Pseudo-Sovereignty Files

Politics International Politics
1

The pseudo-sovereignty phase is now underway in Iraq, being conducted by the same people who brought you ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction Are Gonna Getcha!’ and its fear-exploitation sequel ‘Saddam Loves Osama’.

With the ‘Abu Ghraib Is Gonna Grab You’ team in charge of the push for pseudo-sovereignty in Iraq we can reliably look forward to more major progress this summer in the all important war for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Unfortunately, the ‘progress’ isn’t likely going to be in the right direction:

Interim Government Resists U.S. Proposal to Exempt Foreigners From Iraqi Law

BAGHDAD, June 13 – In an early test of its imminent sovereignty, Iraq’s new government has been resisting a U.S. demand that thousands of foreign contractors here be granted immunity from Iraqi law . . .

The U.S. proposal, although not widely known, . . . would put the highly visible U.S. foreign contractors into a special legal category, not subject to military justice and beyond the reach of Iraq’s justice system. . .

Although the Bush administration repeatedly has promised that Iraqis will receive authentic sovereignty, the U.S. military has made it clear that U.S. officers will remain in charge of security, the country’s top concern. People here widely assume that U.S. influence will remain decisive for a long time in almost every domain.

The in-control status of U.S. troops and officials – from Humvee drivers who demand priority in traffic to civilian administrators intervening in the choice of Iraqi leaders – often has been cited by Iraqis who oppose the occupation on nationalist grounds. The civilian contractors, particularly armed security personnel, have generated similar resentment from Iraqis, many of whom long ago tired of having foreigners tell them where they can and cannot go.

The question of the contractors’ status also has arisen because of two U.S. contract employees at Abu Ghraib prison who were accused in a Pentagon report of participating in illegal abuse of Iraqi prisoners. The two – Steven Stephanowicz of CACI International, an Arlington-based defense firm, and John B. Israel of the Titan Corp. of San Diego – have not been charged with any crimes in Iraq or the United States, although some of their Army colleagues face military tribunals.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39159-2004Jun13.html

2

How is this different from various agreements that US personnel have with the following countries: Germany, South Korea or Japan?

Finally, Abu Ghraib for all the abuse going on never involved torture. Yes, we can all scream in a hysterical fashion about torture but so far only abuse has occurred and for all the hew and cry has been quite limited.

So what should we be looking for in the falling sky this time?

3

[quote=“fred smith”]
So what should we be looking for in the falling sky this time?[/quote]
Fred,

Keep your eyes out for this piece:

"New evidence that the physical abuse of detainees in Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay was authorised at the top of the Bush administration will emerge in Washington this week, adding further to pressure on the White House.

The Telegraph understands that four confidential Red Cross documents implicating senior Pentagon civilians in the Abu Ghraib scandal have been passed to an American television network, which is preparing to make them public shortly.

According to lawyers familiar with the Red Cross reports, they will contradict previous testimony by senior Pentagon officials who have claimed that the abuse in the Abu Ghraib prison was an isolated incident."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/06/13/wguan13.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/06/13/ixworld.html

4

Does using dogs and making prisoners stand for lengthy times count as the horrible abuse that you are going to “reveal?” If so, gosh, you know, color me unimpressed.

If you can prove that the sexual abuse and feces smearing etc. was authorized then color me more impressed. Can you? Will you? That would make a difference in my book.

5

What is the difference between ‘abuse’ and ‘torture’? For instance, does hooding someone, standing them on a box and putting what they think are electrical wires on their wrists count as abuse or torture?

6

Believe me I imagine that anyone would know the difference between abuse and torture. If the wires had been hooked up that would be torture. As it is I would say that not doing so was still abuse. Then, the worst of it is the sexual abuse. That should be prosecuted as such. Rape and sexual abuse are very serious offenses in the army even against an enemy population. Prosecute those involved to the fullest.

7

Quiz:
Sleep depreviation
Standing in the hot sun
Being beaten / kicked
…

Abuse “only”?

8

Sorry Rascal:

Even in civilized Germany, to my knowledge, sleep deprivation and standing in the hot sun are not even abuse but normal interrogation methods. Sorry a massage and hot oil treatment for the hair are not included too? Is there no limit to what these animals have done!

Kicking and beating IS abuse and can also be considered torture depending on the extent and it IS wrong, but physically intimidating someone or a slap or push are not. Please consult with your own German police to see what kinds of methods they use. I am sure that you will be SHOCKED to find that some of these may be used as well EVEN in Germany. But still a major improvement over the techniques used previously wouldn’t you say?

