Poll: Democracy & Freedom More Important than Economic Dev't

I was going to simply write about this new poll by the Institute for National Policy Research, but then I saw Hu’s 8 points…and…well…I couldn’t help myself…

1. Love, do not harm the motherland.

2. Serve, don’t disserve the people.

[quote]The results show that 84.9 percent of the Democratic Progressive Party respondents and 89.5 percent of the opposition Kuomintang respondents said the government cannot make a decision on the issue without the people’s consent…

…“The key to cross-strait peace and Taiwan’s sustainable development lies in Taiwan’s promotion and facilitation of China’s democratization,”

[/quote]

3. Uphold science; don’t be ignorant and unenlightened.

4. Work hard; don’t be lazy and hate work.

5. Be united and help each other; don’t gain benefits at the expense of others.

[quote]88.7 per cent of respondents in Taiwan are opposed to China

So 35.7% of the people agree or have no opinion? Holy cow, that’s nearly enough to elect CSB once (twice if you add two bullets :smiley: ).

You’ve gotta love the DPP mouthpiece eTaiwanNews. More likely than not, the original question used “China,” not “PRC.” Talk about shooting yourself in the foot by trying so hard to conflate “China” with “PRC” that you fool not only some of the 65.3%, but even your own party-line newswriting staff… lol

So 35.7% of the people agree or have no opinion? Holy cow, that’s nearly enough to elect CSB once (twice if you add two bullets :smiley: ).

You’ve gotta love the DPP mouthpiece eTaiwanNews. More likely than not, the original question used “China,” not “PRC.” Talk about shooting yourself in the foot by trying so hard to conflate “China” with “PRC” that you fool not only some of the 65.3%, but even your own party-line newswriting staff… lol[/quote]

I think your looking at your own foot, zeugmite.

Only 9.5% believe that Taiwan is part of the PRC.

I think your wattage is low, because you don’t even understand what I am saying.

I think I understood quite clearly what you said. I responded by saying that only 9.5% of the people polled agree that Taiwan is part of the PRC.

And if you want to question the validity of the reporting, I suggest you form your own “truth committee” and come up with some evidence that “PRC” was substituted for “China”.

Where in the article does it say that? I don’t see it.

Where in the article does it say that? I don’t see it.[/quote]

It’s in the Taipei Times article.

Sorry. Here’s the link:

taipeitimes.com/News/front/a … 2003297584

Here is part of the TP Times article.

[quote=“TP Times”]Poll highlights [color=red]uncertainty on ties with China[/color]

SURVEY SAYS: Democracy activist Wang Dan said he was appalled that [color=red]many respondents to a survey could not say whether Taiwan was part of the PRC [/color]
By Chang Yun-ping
STAFF REPORTER
Thursday, Mar 16, 2006,Page 1

Advertising Chinese democracy activist Wang Dan (王丹) yesterday said he was appalled at [color=red]a poll that indicated more than 30 percent of the Taiwanese public could not distinguish whether or not Taiwan was part of the People’s Republic of China (PRC).[/color]

According to the poll, [color=red]65 percent of those interviewed did not agree with the idea that Taiwan is part of the PRC, while 9.5 percent agreed and 25 percent said they had no idea or had no comment on the issue.[/color]

“It is incredible to know that about 30 percent of the Taiwanese public are not sure about this question. The logic follows as simply as one not feeling hungry anymore after a big meal. [color=red]How can it be that the Taiwanese people weren’t able to understand the fact that China is an authoritarian country?[/color]” Wang said at a press conference at the release of the poll.

Asked what reforms were deemed most necessary for China, 54 percent of those asked regarded democratic reform as essential, followed by social stability and social justice, which received about 34 and 24 percent support. Only 18.9 percent of the interviewees deemed economic prosperity an immediate concern for reform.
[/quote]

TP Time’s parent paper Liberty Times had this to say on the same poll in an article today. Notice the difference:

[quote=“Liberty Times”][b]國策院「台海兩岸及我國對外關係」民調
逾三成不知中國不民主 王丹批台灣媒體誤導對中認知

The “Taiwan Strait and External Relations” poll by Institute for National Public Research indicates that [color=red]about 30% do not know China is not democratic.[/color] Wang Dan criticizes Taiwan media for misleading views on China.[/b]

83%認同住民自決 62%憂西進大失血

〔記者羅添斌/台北報導〕國策研究院昨公布「台海兩岸及我國對外關係」民調結果,高達八成三的受訪民眾認為「未經人民同意,政府不可自行決定要統一或獨立」,七成三受訪民眾「不願意」為發展經濟利益而犧牲台灣的民主自由,六成二受訪者認為,「兩岸發展經貿後,台灣的資金技術都被中國吸走」。

INPR released a poll… 83% believe “government cannot unilaterally decide on unification or independence without people’s consent”, 73% believe Taiwan’s democracy and freedom “should not” be sacrified for economic benefits, 62% believe “after cross-straits economic development, Taiwan’s capital and technology will all be attracted away by China”.

