President lee welcomed in new york city

But USA, Taiwanese and Japanese Nationalism is okay.

You think US/Taiwan and Japanese Nationalism is on par with Chinese Nationalism huh? You might want to subscribe to other news agencies than xinhua :loco:

Good thing you don’t live in China otherwise you couldn’t even read from this one :smiley:

But Taiwanese nationalism is okay too, right? Don’t censor the news, just bury it in slander and vicious attacks. Never mind that it splits the country, threatens society and makes Taiwan more vulnerable to attack from anyone. What makes the Taiwan nationalists any better than the enemies they claim to fight?

[quote=“ac_dropout”]The ROC map is still being published on Taiwan, so it is not old at all.

If you compare to an old map of China, like Yuan dynasty map, you will see China has shrunk in the last 700 years.

You would have to go back to at least to the Southern Sung dynasty to claim that China has been expanding.

Selective memory issues TI supporters have. Much to learn Young Shrimpcrack you have.[/quote]

If Taiwan is an integral part of China, why isn’t it the same color on your refenenced map?
Seems like more fuel for the TI’ers AC.

[quote][/quote]

[quote=“ac_dropout”]
But part key to this problem. Rome and the Scandinavian culture and society are long lost, morphed by modernization and collapse of empires. China on the other hand has been a continuous culture since the Big Bang, if you buy the propoganda.[/quote]

When it comes to Rome, then not so, I would dare to say. Ever heard of Latin languages. (French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Romanian etc…) Also, the cultural heritage of the romans still play a big role in Europe and the world today. We are talking about concepts such as Christianity, continental European law etc.

The mongols on the other hand left little trace where they went. That includes China, Eastern Europe, central asia etc. languages derived from Mongolian are only spoken in inner and outer mongolia etc.

You have to start from the Ming dynasty maps for that to occur.

Even if we were to look at a Ch’ing dynasty map one would have to take into account the period of the unfair treaties since HK and Taiwan are both “stolen” from China at that point.

[quote=“Mr He”][quote=“ac_dropout”]
But part key to this problem. Rome and the Scandinavian culture and society are long lost, morphed by modernization and collapse of empires. China on the other hand has been a continuous culture since the Big Bang, if you buy the propoganda.[/quote]

When it comes to Rome, then not so, I would dare to say. Ever heard of Latin languages. (French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Romanian etc…) Also, the cultural heritage of the romans still play a big role in Europe and the world today. We are talking about concepts such as Christianity, continental European law etc.

The mongols on the other hand left little trace where they went. That includes China, Eastern Europe, central Asia etc. languages derived from Mongolian are only spoken in inner and outer mongolia etc.[/quote]

To some degree, but Europe decided to break apart into tiny Nation-States, and is only recently trying to emulate China in the sense of forming an umbrella identity through the EU.

Also if asked to read classical latin, unless one lives in the Vatican, it is almost beyond the average European. Classical Chinese on the other hand is still readily accessible to most people in China.

Mongolians and Manchus are the barbarian rulers of China. They came as rulers and left as Chinese. Not many Manchu even want to admit they are Manchu, they just say they are Dongbei people or just Chinese.

The Chinese Culture is ETERNAL (Yellow River theme song in the background :boo-hoo:)

[quote=“ac_dropout”]You have to start from the Ming dynasty maps for that to occur.

Even if we were to look at a Ch’ing dynasty map one would have to take into account the period of the unfair treaties since HK and Taiwan are both “stolen” from China at that point.[/quote]

I guess Great Britan could also claim that America, and India, and half of the damn world, for that matter, were “stolen” from them too.

Well that really a Great Britian issue. From a Chinese Nationalist point of view as long as HK was returned.

The next conflict will be of course to get UK to return the “stolen” cultural artifacts to China. But that’s another thread.

But part key to this problem. Rome and the Scandinavian culture and society are long lost, morphed by modernization and collapse of empires. China on the other hand has been a continuous culture since the Big Bang, if you buy the propoganda.

So you are saying the Chinese Nationalist are not justified in correcting the original sin brought on by the foriegners?[/quote]

You missed my point. Rome and Scandinavian culture are very much with us today. Law, the welfare state, etc… I was being sarcastic…

Chinese Nationalists can justify whatever they want to. So can any political essence. That does not necassarily make it God’s Master Plan.

Ideology stuggles with: dilpomatic, military, social, & economic power.

To bring this back on topic: I think that true Chinese nationalists of whatever political stripe recognize that China’s true essence lies not in what it has done, but what it has experienced, and how it has matured. With the PRC in charge now, that maturity has been grossly stunted.

The crux of the buiscuit is the Chinese Military-Industrial Complex.

Posts that posit that Chinese identity today has anything to do with a map of the Mongol Empire at it’s height miss the point entirely. China’s historical significance is now, rather than then.

