Politics Vs Climate (and how to stop it)

I think were coming full-circle here.

We honestly need ‘clean energy’ and if the future is listening to us…

The majority will have to come from nuclear to power the vast and ever growing populations of the world and the bigger energy needs of industry.

Where possible an alternative [to nuclear] should be used. For example tidal energy for those that can harness it, solar for those that can and so on. This should be without exception.

It seems a shame that were [the human population] being so nervous and short sighted into our future. That we have a three-fold problem. Polution, not build ‘clean’ energy and investing in our future energy infrastructure.

Read this article yesterday: bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18319933

I think it shows the problem, that if you don’t nail down a plan, were going to flounder. If we continue to not make solid plans then the problem will just be there climate or no climate. Another massive and sad fail for politics.

The problem is that we should not be keeping this society on life-support. By doing so, we are compounding all sorts of other problems - such as destruction of farmlands and waterways - that will kill us eventually, in quite unpleasant ways. All we’re doing is putting off the inevitable, with ever more frenzied desperation.

Quite right. Taipei will, sooner or later, crumble into the ground because it can’t achieve the resource flow required to sustain it, just like every other city that now sits under the desert sands because the rulers thought they had tamed nature. Then we can build something on top of its ruins that will actually run on solar power. It’s not difficult to do so, but because power is never a design constraint (MRT designers simply assume that they can install a pipe as big as they want to provide the juice), it’s not implemented.

That’s because most of them studied Art History instead of the hard sciences. We do need to “power down”, but that doesn’t involve going back to the 19th century, which was actually far more inefficient and wasteful than what we’ve got now. That’s why people were poorer than they are now. It’s quite the opposite - we need to take a queasy leap into the 21st century, something that we’ve been studiously avoiding so far.

It is perfectly possible to run an entire society on solar, but not this one, because it was designed specifically to operate from certain types of power sources, and to rely heavily on certain kinds of energy-wasting technology.

But you’re basically arguing here that things should stay exactly as they are and we shouldn’t change anything - oh, except that we should replace coal with nuclear, and swap one sort of pollution for another. Hardly a radical change. Solar would be downright wrong in that scenario; it would make no logical or financial sense whatsoever. Basically, if you’re going to build a nuclear power station, you should make sure it’s running at full capacity to get your investment back.

That nebulous thing called “industry” is the root of the problem. Humans, as individuals, don’t need much to be happy. They need a roof over their heads, food to eat and clean water to drink, leisure time to interact with other people, clothes to wear (except, possibly, while interacting), and some means of transport to get to where other people are. Oh, and beer. So where the hell did “industry” come from, with a life all of its own, and an appetite that far exceeds anything that individuals consume? Is it really that difficult to provide what humans need?

Just thought y’all might be interested in some back-of-a-napkin calculations, rather than just hand-waving.

In the UK, we have 9GWe of installed nuclear capacity, delivering ~60,000GWh of electricity per year. Build-and-decommission cost is ~100 billion with a design lifetime of about 50 years. 16 nuclear power stations and their ‘exclusion zones’ occupy ~50km2. I have no idea about the annual operating costs of the rest of the UK nuclear industry (research establishments, fuel reprocessing, component manufacture, etc), or the land/resources it uses, but I doubt it’s cheap or small.

9GW is only 16% of the UK’s total capacity, so let’s imagine, for the sake of argument, that it represents the amount used for domestic heating (the actual figure is about 20%, IIRC).

In the UK, you can get ~3GWh/year/ha. from solar (as heat), so to replace the entire nuclear industry would require 20,000ha (200km2) of land, or four times the amount used by the power stations. That’s really not a lot when you think about it: we could bomb Telford and Milton Keynes, and install an equivalent area of solar collectors. The up-front cost would be higher: I estimate ~300 billion, with a 20-year lifetime, but operating costs should be much lower.

Oooh, but I cheated. I’m delivering heat, not electricity. Well, so what? All that electricity is getting turned back into heat. What a waste of time and effort! You could argue that, if we built more efficient houses using passivhaus concepts, we wouldn’t need all that heat. Well, absolutely. Less capacity means less cost. Increase efficiency by ~60% and the installed capacity cost is back down to 100 billion. Even so, we will always need a certain amount of heat - not just for domestic use but for industrial processes too. The fact remains that collecting solar heat needs only four times more space than a nuclear power station. Even better, you don’t need a special site for it (in fact, you can’t collect heat at a “power station” - it’s too difficult to distribute it). Install it on rooftops or on small, unused brownfield sites, and it takes up virtually no space at all.

