Postmodernism

#1
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The Jordan Peterson Thread
#2

Great video, I agree with pretty much all of that, also the characterization of the far left identity politics of course being extremely divisive, but also a lack of self awareness led me to draw a parallel between whats happening on the far left now and what happened in the Margret Thatcher years, 2 and a half years ago I said it would take 10 years to sink in. Others are now making the same comparison.

Margaret Thatcher explained the phenomenon four decades ago: “The one thing about leftwing politicians is that they are always fanatical. They never let go. It’s their religion.” She was describing how the Labour Party had been destroyed from within by a small minority of radicals. Thatcher eventually exploited this process, led the Conservative Party to victory over Labour, and became Prime Minister for eleven years.

#3

Seriously? 20+ years ago Hobsbawm dismantled identity politics. And he was far left, yeah?

Identity politics sits in two positions. The center left/right who created it, and the far right. There is no way that identity politics is far left, other than identity by economic class.

#4

If the left’s focus was purely economic, I would be sitting squarely with them right now. I suggest watching the video (above), they are both left leaning too. It’s not a right critique of the left, it’s a leftist critique of the far left.

I did say there was a lack of awareness to this issue on the left. For a concrete example, look to the three freshmen elected to the House of Representatives. I’ve posted this elsewhere, but will do so again as it best addresses your comment.

#5

If the far left is defined by identity politics, then it’s center left. Or at least it would have been when I were a lad. The far left is about capital, not identity. Or at least it used to be.

I identify as a bit right wing, by the way, if that’s important.

#6

Yes, what you are describing was true when I was a wee one too. Keep watching, no need for me to attempt to persuade as is noted in the video Tempo posted when asked how you deprogram those who have become part of this cult, the answer is “don’t know” or in other words you can’t. In another video I posted where a KGB agent describes brainwashing, he too says you can shower people with real facts and it will have no effect. Until as is noted by many reality crashes in on them.

Sometimes I link to Iman Mohamad Tawhidi, this happened to him. One day he was a Islamist hating the west and Israel studying in Iraq, the next ISIS had invaded Mosul and his uncle was being burned alive not far from where he was and then it hit him.

So, also to add. In Tempo’s video it is also asked how long will this take and do we need to let this play out. My guess is, yes, this needs to play itself out and it will be around 10 years.

#7

I’ve watched the links.

Communism is far left, yes? In the Soviet Union doctors earned less than coal miners. Regardless of racial identity, skin colour, sexuality etc.

#8

We are looking at something different. Bernie Sanders is your classical far left politician. As you would imagine, the focus is very much on economics.

The new wave of intersectionality identity politics, doesn’t include economics. It is so incendiary because it is fueled by race, by sex , by bigotry. All the things liberals wanted to be equal between everybody, regardless of race, sex, religion or sexual orientation. Except, this crowd, as they so often do, play with the semantics of words and have redefined what “equal” means. Honestly, you couldn’t make this stuff up.

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#9

But they did make this stuff up. That’s the whole point. :wink:

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#10

Bernie Sanders is against identity politics.

Do you think identity politics is far left or not?

#11

Which is fine. Defining the far left, or the far right is when you drift into authoritarian territory.

Which is to say, AOC and her merry group are the far left of today. Further left than Bernie Sanders as they drift into authoritarian territory.

#12

The old horseshoe thimubaboblle. Spelling?

#13

AOC far left than Sanders?

Possibly, if one considers identity to be left.

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#14

Again, it partly comes down to semantics. Everybody on the left wants equality of opportunity.

Equality of outcome, is the mother-lode of bad ideas and only the far left want that. It is only achieved by authoritarian means and when you start unpacking the implications is hardly distinguishable from fascism.

#15

All discourse comes down to semantics. I agree with you that equality of outcome is bad.

Do you still stand by your initial point that identity politics are a far left development?

#16

The kind of identity politics I’m talking about are perhaps different to the kind you are thinking of.

Feminism for example, used to be easily defined as equal rights for women. However, that has fractured into two groups now. One of those I would solidly identify with, the other, is on the far left.

You could do this for each of the identity political groups, each one has fractured into two groups. The more extreme of which have aligned themselves with each other and now form this intersectionality crowd and it is those people I have described as far left. Chuck in global warming into the mix, somehow that has made it’s way into the religion.

#17

I guess I’m misundertsanding here.

Yes intersectionality is identity politics to the 11. They’re feeling the pain themselves on that ideology.

Now, are identity politics far left yes or no?

#18

That’s ok, it can be hard to get your head around

If it’s equality of opportunity, no. For example gay marriage, is equality of opportunity, there is still some on the right(mostly) who oppose this, I think they are wrong but it’s certainly not an extreme viewpoint.

Equality of outcome, yes. Then everything is broken down and looked at though the lense of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, the complete opposite of what we have been trying to do for the last 60 years and generally was moving positively in the right direction.

Not in the least bit ironically, as you push this ideology of identifying with whatever identity political group a person belongs to. Cause and effect means the men will do so as well, increasing sexist attitudes and you will get white people forming their own groups, which is happening now.

In fact I would agree there has been a rise in White supremacist groups, worldwide. But, would argue it is much less to do with Donald Trump, as the media would have you believe. It is push back against this far left progressive ideology.

#19

This is all interesting stuff, but will you actually answer the question “Is identity politics far left?”.

#20

Because it is not a yes/no answer. Some of it is, some of it isn’t. You might as well ask “are snakes poisonous, yes or no?” Either way I go a person can provide examples that prove me wrong.