Young circada:,“Sometimes it’s wise to erect your castles (arguments) before you invade (post).”
:grandpa:

If one is measuring progress by the Western standards of Democracy than perhaps it has regressed from what Taiwan has achieved.

But that is not what is important to the Chinese Nationalist. They usually look to Singapore as the goal of the modern Chinese government. Stability and strong central government is what they desire.

Chinese Nationalist are looking to take a lead in the region. To rise above aggressive foriegn influence as they percieve them. God’s Master Plan is foriegn to the Chinese Nationalist. Last time God sent his emissaries as spies to China.

The Descendents of the Yellow Emporer have a much different Manifest Destiny. To be united as one under the heaven.

Until TI supporters and their foriegn backers learn to speak in these terms, I fear both sides of the strait will be just talking past one another.

Look as Snow and Rumfield recent trip to China. Act like Dragons at home, come to China and the act like worms. RMB policy is not going to change, and China is not planning to stop exporting apparels either.

“Hello, Cowgirl In The Sand,
Is This Place At Your Command?”

Neil Young.
When’s he gonna do a Chinese theme rock album. Kinda like Thin Lizzy’s ChinaTown (1980?) meets fuzz geetar…

Don’t know about Neil Young.

But the “Twelve Girl Band” have a modern version of Yellow River that is sure the stir the blood of any red blood Chinese Nationalist.

And no offense, they are a lot easier on the eyes than Neil Young.

twelvegirlsband.com/main.htm

My personal fav is Yin Yan. She’s an Erhu player.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]But that is not what is important to the Chinese Nationalist. They usually look to Singapore as the goal of the modern Chinese government. Stability and strong central government is what they desire.

Chinese Nationalist are looking to take a lead in the region. To rise above aggressive foreign influence as they percieve them. God’s Master Plan is foreign to the Chinese Nationalist. Last time God sent his emissaries as spies to China.

The Descendents of the Yellow Emporer have a much different Manifest Destiny. To be united as one under the heaven.

Until TI supporters and their foreign backers learn to speak in these terms, I fear both sides of the strait will be just talking past one another.

Look as Snow and Rumfield recent trip to China. Act like Dragons at home, come to China and the act like worms. RMB policy is not going to change, and China is not planning to stop exporting apparels either.[/quote]

Scary scary stuff. First your mention of Singapore’s government as a model to strive for. YUCK! If you scratch the surface, don’t they have a totalitarian regime with no real freedoms to speak of.

Decedants of the Yellow Emperor, wow, scary nationalistic furor speak and you even use the phrase manifest destiny. Sick stuff, especially when used to talk about world domination of the Chinese race!

You also say that missionaries are spies, implying they should be what, avoided, or killed by a mob, or just imply not allowed in China. I know you hate freedom of religion in your Chinese Totalitarian state, where nothing is above the power of the Communist Party and its minions and tentacles.

Then you include the foreign supporters of TI, Taiwan is already independent so no need to try to confuse everyone about that fact.

Then you point out how Rumsfeld is being a worm in China. Oh how proud it must make you Chinese feel that Rumsfeld is putty in your hands.

Too many pro-China chauvenists in this forum. I am glad this forum is pro-Taiwan and this is best reflected in the domain name.

Back on Topic, Lee Teng Hui pointed out yesterday while in the United States, that Taiwan does not need to declare independance because it is already independant.

That man is so clever. Is it about time someone reminded everyone again about that politically loaded label given to anyone opposed to unification with that foreign Communist State. All opposed are labeled Independence advocates which is two birds with one stone as it confuses the rest of the world into believing the Communist Chinese propaganda that Taiwan is currently a part of China.

AC, I think you are the one who needs to brush up on Chinese history. One of the reasons the Mongols failed to hold on to China for very long was, in part, due to their inability to integrate with the Han Chinese. The Mongols never integrated into Han Chinese society like the Manchus did, nor did they try to intergrate Han Chinese into the government on the scale that the Manchus did in order to legitimize their rule.

LittleBuddhaTW,

Actually you only told half the story of the fall of the Yuan dynasty to these TI supporters. The other half of the story is that the common Mongolian felt that the ruling Mongolian had become too Sincized, too foriegn, to rule over the Mongolian empire. Internal conflicts arose which allowed for the Ming dynasty to be established.

However, like PRC and ROC. The Yuan dynasty refuse to admit defeat when driven back to Mongolia and the Ming dynasty ruled the “Mainland.”

Interesting to note is that that the Qing dynasty is the actual successor to the Yuan dynasty not the Ming. The Mongols eventually surrendered to the Manchu, whereby the symbolic hand over of the Yuan royal seal occured.

So is there a lesson to be learn in Chinese history if TI is to succeed on any level? Perhaps surrendering Taiwan to an allie that is interested in defeating the CCP and not just screwing around with this “strategic competitor, economic partner” paradigm.