Electricity is a whole different story. To replace those power stations with an equivalent electricity output from PV panels would need an area ten times bigger (ie., about the size of greater London). If you were trying to replace the UK’s entire generating capacity, it’d be 10,000km2, which would mean bombing half of Wales, and that would annoy the sheep. This is why a lot of people argue that solar will never work.

I am, of course, glossing over a lot of detail. But we can still draw three rather simple conclusions:

  1. If we don’t need electricity, we shouldn’t attempt to generate electricity from solar.
  2. If we reduce our energy consumption by ~80%, we will need no more land area, and will spend no more money on generation (most likely a lot less) than we do now.
  3. If we refuse to implement (1) and (2), we will have no choice but to commit sheep genocide.

[quote=“finley”]Just thought y’all might be interested in some back-of-a-napkin calculations, rather than just hand-waving.

In the UK, we have 9GWe of installed nuclear capacity…In the UK, you can get ~3GWh/year/ha. from solar (as heat), so to replace the entire nuclear industry would require 20,000ha (200km2) of land, or four times the amount used by the power stations. That’s really not a lot when you think about it: we could bomb Telford and Milton Keynes, and install an equivalent area of solar collectors. The up-front cost would be higher: I estimate ~300 billion, with a 20-year lifetime, but operating costs should be much lower.
[/quote]

I have grave doubts about these figures. That you could replace a nuclear power plant with a solar thermal plant four times the size of the nuclear station - that goes way beyond anything I’ve read. We haven’t talked about it so far, but there are several projects underway to build power plants in the desert that use solar thermal (not photo-voltaics) to generate electrical power. There are several of these in the world, including one under construction near Las Vegas, Nevada.


Crescent Dunes solar thermal plant, near Las Vegas, artist’s conception

Although they make for good public relations exercises, the output of solar thermal demo plants isn’t great even in the Nevada desert (which, I feel safe in saying, is sunnier than the UK). Here is a really good explanation of why this technology doesn’t work as well as advertised:

papundits.wordpress.com/2012/03/ … very-step/

Nevertheless, even poor performance is better than none. It would probably be worth exploring if you live in a place like Phoenix, Arizona, and have sufficient space in an enormous back yard for something like this:


Solar Sterling Engine

I do appreciate the difference between generating electricity and using solar for direct heating. You mentioned “passive heating” - I have some indirect experience with that. In another life (30 years ago) I lived in Reno, Nevada, which is in the desert, but it’s “cold desert” (at high latitude and high altitude). It’s one of the best places in the world to test out this idea of heating with solar, since there is much demand for heat in winter and there is plenty of sunshine. Several of my neighbors had solar greenhouses in the back yard, and I’ve been inside those. Yes, it can be a good 10 degrees Celsius warmer inside the greenhouse than outside (during the daytime), but the chief benefit for my neighbors was that they were able to sit outside and sun themselves in March (as opposed to May). Some of them started their greenhouse gardens earlier in the season, but not too early since nighttime freezes would have killed the tomato plants unless they put some of kind of fossil-fuel heater in the greenhouse. They might have been able to lower the winter heating bill by perhaps 10%, possibly more, but that’s about it. In summer, it would get too hot, so they’d remove glass panels or open vents to rid themselves of the excess heat.

Solar hot water was another application seen in Reno, but because of the freezing in winter it was necessary to employ a much more complex (and expensive) heater than would be required in Taiwan. There were a couple of different designs - some used a heat-exchange fluid, others emptied the water tank at night. Anyway, point is that solar hot water isn’t nearly so efficient in cold places during winter. Remember that at high latitudes, not only is it colder, but also darker during winter. Even in Alaska some enthusiasts use solar (PV and hot water) in summer, but get zero output in winter.