民調也指出,六成五受訪民眾「不同意」中華人民共和國是民主自由的國家,一成四一受訪民眾則表示「同意」,「不知道」的比率也有二成○八。認為中國最需優先改善的問題,高達五成四受訪者認為是「民主自由」。

[color=red]The poll also points out, 65% of the respondents “do not agree” that the PRC is a democratic and free country, while 14.1% “agree”, and there are also 20.8% who “don’t know.” Responding to the problem that China should improve first, a high 54% of the respondents believe it is “democracy and freedom.”[/color]

不民主中國恐犯台 王丹籲台應有遠見

對民調結果中,竟有超過三成的人不知中國是非民主國家,知名民運人士、王丹表示憂心,他認為部分台灣人對中國政權的錯誤認知,是個嚴重的警訊,而台灣媒體對中國的報導不夠清晰、全面應是成因之一。

[color=red]Reacting to the result in the poll that indicates over 30% of the people do not know China is not a democratic country,[/color] notable activist Wang Dan says, …

王丹說,台灣對中國崛起的走向等議題,欠缺急迫性的認知。王丹表示,如果中國十年後仍是非民主的國家,屆時牽制中國的美國因素若不存在,中國對台動武的可能性必然大增,台灣必須要有遠見,認清現今的政治現實,就是台灣未來前途恐非由兩千三百萬人決定,他說,「不管大象是不是要踩死兔子,台灣也無法改變就是兔子的現實」。

Wang Dan says, … “It doesn’t matter whether the elephant wants to stomp the rabbit, Taiwan still cannot change the reality that in fact it is the rabbit.”[/quote]

Okay, so…

First question:
Did the TP Times get this from eTaiwanNews, or did eTaiwanNews get this from TP Times? I believe it’s the latter.

Immediately the Second question:
Who the fack was smoking what at TP Times today and everyday? Who did TP Times get to do this piece or its translation and to make up those sentences and numbers?

Oh, the beloved TP Times.

Hmm… interesting.

Even the numbers are different:

25% compared to 20.8%.

Very strange, indeed!

That said, I can’t believe that 14% of Taiwanese believe that China is free and democratic and 20.8% don’t know.

So, a whopping 34.1% believe that China is or may be free and democratic?

That doesn’t make any sense.

Even Wang Dan is quoted as contradicting what Liberty Times is saying.

I have a feeling that it is the Liberty Times that has fucked up here.

[quote=“STOP_Ma”]Hmm… interesting.

Even the numbers are different:

25% compared to 20.8%.

Very strange, indeed!

That said, I can’t believe that 20.8% of Taiwanese believe that China is free and democratic.

That doesn’t make any sense.

Even Wang Dan is quoted as contradicting what Liberty Times is saying.

I have a feeling that it is the Liberty Times that has fucked up here.[/quote]

No, you read wrong. 20.8% “don’t know.” (Or more likely don’t care.)

And no, Liberty Times has the right version. Wang Dan was expressing his disbelief, not contradicting anything.
The TP Times article doesn’t even make sense the way it is. Using the right poll question from the parent paper makes the article’s follow on comment from Wang Dan make sense.

Admit it. Your favorite TP Times makes up shit and craps it all over the place, then you eat it up. Thank me for pointing it out. :smiley:

[quote=“zeugmite”][quote=“STOP_Ma”]Hmm… interesting.

Even the numbers are different:

25% compared to 20.8%.

Very strange, indeed!

That said, I can’t believe that 20.8% of Taiwanese believe that China is free and democratic.

That doesn’t make any sense.

Even Wang Dan is quoted as contradicting what Liberty Times is saying.

I have a feeling that it is the Liberty Times that has fucked up here.[/quote]

No, you read wrong. 20.8% “don’t know.” (Or more likely don’t care.)

And no, Liberty Times has the right version. Wang Dan was expressing his disbelief, not contracting anything.
The TP Times article doesn’t even make sense the way it is. Using the right poll question from the parent paper makes the article’s follow on comment from Wang Dan make sense.

Admit it. Your favorite TP Times makes up shit and craps it all over the place, then you eat it up. Thank me for pointing it out. :smiley:[/quote]

zeugmite:

First of all – thank you for pointing this discrepancy out.

