Post Gadaffi Libya - What Now?

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]An analysis from STRATFOR - (its a pay site so I will post in entirety for those interested)

I, personally, think its less than genuine to refer to this as a “rebellion” or “internal struggle.” The influence of outside actors has been paramount in this conflict. London, Paris, Damascus, Tehran, Langley…hell, probably several more have been the impetus both in $$$s, equipment, intel, logistics and friggin cheer-leading.
I look for a ‘cleansing action’ following this with many, if not most, of the lead actors being removed to make way for the designated leaders to assume their positions.
These things have a way of going…mostly…according to script.

:2cents:[/quote]

I’m not sure if any ‘script’ will work here. Libya is one of the most tribal countries in the Maghreb, and in the rest of the Arab world.

You have something like nine main tribes and another hundred minor ones, and they’re all used to running things their way. We’ll see what happens. If things get bad, everyone will rush back to their tribes and circle the wagons there.

canadaka.net/link.php?id=71443[quote]A Canadian man died on the frontlines of the Libyan conflict this week while fighting with the rebels trying to oust Moammar Gadhafi from power.

A friend has revealed that Nader Benrewin was shot dead by a sniper as he took part in a raid on Gadhafi’s Bab al-Aziziya compound in Tripoli, which Libyan rebels stormed on Tuesday. Benrewin, 24, was born in Edmonton, but worked in Ottawa for the past three years.

The Ottawa man made the decision to go back to Libya where his family was living and he pledged to fight with the rebels. Benrewin was trained in Benghazi and stationed near the Tunisian border before taking part in the raid on Gadhafi’s compound.

Alabadleh said Benrewin was a peace activist who enjoyed meals and riverside strolls with his friends.[/quote]

Rest in Peace, my good man. :notworthy:

It will be another afganistan

How can a peace activist fight in a war?

How can a peace activist fight in a war?[/quote]
Maybe he wasn’t an absolutist about it. Maybe he recognized that sometimes it’s necessary and worthwhile to go to war.

How can a peace activist fight in a war?[/quote]
Maybe he wasn’t an absolutist about it. Maybe he recognized that sometimes it’s necessary and worthwhile to go to war.[/quote]

Wouldn’t that simply make him an ‘average man’ rather than a peace activist? It’s one thing to recognize the need to comprimise a position, it’s another thing to act in a manner which is the polar opposite of a declared position. In this case the peace activist label doesn’t have much credibility. I could understand if he was in country while his family came under attack and took up arms to fight with them. However this so called peace activist left an IT job in Ottawa, flew half way around the world to join a rebel army.

No.
Maybe, maybe not.
Don’t know what the facts actually are. Perhaps your description is correct. Perhaps it’d be more accurate to write: “However, this dedicated peace activist left an IT job in Ottawa, flew half way around the world to stand with his family and join a democratic rebellion.”

:ponder:

:ponder:[/quote]
Well…Yes…that does appear to be a bit of a stretch… :ponder: + 2

:ponder:[/quote]
:ponder: back at ya.

Well, lets look a bit at historical precedents for “revolutions” in Libya and such countries. There is a ‘script’ that has repeated itself and presumably will continue to do so.

[quote][i]"A prime example of the fracturing of a rebel coalition occurred after the fall of the Najibullah regime in Afghanistan in 1992, when the various warlords involved in overthrowing the regime became locked in a struggle for power that plunged the country into a period of destructive anarchy. While much of Afghanistan was eventually conquered by the Taliban movement — seen by many terrorized civilians as the country’s salvation — the Taliban were still at war with the Northern Alliance when the United States invaded the country in October 2001.

A similar descent into anarchy followed the 1991 overthrow of Somali dictator Mohamed Said Barre. The fractious nature of Somali regional and clan interests combined with international meddling has made it impossible for any power to assert control over the country. Even the jihadist group al Shabaab has been wracked by Somali divisiveness.

But this dynamic does not happen only in countries with strong clan or tribal structures. It was also clearly demonstrated following the 1979 broad-based revolution in Nicaragua, when the Sandinista National Liberation Front turned on its former partners and seized power. Some of those former partners, such as revolutionary hero Eden Pastora, would go on to join the “contras” and fight a civil war against the Sandinistas that wracked Nicaragua until a 1988 cease-fire.

In most of these past cases, including Afghanistan, Somalia and Nicaragua, the internal fault lines were seized upon by outside powers, which then attempted to manipulate one of the factions in order to gain influence in the country. In Afghanistan, for example, warlords backed by Pakistan, Iran, Russia and India were all vying for control of the country. In Somalia, the Ethiopians, Eritreans and Kenyans have been heavily involved, and in Nicaragua, contra groups backed by the United States opposed the Cuban- and Soviet-backed Sandinistas.