I appreciate the difference. Here in southern Taiwan, I don’t really need much heat, except for hot water and my wife’s oven (not sure if that could be solar powered, but the bath water can be). Mostly what I need though is electricity, for the lights, electric fans and Internet. I’m hoping that my solar PV panels (and batteries) can accomplish that, but remember that not everyone has a southward facing rooftop. Not sure just where you live Finley - do YOU have a rooftop with unobstructed southwards-facing view where you can stick solar panels?

And there’s still that problem about how to power the high-speed railway, or even the low-speed one.

That’s a tall order, and gets harder every day as the world’s population keeps increasing.

I can’t think of a worse idea than a solar power heating system in Winter in the UK. You’ve got short daylight hours coupled with periods of days to weeks with no direct sunlight at all. Then you’ve got freezing periods. Now unless you have back up power or keep the water running constantly, you are going to have a lot of burst pipes during those times let alone be freezing your ass off!
So when you need the heat the most, you don’t get the heat.

I could be wrong. I was quite surprised too. When I first got that result, I thought “that can’t be right”. Check the numbers yourself. I was assuming 2 suns/day average insolation (ie., 2kWh/day/m2), of which ~40% is recoverable as heat, bearing in mind that the tubes are tilted, so you can’t actually cover a solid area with them. I should stress that I was talking about distributed heat collection, not centralized solar thermal electricity generation, which is only marginally more efficient than PV. I’m aware of the shortcomings of concentrating solar and I consider it a niche technology, at best.

HH is correct that solar energy flux in the UK is all wrong - it doesn’t match what we want. Insolation during the winter is <10kWh/m2 per week, and variable. If your heating load is 150kWh/week then you need >15m2 of panel area, and a big tank. But so what? Including the special insulated tank and all the pipes and control systems, that’s about £6000 worth of kit; if you install it in a new-build house, that’s the bottom-line price. If the equivalent cost of electric heating is £0.2/kWh, and assuming 150kWh/week in winter and 50kWh/week in summer (you still need hot water, remember) that’s 4770kWh/year, or £950. The solar system pays for itself in <7 years, even in sunny old Britain. That’s assuming a completely standard house design, not an ultra-efficient one. Again, you can easily check my figures if you think they’re wrong.

And you could improve on that. Where are the absorption-cycle aircon systems that can soak up that massive amount of extra heat available in summer, and use it to pump heat out of your living room? Why are there no absorption-cycle refrigerators on the market? The technology is there. The market demand is not, because no houses are being built with solar hot-water systems to connect them to. The only appliances in your house that actually NEED electricity are the lights and the electronics, and they use a very small amount.

I don’t really understand the issue with freezing. Most solar-heating systems don’t take the water outside - in fact, if you did that, I’d say the biggest danger would be from water boiling and causing a steam explosion. They normally use a more suitable heat-transfer fluid to bring the heat back to the tank and the water circuit. The main complexity is in the heat exchanger, which must be designed so that the (toxic) heat transfer fluid can never get into the water.

Sure. In Taiwan, we have the opposite problem: too much heat (don’t forget that water has a high specific heat capacity - I bet water heating is still your main energy expenditure). But the solution is as I described above: absorption-cycle aircon, which takes in high-quality heat (from the solar collectors) and very low-quality heat (from your room) and expels medium-quality heat (into the outside air). You can do the same thing with a reverse sterling cycle too. Far better, of course, would be to design buildings properly so that the don’t heat up so much in the first place. I like cooking myself, and my first choice for fuel (if no gas is available!) would be biomass. Yes, I know, you can gasify biomass, but why bother?

A little aside, on the topic of air-conditioning. People think of wasted energy as just, well, wasted. It’s “disappeared”. Often, that isn’t the case - it’s gone elsewhere, like agricultural runoff. Example: imagine a typical community in Taiwan in the middle of summer, with a couple of hundred aircon units blasting out (roughly) one megawatt of heat into the surrounding air. That’s 80% solar heat, which was not only collected completely unintentionally, but has actually been “upgraded” to high-quality (lower entropy) heat by the aircon units. Yes, it’s an enormous waste, but it also warms up the surrounding area; and when you’ve got everyone doing the same thing, the whole city ends up feeling hotter. Which means people crank up the aircon.

2kWh/day, tops. In a more-efficient future, I expect domestic lights and electronic appliances should consume no more than 0.5kWh/day.

