Political Theory: Plato vs. Aristotle

Politics International Politics
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I’m tired of contemporary politics and the same old party lines. So, here’s one for the political theorists and political philosophers:

[color=blue]Plato or Aristotle, who do you prefer?[/color]

Personally, I think that Aristotle just didn’t get it. In a world in which counting and dividing up things counts for smart, I guess he was. But he was also a misogynist and bigot, and all too willing to bow before and serve power. On the other hand, Plato ended up an embittered aristocrat and elitist. Still, I like his style.

Admittedly, it’s the neo-Aristotelians who have the greatest positive influence on contemporary political thought. I start off hating their ideas and throwing their books across the room, but end up being convinced and admitting there must be something to it. Plato’s influence doesn’t extend much beyond first year political science/ philosophy and argumentative style.

Ahhh, for a bit of political philosophy… some real discussion… a symposium (philosophical drinking party).

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After having about 5 Aristotles I know longer have Platonic solids.

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Plato was who the Cowboys played back in the day, right? :laughing:

You pooor sorry bastard, a Western philosopher stuck in the US politics forum.

Writing out of Taipei, Taiwan, a.k.a., bum-fuck World third, to boot. :laughing:

$0.02 :smiling_imp:

(good luck fighting the good fight, though!)

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Yeah, thanks flike. Well, I got two replies on this thread, which is two more than I expected… although neither answered my question. Hmm… I wonder what I’ll come up with next in the intelligent, unpopular thread category. Not that my intitial post was all that intelligent… not a reasoned argument in sight. The spin-meisters must be rubbing off on me. :frowning:

Hey, posting crap that nobody cares about is spam, right?
And spamming is a bannable offense.
Could I get banned for this???
Hmmm… :ponder: Maybe I should flounder my own thread. :laughing:

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I think it’s a great thread. My problem is that it has been so long since I read those guys. I can remember the Plato better than the Aristotle, but it’s still a pretty small pool of knowledge for me to be able to contribute intelligently, especially when there is a bonefide expert in our midst. :wink:

I certainly agree with you, Jaboney, that Plato seems like the more admirable guy. And I really liked his metaphysics, writing on the forms, allegory of the cave, and so on. The Republic , on the other hand – always seemed a little too contrived. I suppose benevolent philosopher kings don’t strike me as a terrible idea (my fondness for democratic government is far more “choose the least bad option in a real world full of bad options” than anything else) – but I’m just not sure that ol’ Plato wasn’t getting so far out there as to make the entire notion a little uninteresting. :idunno:

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At least Plato wasn’t down on the written word like Aristotle who thought it would dumb us down and prefered the sound of his own voice.

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Plato or Aristotle, who do you prefer?

Robert Pirsig, in his book

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Politically, Aristotle was an advocate of an enlightened aristocracy as the best form of government, while Plato was something of a proto-socialist or even communist, with the State directing all the affairs of life. Plato’s model for the Republic was certainly more imaginative and original than Aristotle’s ideas of good government. Aristotle simply looked at existing forms and weighed and judged them, while Plato designed the first Utopia - so Plato was probably the more influential. However, that’s not necessarily a good thing. You can easily draw a line from Plato’s Republic to Lenin’s U.S.S.R., and even Nazi Germany (Plato was a fervent advocate of eugenics). Aristotle was more of a conservative with a small ‘c’ who was cognizant of human limitations. While Plato saw citizens as tools of the State, Aristotle had more respect for individuality, and realized that no utopia could ever work because men were men, not automatons. His basic political theory, that of the cycle of despotism to democracy and back again, rests on the assumption - realization, actually - that people are inherently flawed and thus any form of government they will form lends itself to eventual corruption.

So, I find Aristotle more sensible concerning government, though he was enough of a conservative that he bought into many of the bigotries and prejudices of his day. Plato’s radical advocacy of equality for women makes that aspect of his communistic (with a small c) philosophy more palatable to us moderns.