Say for example, the following… This from a site I know that you will love since it is no friend of America… Read it and weep Rascal. Read it and weep and be sure to raise your voice in outrage a bit closer to home this time. Germany is up to its neck nay eyes in this debate. Feel free to get involved and show your concern to the politicans back home. Every vote in a democracy counts. Every vote.

wsws.org/articles/2003/mar20 … -m08.shtml

At a time when war is once again being declared a legitimate means of political policy

9

And once again you ignore the fact that many are INNOCENT, else they wouldn’t be released, would they?
But I guess they deserve such treatment, too, all in the name of a “safer” world …

10

How about beating, sodomizing, sexually humiliating prisoners, stripping them naked, forcing them to masturbate and smearing them with shit? Does that color you impressed Fred? It should. It’s all torture, and our troops did it. According to hte 1984 Convention Against Torture, to which the US is a signatory, torture is defined as . . .

unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

By signing that Convention the US agreed as follows:

[quote]No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war. . . may be invoked as a justification of torture.

An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

Each State Party shall ensure that education and information regarding the prohibition against torture are fully included in the training of law enforcement personnel, civil or military. . .

Each State Party shall include this prohibition in the rules or instructions issued in regard to the duties and functions of any such person.[/quote]

Are you impressed yet Fred? How about the following provision, to which the US agreed: do you believe the US will compensate those Iraqis who were tortured? Will it pay compensation to the families of those who were tortured to death?

You can play your silly little Rush Limbaugh games, Fred, and pretend it was just a silly frat-boy prank, but the fact is the US has engaged in systematic torture of prisoners, many of whom were civilians who were not charged with any crimes, in serious violatoin of international law. And, as spook pointed out, not surprisingly, increasing evidence is coming out about the high levels at which the use of torture was sanctioned, approved or authorized.

news.independent.co.uk/world/ame … ory=530973

Now are you impressed, Fred? Is the US still morally superior to the rest of the world?

11

Oh grow up MT: (and I mean that)

Reread my post about what I said about sexual abuse. The things that you have described should be prosecuted and I have detailed how. This qualifies as rape and sexual abuse and the armed forces already have SERIOUS penalties for these. So don’t get on this straw man bullshit when I have no where come even close to making the statements or expressing the sentiments that you have accused and/or implied that I have. Reread my posts. I stand by them.

Have I ever EVER said that these should not be prosecuted, but given that this is a US matter, we will deal with it in cooperation with international agencies like Amnesty International, the Red Cross and the interim Iraqi government. Does anyone here doubt that justice will be served?

But as to those citizens of other governments who continually express interest in US actions, they should and would be better served by looking closer to home and getting rid of the very abuses that are present in their backyards before being so eager to throw stones at the US so yes, in that case, they can “fuck off” too. haha

But as to being in uncomfortable positions and sleep deprivation and being placed next to growling dogs or being intimidated guess what? It is standard practice and I think that should remain. Again, reread my posts and look at our dear friends in Germany who have a rather serious list of offenses to deal with as well. Are you equally concerned about the tragic and horrible abuses perpetrated against INNOCENT refugees including WOMEN and CHILDREN by the evil German police? Are you?

And Rascal:

Are you so sure that only those that are guilty are being tortured in Germany? Why then would the government, judges and police be lobbying the government to ALLOW torture in GERMANY? Did you know this? What is going on here? Is Germany too becoming an evil American clone? What an outrage? Are you contacting your politicians and newspapers right now to do something about this? After all, it is in YOUR country!!!

12

Fred, what’s up - using a comparision again to make your point and perhaps justify the US torture?
“Everyone” is doing it so let’s join in? :unamused:

Though I guess if you really want to talk about police brutality you could open another thread - I am sure we could list more examples from the US than from Germany. But that would be “Anti-American”, so perhaps you don’t want to go there …

13

But we are always talking about AMERICAN this or AMERICAN that until it is revealed that GERMANY does this and FRANCE does that. Again, my point is given that none of your national interests are involved, what’s your beef? You were obviously unconcerned when Iraqis were being tortured under Saddam. Now, you only care that they occur at American hands. If it was torture that you were truly concerned about, then look where you can do the most benefit at home first. That’s my point. YOU are NOT involved in this so clean up the push for torture to be officially allowed at home before making such a stink about this because America is involved. I just fail to understand why any of this even remotely impacts upon your outraged (outrageous?) existence.

Sorry but this obsession of yours has become worrisome.

14

"The United States intends to transfer legal custody of former president Saddam Hussein to Iraq’s interim government if asked by the country’s new prime minister, U.S. occupation administrator L. Paul Bremer said Tuesday. . .