Outside influence exploiting regional and tribal fault lines is also a potential danger in Libya. Egypt is a relatively powerful neighbor that has long tried to meddle in Libya and has long coveted its energy wealth. While Egypt is currently focused on its own internal issues as well as the Israel/Palestinian issue, its attention could very well return to Libya in the future. Italy, the United Kingdom and France also have a history of involvement in Libya. Its provinces were Italian colonies from 1911 until they were conquered by allied troops in the North African campaign in 1943. The British then controlled Tripolitania and Cyrenaica and the French controlled Fezzan province until Libyan independence in 1951. It is no accident that France and the United Kingdom led the calls for NATO intervention in Libya following the February uprising, and the Italians became very involved once they jumped on the bandwagon. It is believed that oil companies from these countries as well as the United States and Canada will be in a prime position to continue to work Libya’s oil fields. Qatar, Turkey and the United Arab Emirates also played important roles in supporting the rebels, and it is believed they will continue to have influence with the rebel leadership."[/i]
Read more: Libya After Gadhafi: Transitioning from Rebellion to Rule | STRATFOR[/quote]This one is, I believe, a freebie so it should be accessible to all.

As was noted previously, this is far from an “internal rebellion.” Yes, locals are playing the role of foot-soldier (looking at the photos of the “rebels” it is quite clear that they were pulled into the “rebellion” with little to no notice or training), but the ‘leaders’ of this action are from outside Libya. It is these ‘leaders’ who will, as previously said, step into the vacuum when the shooting slows down.
Look for the Muslim Brotherhood, check out is history, to be ushered into the ruling council when its established.

turning my crystal ball off for “Typhoon Day” break…:smiley:

Not so much,

[quote=“CBC news”] Tarek said he had agreed to keep his brother’s actions a secret from their parents so as not to worry them. The brothers also feared that any mention of joining rebels could endanger Benrewin, lest the phone lines be tapped.

Benrewin’s sudden death came as a shock to the rest of the family. [/quote]

Family was back in Canada. The story also mentions his brother referring to him as a peacefull man not a peace activist so I guess it’s a pretty much moot discussion. Democratic rebellion? I think you’re fooling yourself about this whole Libyan adventure but, to each his own.

Edit: Looks like I read the article wrong about the family being in Canada. I actually haven’t found any article explicitly stating his parents location.

There you go. Looked at three different websites now, and got three different stories. :shrug:

Why do you think the democratic rebellion bit is bunk? I’m not arguing that the place will end up being democratic, only that the primary motivation of most of the rebels can be characterized as democratic. Few rebellions or revolutions, at the end, reflect what they were at the beginning.

[quote=“Jaboney”]There you go. Looked at three different websites now, and got three different stories. :shrug:

Why do you think the democratic rebellion bit is bunk? I’m not arguing that the place will end up being democratic, only that the primary motivation of most of the rebels can be characterized as democratic. Few rebellions or revolutions, at the end, reflect what they were at the beginning.[/quote]

I simply haven’t seen anything where the rebels mention democracy as their motivation. Even if I had, I’d be skeptical that it was just lip service to make Western intervention on their side more palalable to those nations. After all it would have been hard to convince the West to assist them in setting up a Muslim theocracy. I’m also not sure that most of the rebel ‘rank and file’ have given much thought to anything past overthrowing the current regime. Frankly, I’ve seen the term ‘democratic rebellion’ bandied about more by those in the west particularlly on the left as they try desperately to rationalize their support for this particullar war while they so strongly critized the other two wars. I find it incredible that these folks jumped up and down and in an absolute rabid frenzy claiming Iraq was about the oil and yet not a peep about oil in this case. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to just pick on the left. I also find the right wingers criticism of the war incredible as well.

Regardless, even if the rebelion was a democratic rebelion it really doesn’t matter to me. It’s good to see a brutal tyrant overthrown but, I don’t really buy into this idea that democracy is ideal. At least not in terms of any centeralized government.

A discussion about the “democratic rebellion” in Lybia. Doesn’t look likely.

[quote]Post Qaddafi: Insurgency And Jihad Against Democracy
Posted by Walid Phares, Aug 28th 2011 at 4:59 pm

By seizing Tripoli and fighting what’s left of the pockets of resistance of Qaddafi forces, Libyan rebels have now almost dislodged the old regime and are expected to begin building their own government.