No, I don’t, and I wouldn’t try (I’m in a standard high-rise in Danshui). We will always need power companies. I don’t believe in the “self-sufficiency” thing, although there’s no harm in people putting panels on the roof if, like you, they have the ideal orientation for it. I just think that future “power stations” are going to be ad-hoc affairs, a couple of hundred meters across, installed where they’re required on empty spaces that nobody wants or that can do double-duty.

Not hard at all - especially if, as I suggested before, we start “at the bottom”. The picture looks hopeless if you focus exclusively on the industrialized countries, but if you look elsewhere, you see nothing but opportunities.

Now I’m glad you mentioned that, because that’s exactly the sort of thing we’ll see more of in the future. More haste, less speed. I envisage a future where things trundle along at a more leisurely pace, but yield faster end-to-end journey times because of operational improvements.

Example: my farmland is down in Miaoli, and it takes me three hours to get there. 40 minutes on the MRT, 15 minutes buggering about at the station, 30 minutes on the HSR, another 10 minutes waiting, 20 minutes on the train, and 45 minutes on a scooter. Now, that’s 80km as the crow flies. I’ve achieved an effective average speed of 30kph, despite the fact that I spent some of that time at 300kph.

Assuming some hypothetical future transport network that might cover a meandering 160km getting me there, I’d still only need to hit 60kph to achieve the exact same result. That transport system would have to offer me a clear end-to-end run. In that scenario, I’d have a much less bothersome journey, and I’d use so little energy (I’d guess about 5kWh, max.) that it could be easily solar-powered. I don’t know where people get this idea that we have to live like the Amish to be energy-efficient.

Not only absurd but also wrong. Witness world powers using the new carbon taxes to old political ends. I think it took a minute before the poiliticans got their heads around how to make it work to their ends - then they remebered taxation and boom! new policies to [strike]provide the means to increase tax income[/strike] protect the environment.

Not only absurd but also wrong. Witness world powers using the new carbon taxes to old political ends. I think it took a minute before the poiliticans got their heads around how to make it work to their ends - then they remebered taxation and boom! new policies to [strike]provide the means to increase tax income[/strike] protect the environment.[/quote]

That is exactly the point; the two are are so inextricably linked that one can not serve the other. If the government can not objectively make decisions, then it can not serve the good of it’s people by making unbiased choices when it comes to energy usage. Carbon taxes and carbon offsetting are not good ideas or serving the people.
I hoped people would realise I was referring to this fact and not just stupid. If we are to accept the cynical view then we are screwed!

A little bit of net surfing this morning, and I came across two more stories about how amazing solar power will soon replace fossil fuels and nukes.

First up…Solar Impulse Completes World’s First Solar-Powered Intercontinental Flight!

So very impressive, an “intercontinental flight.” It was from Spain to Morocco, across the Strait of Gibralter. Total distance was 515 miles, flying time was 20 hours, so average speed was 26 miles per hour. They had to wait for several weeks to the right conditions, a really sunny summer day with favorable winds. The aircraft carried one person, the pilot. The whole project was funded by the King of Morocco as a publicity stunt.

To read the comments on the various green blogs, they are ecstatic about this great accomplishment. A few naysayers dare to point out that this is a totally impractical machine, nice for PR but useless as a means of transportation. Indeed, considering the month-long wait for the right conditions, the trip would have been much faster by bicycle. But the hardcore solar propagandists will have none of it - they are assuring everyone that this was just a “first step” and soon enough we’ll be seeing flights from New York to Paris on big Boeings and Airbuses powered by solar panels.

Another big story from the same blog:

Germany Sets New Solar Record By Meeting Nearly Half of Country’s Weekend Power Demand

Now this is somewhat more impressive than the solar-powered aircraft. At least some useful power was produced by solar, and in fact quite a large amount. I tip my hat to Germany for this, and as I’ve mentioned earlier, I even intend to install solar panels for my own use. But now some sobering reality - they had one very sunny summer weekend. They (obviously) had no sun at night even during this weekend, nor is Germany particularly sunny on a regular basis. Where did the night time power come from, and where does it normally come from during cloudy and rainy days (which are the norm most of the time)? Minus whatever could be stored in batteries for use at night, the rest comes from Poland. Germany has shut down eight nukes since last year’s Fukushima disaster, and is making up for the loss by buying power from Poland. The Poles are happy to sell it to them, charging premium rates - it’s a nice profitable business and good foreign exchange earner. They have increased their export of electric power by 48% in the past year. Poland doesn’t have nukes yet - for now they produce electricity mainly with coal, but they plan to build two new nukes in the next few years, in part to sell power to Germany but also for their own use.