“If they ask for him, which I have every reason to believe they will . . . we’ll turn him over,” Bremer said. He added, however, that “legal custody and physical custody can be two separate things.”

(Sovereignty and pseudo-sovereignty are the two ‘separate things’ he’s really referring to, of course.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43004-2004Jun15.html

15

I don’t quite understand the bleating about ‘pseudo-sovereignty’ here.

This is but a step in the process of transferring sovereignty to Iraq. It is now clear that the US will still be responsible for security in the near future. And this seems very sensible, given the conditions. An outright transfer of sovereignty seems foolish, indeed impossible, at this point.

Is there anyone who doesn’t agree with this point?

16

I don’t see Germany invading another country, rounding up some suspects and then torturing them.
Police brutality might relate but the report you linked doesn’t provide much of evidence to the claim that those were not isolated incidents; in particular the first example made me laugh (threat of torture, not torture itself was used).

Torturing people in Germany is a national interest. :smiling_imp:

Anyhow, my point remains: the ones arrested in Iraq were suspects, some not even criminals nor terroists, so they are not animals that deserve torture.
But maybe that’s the part you still haven’t figured - not everyone ending up in the “US (military) wheel of justice” is a terrorist.

17

How are the immigrants to Germany “guilty?” How did they know that these criminals had actually committed their acts? How did they know that the kidnapper had really kidnapped? What make torture a national policy?

Oh and I believe you mean Germany has not invaded any nations RECENTLY isn’t that what you mean? You want to talk torture and abuse. It is no coincidence that almost every dictatorship in the Middle East modeled itself along the lines of what government? Hitler’s Germany.

Again, if we want to invade Iraq, what’s it to you? Is Germany involved? The UN agrees and has sanctioned our involvement. What’s your beef? Your anti-Americanism is clear to all. Get some help.

We hear about American torture and no one else’s. And really what is the torture? None. There was abuse, some of it quite serious, including sexual abuse and it is being punished. There have always been laws about these kinds of things but standing in the sun and sleep deprivation are not recognized as abuse much less torture but accepted interrogation methods. Now we find Germany has the same methods and silence or “but I want to talk only about America.” Why? What is this obsession that you have with the United States? I find it bewildering. There are psychiatrists that can help with these things. Ask Brune Ale for a recommendation. haha

18

Hey, I never said that police brutality or torture, in Germany or anywhere else, is ok.
And I don’t think it’s a national policy. At least not yet.

Uh well, yes, recently as not in the last 50 years. Compare that to the US (how many countries did they invade and bomb) and what kind of regimes they supported RECENTLY, in the last 50 years that is.

Hitler’s Germany as the “role-model” for dicators? Come on fred, dictatorships (and torture) have been known to exist for far longer …

Have a nice day.

19

PS: Educate yourself on what warrants as torture: apt.ch/un/definition.htm

20

Actually Rascal:

Did you read the article that I posted. In it, Germany was looking at making torture an officially sanctioned method of interrogation. I do not recall that the US has even reached this level yet. Interesting?

Second, check out your Middle Eastern history. Dictatorships particular the Baathist DIRECTLY organized their organizations on Hitler’s Germany, not some dictatorship in general. Interesting? This is where surprise surprise much of the virulent anti-Semitism in the Middle East was transplanted as well. Then don’t forget Hitler’s mythical Aryan utopia which the Muslims have adopted to hearken back to this mythical greatness during the Caliphate. Yawn! Pathetic.

Third, who has America invaded recently? Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada, Bosnia, Kosovo, Liberia, Haiti and Somalia. This of course since Vietnam. Does Korea also count as an invasion? France in World War II? Germany in World War II? Just curious. Now, out of those invasions, which do you refuse to accept as legitimate? Now, even your precious UN sanctions OFFICIALLY the US led coalition presence in Iraq. So the US is now in compliance with “international law” according to your standards. So what is your continued beef? Why?

Now, the true organization that is noncompliant with UN regulations and international law is the UN itself. Are you going to do something about that? I refer to the UN Oil for Food program and the use of UN ambulances for terrorist activities with the compliance of UN officials. I doubt it. You are anti-American and your posts border on racism not concern for “international law” “innocent victims” or any of the other ostensible reasons that you post. You are RACIST. The only difference is that in today’s world your kind of bigotry is acceptable. But from any moral framework, it is not and times may change.

Finally, I know what torture is and so does the American leadership. I disagree that making prisoners or interrogatees uncomfortable is unacceptable.