However, I still cannot believe that 34% of the Taiwanese believes that the PRC is or may be a democratic and free country.

If that is the case, Taiwan has some serious education problems.

What I want to know is:

What was Wang Dan reacting to?

Was he reacting to a reporters question who informed him of the results (without actually reading the original polling results?

Verification is in order here.

The TT could very well be wrong, though.

Nonetheless, it seems the other results and interpretations are valid.

I was joking. You shouldn’t actually thank me. :astonished:

Uhh…o.k…??

[quote=“STOP_Ma”]However, I still cannot believe that 34% of the Taiwanese believes that the PRC is or may be a democratic and free country.

If that is the case, Taiwan has some serious education problems.[/quote]

believe it… Taiwan’s education system is that bad, an utter farce… and you’re assuming those 34% even participated in this ludicrous miseducation system that this island has… Even the cream of Taiwan public education is an utter joke, not to mention the low end of the education scale… The (DPP) education minister seriously wants to have all Taiwanese schools use world maps that are printed tilted 90 degrees to the left, so that Taiwan is above the Mainland in order to encourage pride of Taiwan in students… he’s also pushing less English, more Taiwanese in the education system… he redefines green nut job :loco: … and this utter cretin is at the helm of the education system, it was only laughably bad, it’s going to get worse…

Have you ever been to the deep South, Tainan county, the heartland of green sentiment?.. the average citizen down there makes early Neanderthal man seem like a Harvard intellectual…

Uh…plaz…

the point was raised by zeugmite that a good portion of the Taiwanese community believed that China was free and democratic.

This sounded absurd and I called him on it.

Apparently, he was amusing himself.


Now, it seems clear to me that if the TI movement stays focused and sends the message that freedom and democracy is at stake for Taiwan, and that the KMT are against these highly valued ideas – the 2008 election will be that much easier for the pan-greens.

STOP_Ma,

plasmatron has a valid point. Many rural Taiwanese have barely been to Taipei, let alone left the island.

So it is not terribly difficult to use ones Western education to convince these people that the moon is made of cheese or Taiwanese are not Chinese.

30% have no clue what the ROC is…good job pan-Green propaganda.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]STOP_Ma,

plasmatron has a valid point. Many rural Taiwanese have barely been to Taipei, let alone left the island.

So it is not terribly difficult to use ones Western education to convince these people that the moon is made of cheese or Taiwanese are not Chinese.

30% have no clue what the ROC is…good job pan-Green propaganda.[/quote]

AC and Plaz:

I’m not going to get into a debate with you about this borderline biggoted idea of yours.

Nor will I get into the KMT’s previous 40 years of revisionist history taught in each and every Taiwanese classroom.

I won’t even touch on the issue of the thousand-fold brainwashing and constant censorship that occurs in China on a daily basis.

Why?

Because it’s besides the point here.

It is increasingly clear that the Taiwanese DO NOT want what the PRC wants. That is their choice. That is their right. And let the truth be told.

I"m going to quote, via a Chewycorns post, a TP Times snippet, despite that page 1 of this thread shows it is an unethical paper that fabricates entire paragraphs of “news.” But this one is true.

Yeah, right. It was a calligraphic scroll in Chinese. It was addressed wrongly and it had the wrong meaning, and most egregiously, one of four large characters was the wrong one.

plasmatron: Well, I’m sure Tainanese are smarter than you by thousands of li. Look at you, speaking as if you’re better than the people of Taiwan. Who do you think you are? Have you been involved in Taiwan’s education system? And I’m not talking about teaching English at some bushiban or kindergarten. And what is wrong with using more Taiwanese? Obviously, you don’t realize that most people on this Earth seem to get on with their lives without speaking a word of English. English’s usage as an “international language,” historically, is only very recent. What do you even know about the history of the education system in Taiwan?

With your last sentence, buddy, you clearly tell everyone here that you’re the last of Homo Erectus.

[quote=“shawn_c”]plasmatron: Well, I’m sure Tainanese are smarter than you by thousands of li. Look at you, speaking as if you’re better than the people of Taiwan. Who do you think you are? Have you been involved in Taiwan’s education system? And I’m not talking about teaching English at some buxiban or kindergarten. And what is wrong with using more Taiwanese? Obviously, you don’t realize that most people on this Earth seem to get on with their lives without speaking a word of English. English’s usage as an “international language,” historically, is only very recent. What do you even know about the history of the education system in Taiwan?

With your last sentence, buddy, you clearly tell everyone here that you’re the last of Homo Erectus.[/quote]

This is what happens when the pro-China people are hit with facts they can’t refute. The cognative dissonance created by the PRC propaganda makes them spew outrageous drivel like this.