Again, this isn’t to diminish Germany’s accomplishments with solar (and wind). But a reality check is needed - some dishonest accounting is going on when they claim to be heading towards a nuclear-free and carbon-free future. Buying someone else’s dirty energy is not terribly green.

I read about that too, but I don’t think anybody’s looking at it that way. Even the pilot/team leader said that it was just a stunt, to show what was possible - if not entirely practical - with solar. It’s on a level with going to the moon: great amusement value, and very impressive, but not something that’s going to be directly useful. OTOH, the moon landing did produce a lot of spin-off technologies, not to mention a lot of motivation and national pride. I think that’s the most you could expect from this flight, but some things are (like the ad says) priceless.

btw, the plane had a lot of sponsorship stickers on the side, so I assume there were several investors.

Well … so what, though? That’s why they’ve still got a whole bunch of traditional power stations. As long as the cells deliver enough energy over their lifetime to pay for themselves, that’s all that matters. Frankly, I doubt that they do - but I notice they are at least installed in VERY large arrays (which reduces the cost of installation to something sensible) and on top of purpose-built, low-energy houses. That’s the correct way to use solar.

First ask yourself: why do we need energy at night time? Seriously, WTF are people doing that requires (in most countries) 25-35% of peak load during the graveyard shift? Sure, there are some specialised industries that need to operate 24-7 - semiconductor manufacture, for instance - because of the eye-watering investment in capital plant. Mostly, we ought to be asleep. Likewise with rainy days. Wouldn’t it be nice if a rainstorm was a valid excuse for not going to work? And why DO we have to slide around on snow-covered roads at 8:30am in the depths of winter? Incidentally, clouds are a problem, but not as much of a problem as you’d think: output under diffuse lighting is typically 30%peak.

I agree. I’m more concerned with whether those solar cells do actually achieve energy payback under Germany’s mediocre sunshine, but at least they’re making progress with saving energy, which costs less than installing PV.

I just saw this today:

Global Investment in Renewable Energy at Record High

What caught my eye was this…

[quote]The report, called Global Trends in Renewable Energy Investment 2012, used data from Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

Renewable sources now supply 16.7% of global energy consumption, according to the report, but much of that is biomass used for cooking and heating in developing countries. The authors said the share provided by traditional biomass had declined slightly while the share sourced from modern renewable technologies had risen.[/quote]

I often see some impressive sounding figures for “renewables,” like the above “16.7% of global energy consumption.” I’ve wondered how it can be so high, when wind and solar (what most people think of as “renewables”) are each less than 1% of world energy production (I did say “world,” I know that some countries are significantly higher).

I’ve already noted that there is a recent effort to label traditional hydro-electric power as “renewable,” which may be fair except that it has no room for expansion (all the best dam sites are already occupied) and in fact hydro-power is declining because of siltation of reservoirs. Also, it’s at least interesting that many of the environmental groups that are pushing for renewables are also dead set against the building of more dams and reservoirs to increase hydro-power production, so it’s peculiar to hear them boasting of this being a renewable technology. The recent Three Gorges Dam in China was bitterly opposed by greens, and it may well be the last big hydro-power project ever constructed.

But the really stunning thing here is that biomass is being touted as “renewable,” when in fact what we’re talking about is burning firewood, mostly in the developing world. In many countries this is resulting in deforestation, which has long been identified as a cause of increased CO2 emissions. Do note the quote above: The authors said the share provided by traditional biomass had declined slightly while the share sourced from modern renewable technologies had risen. No specifics provided, but I’m kind of assuming they’re talking about the increased use of ethanol, especially in the USA. It’s widely acknowledged that using ethanol (as a gasoline replacement) is energy-neutral at best, since so much natural gas gets used to produce the ethanol that we could have just used the natural gas directly. The main advantage of ethanol over powering cars with natural gas is that ethanol is easier to handle - it’s a liquid, and works in a traditional carburetor or fuel-injection system. Using natural gas to power a car would involve retro-fitting the cars with storage tanks and a new fuel-injection system, so ethanol is certainly more convenient - but it is not a “green” fuel, and to call it a “renewable” is a joke.