On edit: Actually, Aristotle’s ideal form of government would be an enlightened philosopher-king, but if I recall correctly he said that the odds of finding such men was like looking for needles in haystacks, so aristocracy was the next best (humanly achievable) choice.

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[quote=“Hobbes”]I think it’s a great thread. My problem is that it has been so long since I read those guys. I can remember the Plato better than the Aristotle, but it’s still a pretty small pool of knowledge for me to be able to contribute intelligently, especially when there is a bonefide expert in our midst. :wink:

I certainly agree with you, Jaboney, that Plato seems like the more admirable guy. And I really liked his metaphysics, writing on the forms, allegory of the cave, and so on. The Republic , on the other hand – always seemed a little too contrived. I suppose benevolent philosopher kings don’t strike me as a terrible idea (my fondness for democratic government is far more “choose the least bad option in a real world full of bad options” than anything else) – but I’m just not sure that ol’ Plato wasn’t getting so far out there as to make the entire notion a little uninteresting. :idunno:[/quote]
One of Heinlein’s characters described The Republic as “antlike communism”. Ayn Rand’s takeoff on it, in Anthem was pretty good, IMHO – it’s fine when you’re the one on top, or have no intellect whatsoever, but for anyone with a brain, it would suck.

I suppose for those who believe, as did the author of Cannibals All!, that 95% of humanity would be happier as slaves, Plato’s utopia makes sense.

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Wow! Real responses, thank you all. :bow:

[quote=“Hobbes”]I certainly agree with you, Jaboney, that Plato seems like the more admirable guy. And I really liked his metaphysics, writing on the forms, allegory of the cave, and so on. The Republic , on the other hand – always seemed a little too contrived. [/quote] Well, I didn’t really expect anyone who takes on Hobbes as his avator to like Aristotle! And yeah, it’s contrived, but even Plato seems to acknowledge that when he concludes that even if you did everything right, the ideal state would probably only last ten years.

OutofChaos, I think you just gave me a thesis abstract, but I’ll right there with you on the benefits of a holistic approach.

[quote=“mod lang”]You can easily draw a line from Plato’s Republic to Lenin’s U.S.S.R., and even Nazi Germany (Plato was a fervent advocate of eugenics). [/quote] Yeah, and people do, but I think it’s bunk. You’re right on the rest, though, as much as I hate to admit it. That’s why I keep reading the neo-Aristotelians, no matter how many times I send them sailing across the room. Damn, I hate it when I have to change my perfectly reasonably prejudices. :fume:

[quote=“MaPoSquid”]I suppose for those who believe, as did the author of Cannibals All!, that 95% of humanity would be happier as slaves, Plato’s utopia makes sense.[/quote] Well, Plato’s theory of justice amounts to “each receiving from the community, all of the support, training and resources necessary to fulfill their particular potential, minus what the community requires in return in order to see others fulfill their particular potential.” And despite all the good contemporary theorists can do with him, Aristotle’s take on justice–darn it, I forget if it’s the Nicomachaen Ethics or On Politics–basically begins by saying, “Remember what Plato said, and all that stuff about equality? Forget it. Justice obtains between men of equal power… everyone else is a dog at the master’s table.” Not in so many words, but you get the picture.

So, personally and stylistically, I’ve got to favour Plato, but…choke…I suppose… damn! damn! damn!.. I’ve got to give it to Aristotle’s system.

Cheers all. Any further thoughts? Recommended reading?

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Yes, I understand. As an idealistic liberal, you have to believe in Plato’s system. But as a realist, Aristotle’s conservativism (with the little c, goddamnit) just makes more sense.

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Yep, I can admit, that pretty much nails it. :idunno: What can I say? I am who I am. Heart and head intact; not so bad, is it?

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Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
Hobbes was fond of his dram.
And Rene’ Descartes was a drunken fart: “I drink therefore I am.”