The most pressing question within the international community and in Washington is about the immediate to medium-term future of the country. Will the Transitional National Council swiftly install its bureaucracies in Tripoli and across the country? Will Qaddafi’s supporters accept the new rule or will they become the new rebels? And most importantly, are the current rebels united in their vision for a new Libya?

The following are a few projections based on past statements, known behaviors and geopolitical realities:

1. The Transitional National Council (TNC) Will Logically Move to the Capital and Try to Assert Its Power Over Most Cities and Towns in Libya.

The rebel “operation” in Tripoli revealed that a number of officers serving in the Qaddafi armed forces have betrayed their command and ordered surrender to the advancing rebel forces.

This fact could lead to future revenge actions by Qaddafi loyalists, and thus a cycle of violence may well erupt between the new regime and the supporters of the defunct regime.

Hence the first challenge the TNC will have to face is the need to stabilize its own security grip on the country and its institutions in the near future.

Even if the TNC forms a government, the new regime will be assaulted by a Qaddafi insurgency, regardless of the dictator’s fate. Strongholds such as Syrt on the coast or Sebha in the southern desert will be to the new government what the Sunni Triangle was to the post Saddam Hussein government in Iraq.

2. The TNC has a Plan, At Least According to Its Leaders.

They will dispatch bureaucrats to run the ministries and dispatch their forces to seize and protect state institutions and oil installations.

The interim authority will try to show the world that it is a credible force committed to the country’s international commitments. They will continue to sell oil at a decent price, at least for a while.

Europeans, particularly the French, will get their reward for supporting the rebels.

But expect that Qaddafi loyalists, after four decades of undisputed reign over Libya won’t vanish easily. They will become the next “insurgents” and will try to destabilize the new TNC government. With thousands of soldiers and security elements on the run or in the hiding among their tribes, these Qaddafi remnants will conduct revenge strikes for a period of time.

3. Libya’s Citizens, After Years of Oppression, Torture, and Folly From Qaddafi, Will Enjoy Wider Freedoms and Pluralism. They Will Also Have a Window of Opportunity to Develop a Democracy.

The TNC’s statements have been consistent in promising a “pluralist democracy” once Qaddafi is removed from power. Abdel Jalil, the head of the interim authority, has been diligent in assuring that the rebels are bent on removing a dictator so that the country can become a haven of freedom.

But the window of opportunity may not be wide open endlessly. For another challenge to Libyans –aside from vengeful actions by Qaddafi supporters– will undoubtedly be the rise to power of Islamist militias within the next government. And add to that the ripple effect from the penetration by jihadists of Libya’s institutions and defense institutions.

The dominant assessment in Washington and Europe since the beginning of the Libyan uprising has been that “we don’t know the rebels,” and thus can’t predict their future moves.”

In fact, we do know who the rebels are and can somewhat anticipate their next major moves: The Transitional National Council (TNC) was formed in Benghazi at the onset of the upheaval by almost all the organized Qaddafi political opposition forces. The TNC includes former diplomats, bureaucrats, military officers from the old regime. It also includes politicians and leaders from movements and groups from the political left, Marxists, Socialists, Arab Nationalists, liberals and Islamists.

The TNC’s real composition can be viewed as secularist and Islamist, the latter being the largest organized group — read militia — across the country. Tribal affiliations are important in the build-up of the new government, but the ideological divide will also be a determinant in projecting the future of the country.

Over the past months, we’ve seen the chief mentor of the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Jazeera ideologue, Sheikh Yusuf al Qardawi blessing the “rebels,” particularly their Islamist forces.

Almost all interviews with local commanders on the ground, from inscriptions on their vehicles to war chants, to the narrative of the militiamen, have been unmistakably Islamist, and have had, in many cases, a jihadist, identification.

The minister of information of the TNC is a sophisticated Islamist intellectual who sits on Al Jazeera’s board of governors. — Abdelhakim Belhaj, the military commander of the rebels in Tripoli said “we will only follow what is consistent with Sharia.”

All indications are that the TNC has a dual ideological identity: secular and Islamist. And we know all too well what the long term agenda of Islamists is: establishment of an Islamist state — an emirate on the way to a caliphate.

But the Libyan Islamists, as with their counterparts in Egypt and Libya, are savvy and also understand political tactics. At first, they will walk the walk of a “pluralist-democratic” agenda under the TNC, until the Qaddafi remnants are totally crushed and until ministries and educational and military institutions are secured by their militants.