This gets into the concept of EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested). That is to say, it takes energy to produce energy. If you have to invest more energy in production than you get in return, it’s a loss and thus a waste of time. This is something the public doesn’t really understand, but it allows politicians to get away with statements like “the USA is another Saudi Arabia.” Oil in Saudi Arabia has high EROEI, about 30:1, the Canadian tar sands has a low EROEI of about 2:1, and ethanol production around 1:1. The shale oil deposits in the western USA (Colorado and Utah) have a negative EROEI, and ditto (so far) for attempts at nuclear fusion.

In theory wind should have a high EROEI, because it doesn’t take that much energy to produce and maintain the wind towers (takes a lot more though if it’s offshore wind). But because of the intermittent nature of wind, a lot of energy gets expended on backup, which increasingly means building and maintaining natural gas and coal powered plants. Similarly, home solar PV has a much better EROEI if you exclude the batteries (needed for backup), because replacing batteries every few years (unfortunately necessary) consumes a great deal of fossil fuel energy. Solar hot water, on the other hand, should have a very low EROEI.

Conventional nuclear power only has about a 15:1 EROEI, which really isn’t that great. A lot of that has to do with the big problems of handling the nuclear waste and decommissioning cost. If we ever get to fourth generation nukes, that should improve the EROEI many times over, maybe to 100:1, because the plutonium waste gets consumed as fuel.

Playing tricks with numbers will not reduce CO2 emissions. I would like to see some real honesty in energy accounting. It’s indeed rather peculiar that many of those who most strongly advocate reducing CO2 emissions are willing to fudge the figures to make it look like there has been great progress, when in fact there has been very little.

Nicely put, DB. That stuff makes me mad, too. Just take a look at Haiti on Google earth and see what a great job “biofuel” is doing there. The country is a bloody desert because it’s overpopulated and has (had) no viable fuel sources except wood. Now it doesn’t even have that.

Fortunately, the general public are slowly starting to understand about embodied energy and EROEI (especially with regards to ethanol), but it’s too little, too late. Subsidies in the US have (finally!) stopped, but a lot of rich people pocketed a lot of cash until the spigot was turned off. It’s actually even worse than you describe: not only does corn ethanol have virtually no return on (energy) investment, every tonne that gets hauled off and burned takes a couple of kilos of phosphorus and micronutrients out of the soil that won’t be replaced, or will cost time, effort, money and energy to replace from mined sources.

Unfortunately, fraudulent accounting in politics is par for the course. Environmental issues are so complex it’s easy to pull the wool over the eyes of the average voter, especially if they’ve been through an educational system that leaves them unable to understand basic math and science.

Incidentally, I don’t like certain technologies being labelled inherently “renewable”. People conveniently forget that any technology - including wind turbines, solar panels, and hydro dams - all cost money and energy, have a limited lifetime, and involve industrial manufacture. Nothing is completely renewable; fundamentally, manufacturing anything involves an increase in entropy. So, whether solar/wind/hydro etc is better than the traditional equivalent depends on the nature of the installation. Solar in a less-than-sunny country is not renewable in any sense of the word; it’s just generating more waste and burning more fossil fuels for panel manufacture. Dams invariably cause more problems than they solve because they’re too “greedy”. The river was doing something with the energy that you extract, although exactly what it was doing might not be obvious until you take it away. Less-invasive systems would not be so objectionable.

Also, your description of the way gas is used to produce ethanol is a classic example of the way we in The West are trapped by legacy systems, and illustrates what a huge advantage other countries have (those who are on their knees holding out their begging bowls for “compensation”) when it comes to adopting more modern, efficient methods and technology.

EDIT: I don’t understand why you think this is so:

Solar hot water normally has a very rapid payback in terms of cash, energy, and materials, especially since most of the materials involved are easily recyclable at EOL. In theory it could be made even more effective with larger installations, but I’ve not heard of that happening anywhere, because the built environment was not designed to accomodate it.

Yes, that is stunning but not as stunning as the total reversal of the argument regarding this “problem.”

