husband was quoted as saying.

Absolutely disgusting.

In the school I went to in the UK for example, we had people of all races and generally all got on without a problem (except for some cases between Jewish and Muslim students), but I am fairly certain if someone came in with a full face covering Burka, it would have caused a great deal of disruption. Perhaps in India, its much more normal and people are not going to cause a big fuss over it.

Many Muslims in Europe and the US would agree, in fact I was reading of one woman in the US who chose to go this route after 911 and the strongest reaction she got was from the Muslim community itself who banned her from the Mosques.

Does this count? Two burqa-clad robbers hold up post office near Paris
Or this? The ‘Burka Bandit’ strikes again

Has anybody noticed how many of the arguments against burqas have also been made by nudists, against clothes in general?

Clothes perpetuate pernicious social divisions and often, reflect a shame-based mentality and regressive gender roles. Granted, trousers are less useful than a burqa for concealing one’s identity, but they too pose a security risk.

Does this count? Two burqa-clad robbers hold up post office near Paris
Or this? The ‘Burka Bandit’ strikes again[/quote]
Does this, or this?

Is this a reason to ban Halloween?

The fact that something can be abused isn’t sufficient. The probability that it will be, or dire consequences if it is… that comes much nearer the point.

And yeah, that husband’s attitude is disgusting. There are a lot of disgusting attitudes around, in various guises.

If communities apply non-threatening, non-coersive pressure to persuade members to give up specific practices, that’s a very different kettle of fish from state sanctions.

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]Has anybody noticed how many of the arguments against burqas have also been made by nudists, against clothes in general?
[/quote]

I’m not sure how you reach that conclusion, many of those in favour of the ban are prominent Muslims. e.g. In defense of the burqa ban

I could equally say, those who oppose the ban have never witnessed first hand the real issues of the Muslims integrating into western society. While doing my degree in the 90’s I was just around the corner from the North London Central Mosque , I had many friends from Sudan, Iran and other Islamic nations who worshiped there, classmates and people who had me round their house and they round mine.

The point being, I am not arguing from a purely abstract position, I attended many meetings held by Islamic groups aimed at better understanding each others culture. The vast majority are good decent and want to be a part of western society. But, there are some who absolutely despise everything about our culture, characterize all western women as whores, see no need to adjust behavior to a culture that disgusts them, critical of everything and think we are infidels not to behave the way they do.

For these people, those who feel justified in threatening anyone who criticizes their belief or draws a picture of a prophet (insulting I agree, but freedom of speech is our right too), I dont think it is right the society should bend and adjust to a full face burka. Jaboney used Halloween masks as an example, but if you walked into a bank, a government building, a place of work, a school, you would be asked to remove it.

To quote from the article above.

No, but certain studies do see it as a growing problem amongst immigrant communities from the Middle East and Asia and that it differs significantly from Western abuse.

fcpp.org/publication.php/3351

If this were about the principles of security and fighting domestic abuse rather than a thinly veiled pogrom all full-face coverings in public would be banned equally (eg. motorcycle helmets, holiday masks) and husbands alone would be arrested rather than fining burqa-wearing women too.

It does rather smack of the ‘target the hookers, not the Johns’ approach.

If the presumptions of the ban the burqa brigade are correct it’s more like fining a woman for appearing in public with a black eye and swollen face.

Even in Malaysia the face veil is banned in places, as it is in some other parts of the Muslim world, yet still more Muslim states discourage its use and call it a secular form of dress which has no place in its society. Muslims are banned from wearing it during the holiest of pilgrimages the Hajj.

When the issue is so hotly debated even in the Muslim world, to pretend there are no valid issues raised by the wearing of a Niqab in a Western society is disingenuous.

It just looks creepy. Europeans don’t like people who hide their faces. It’s impolite to even wear hats and sunglasses indoors or when talking to people.

Freedom to all to wear what they like! Um, but can I wear a bikini in Iran (or any burqua-guo)? No. And it would be disrespectful to Iranian culture were I to try it (um, ok, so it’d be pretty disrespectful in any country to get my Milefo belly out in public, but …). But feeeeelll freeeeeee to come to my country and but a black sheet over your head and ignore my culture. Because we tolerate anything, in this post-colonial free-for-all. It’s your humin rite!

[quote=“Mick”]Even in Malaysia the face veil is banned in places, as it is in some other parts of the Muslim world, yet still more Muslim states discourage its use and call it a secular form of dress which has no place in its society. Muslims are banned from wearing it during the holiest of pilgrimages the Hajj.

When the issue is so hotly debated even in the Muslim world, to pretend there are no valid issues raised by the wearing of a Niqab in a Western society is disingenuous.[/quote]

The valid issue is wearing full-face coverings in sensitive public areas such as banks and mass transit venues. Singling out the burqa rather than making it a blanket, neutral ban and pretending it has nothing to do with antipathy towards unpopular religious symbolism is disingenuous.

Likewise pretending that the wearing of a burqa is de facto evidence of coercion is also disingenuous. That’s a guess, not evidence and consequently it has no place being legislated.

[quote=“Mick”]Even in Malaysia the face veil is banned in places, as it is in some other parts of the Muslim world, yet still more Muslim states discourage its use and call it a secular form of dress which has no place in its society. Muslims are banned from wearing it during the holiest of pilgrimages the Hajj.

When the issue is so hotly debated even in the Muslim world, to pretend there are no valid issues raised by the wearing of a Niqab in a Western society is disingenuous.[/quote]
That argument is well-addressed in the article in the Turkish context.

Buttercup, do you support torture of some people in the UK because their govts do it? External reciprocity is idiotic when dealing with individuals on the one hand and govts on the other.

I don’t give a crap.

I don’t like to see women in burquas, though. How do they work? Ah, that’s right. They don’t.

[quote=“Buttercup”]I don’t give a crap.

I don’t like to see women in burquas, though. How do they work? Ah, that’s right. They don’t.[/quote]

Do you really want to provide encouragement to those in Britain who would tell women what they can and cannot wear?

[quote=“politbureau”][quote=“Buttercup”]I don’t give a crap.

I don’t like to see women in burquas, though. How do they work? Ah, that’s right. They don’t.[/quote]

Do you really want to provide encouragement to those in Britain who would tell women what they can and cannot wear?[/quote]

No, I want the women to choose not to wear it themselves. Get over yourselves. Grow up. No-one gives a shit whether you show your chin in this country. Join in. Integrate. Make a bloody effort. You moved here, either because you chose to or because you had to, and you are most welcome. Now get on with it and contribute.

Of course I am against the state telling people what to wear.