Oil will flow to the West at a good price to keep foreign pressures at bay. But when the power is solidly in the hands of the new government and the Islamists are well-entrenched in it, the push against the secularists will begin, a national election would be won by the most organized forces, and the building blocks of an Islamist Libya will rise.

As in Egypt and Tunisia, the Obama administration and European governments stood with the rebels in the uprising against the tyrant of Libya. It was the right thing to do. But as in the previous revolutions we’ve seen in this region, the West abandoned the secularists, liberals and minorities and partnered with the Islamists.

If this repeats itself in Libya, we would have replaced one devil — the traditional authoritarians — with a new devil: the Islamist authoritarians.

Walid Phares. Ph.D., is the author of “The Coming Revolution: Struggle for Freedom in the Middle East” and an adviser to members of Congress and the European Parliament. For more, visit walidphares.com
[/quote]

From the “Debka Files” (get some grains of salt ready - but remember the stopped clock)

[quote][i]"Members of the Al Qaeda-linked Libyan Islamic Fighting Group – LIFG, are in control of the former strongholds of Muammar Qaddafi captured by Libyan rebels last Sunday,
They are fighting under the command of Abd Al-Hakim Belhadj, an al Qaeda veteran from Afghanistan whom the CIA captured in Malaysia in 2003 and extradited six years later to Libya where Qaddafi held him in prison.

The LIFG chief now styles himself “Commander of the Tripoli Military Council.” Asked by our sources whether they plan to hand control of the Libyan capital to the National Transitional Council, which has been recognized in the West, the jihadi fighters made a gesture of dismissal without answering.

Tripoli’s institutions of government have wound up in the hands of fighting Islamist brigades belonging to al Qaeda, who are now armed to the teeth with the hardware seized from Qaddafi’s arsenals. No Western or Libyan military force can conceive of dislodging the Islamists from the Libyan capital in the foreseeable future.

Libya has thus created a new model which can only hearten the Islamist extremists eyeing further gains from the Arab Revolt. They may justly conclude that NATO will come to their aid for a rebellion to topple any autocratic Arab ruler. The coalition of British, French, Qatari and Jordanian special forces, with quiet US intelligence support, for capturing Tripoli and ousting Qaddafi, almost certainly met with US President Barack Obama’s approval.

For the first time, therefore, the armies of Western members of NATO took part directly in a bid by extremist Islamic forces to capture an Arab capital and overthrow its ruler.
An attempt to vindicate the way this NATO operation has turned out is underway. Western media are being fed portrayals of the rebel leadership as a coherent and responsible political and military force holding sway from Benghazi in the east up to the Tunisian border in the west.

This depiction is false. Our military sources report that the bulk of rebel military strength in central and western Libya is not under NTC command, nor does it obey orders from rebel headquarters in Benghazi."[/i]
Pro-Al Qaeda brigades control Qaddafi Tripoli strongholds seized by rebels[/quote]

al Queida, the Muslim Brotherhood, NTC, the LIFC and 300 different tribes…all heavily armed and pissed off…all with their own ideas…“democracy” doesn’t look to be in the cards.

You think the Libyan rebels are seeking democracy?

Saw on CNN this morning that the rebels are turning on black citizens accusing them of being mercenaries.

Now the real shit starts.

I don’t think many of them took to the streets for a bi-cameral legislature.
I do think they’re pissed off by 40 years of incompetent rule, a poor economy, and the lack of dignity. And that they see democracy as a cure for those grievances, particularly after the Tunisians and Egyptians stuck knives in their own nasty regimes.

So, yeah. I think the majority are seeking democracy as a solution to what ails them, rather than a good in itself. Some others really care about democracy; some really don’t.

Ten to fifteen years down the road, how many countries in the region do you think will be democratic?
I wouldn’t bet on Libya. Tunisia and Egypt, yeah. I might bet on Syria over Iraq.

I think its just as likely that they are simply tired of being not in-charge and they see the turmoil around them as a chance to get in-charge and have some incompetence favor them for a while.

[quote=“Jaboney”]Ten to fifteen years down the road, how many countries in the region do you think will be democratic?
I wouldn’t bet on Libya. Tunisia and Egypt, yeah. I might bet on Syria over Iraq.[/quote]

I dunno. But, I think Bush envisioned a gradual evolution, where basic civil societies emerge first and later democratic institutions arise. I really haven’t much of a clue as to which nations, if any, go down this road. All I know is that its verl likely a looooong road.

I think its just as likely that they are simply tired of being not in-charge and they see the turmoil around them as a chance to get in-charge and have some incompetence favor them for a while.[/quote]

African overthrow of government. = A new person’s turn to open a Swiss bank account.