Before, those of us who argued against climate change panic were labeled as dinosaurs or in the clutches of the oil and gas industry.

Today, the full spectrum of abuses and mislabeling and all the money flowing into the climate change alarmist coffers has been revealed.

Consider this a victory lap down with whoops and hollers in the worst possible taste. I feel that I deserve it.

The article in question does not support the use of biomass. In fact, it contrasts it with modern renewables. What is all this silly Fred Smithian trumpeting about?

It wasn’t explicitly supporting it, but it was nevertheless lumping deforestation for firewood in with the “renewable energy” tally. The point DB was making is that (a) trumpeting about 16.7% of world energy being supplied from renewables, when it isn’t, is unhelpful, not least because it provides ammunition for the Fred Smiths of the world; and (b) some unsustainable systems are being quietly relabelled as “sustainable” in order to attract funding, and there are plenty of investors who aren’t too clued up on the technology who will then throw money at it.

The point I was making is that there is no such thing as an inherently-sustainable technology. Some types of technology can, if used properly, be sustainable over a very long timescale. Or, if they’re used improperly, they can actually contribute to the problem. The latter happens a lot, mostly because the implementers simply don’t understand the technical issues. This is the reason (I think) that Fred Smith gets all bent out of shape. However, as the OP originally pointed out, the distinction between “properly” and “improperly” is fundamentally technical, and has little to do with politics.

I don’t think the article was trumpeting. It was an eco news article, and a reasonably non-preachy one at that. The official scientific definition of renewables is not the fault of the journalist. The fact that it was mentioned that much of these renewables are in fact biomass and that this was to be contrasted with modern renewables is due to the fact that the journo is doing his job.

Do you have a problem with biomass being considered renewable? Or do you simply feel that it should be pointed out “somewhere” that some renewables are similar to fossil fuels in their pollution creating properties? If the latter, then I fail to see what you have grounds to criticize this article, which actually seemed pretty fair, factual and focused.

It wasn’t bad, but it was a bit … starry-eyed. It was preaching to the choir. The statistic the journo mentioned is at best meaningless, and at worst a distortion of the facts.

Yes, I have a big problem with that. DB gave a good example of biomass being the complete opposite of renewable (corn ethanol). I gave you another one (deforestation in Haiti). Biomass can be used in a renewable manner, and for some (limited) applications it the best option. I advocated exactly that a few posts back. It can also be used in a completely irresponsible manner, and perpetuating the notion that biomass is always clean’n’green (which this article does) is a Bad Thing.

I also have a problem with “modern renewables” being considered inherently better than low-tech solutions. I would much rather see Haiti embark on a massive reforestation/agroforestry programme (which could be sustainably harvested for biofuels, as well as a myriad of other useful products) rather than some misguided high-tech project to install PV panels on shanty-town roofs so that “kids can get an education”. Unfortunately, of course, they’re not doing either one.

Corn isn’t renewable?

Obviously deforestation is a bad thing. Is anyone saying it isn’t?

Who defines renewable? if not the journo then please state what your issue is with the article.

Overall, I don’t want to get into a long argument on this, but I think you are projecting your own feelings onto the article, which is just a basic, prosaic piece of ho hum journalism.

Well, like you said, it depends on your definition of renewable. My gripe is that the generally-accepted definition is extremely lax. In fact there doesn’t even seem to be a definition, which is why I don’t like the word. Can you offer a definition, and explain why corn (leaving aside the ethanol-conversion issue) is classed as “renewable”?

I don’t understand your point. You can’t just make up definitions as you go along. Or if you do, you at least ought to explain what your definition is.

Of course I am :slight_smile: But that’s my point. It’s ho-hum. It’s the kind of airhead stuff you’d read in Apple Daily. Why is that a problem? Because it’s the most common form of journalism on all environmental issues, and it shapes public thought. We can’t afford ho-hum. This stuff is important. We need to do better than that, because if we have foolish arguments to support what we’re doing, or distort the facts, we’re going to be demolished by the climate-change deniers and the anti-environmentalists, some of whom are not stupid. And we’ll deserve it.

Fair enough old chap.

But I don’t think it was the journo who made up the definition of renewable. Probably the UN or the US EPA or some such body.