# Pygmies from The Mummy Returns **URL:** \ **Category:** Open Forum\ **Created:** [October 2, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047 "2015-10-02T08:44:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/1 "2015-10-02T08:44:55Z")
The Mummy Returns (2001) was on TV, and I watched a part of it, and the similarity between the Pygmies in the film and the Austronesian legends of the “Little Black People.” ![](http://www.cultureblues.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/mummy.jpg) In the film these pygmies are short enough to be invisible when moving through shrubs, attack by grabbing people’s ankles, and use blow darts as weapons. They are wiped out in the end when they all rushed onto a fallen tree trunk spanning a valley and stick of dynamite thrown by O’Connell blows the tree trunk in half, sending the pygmies to fall to their deaths. Compare that to a the main theme of Saisiyat’s Ta’ay legend. Ta’ays are short, impossible to spot in dense jungles, attacks people with blow darts, or dragging unsuspected people away by their ankles. When the Saisiyat finally decided to get rid of the Ta’ay, they booby-trapped a tree trunk spanning a valley, and when all the Ta’ay got on the trunk, the trunk broke off, sending all but two Ta’ays to fall to their deaths. Did the writers of The Mummy Returns reference the Ta’ay legend? Or do cultures other than Austronesians also have legends with the same motif? Ta’ay, a.k.a. the “Little Black People (矮黑人 or 矮靈)” are called “misinsigot” in Altayal, “susungut” in Seediq, “ngutol” in Rukai, “Ta’ay” in Saisiyat, “laikulun” or “satoso” or “takelili” or “tsalutso” in Bunun, “Sugudul” in Paiwan. Amis Pangcah, Ita Thaw, Tsou people also have the same legends but I can’t find the term in their languages. There are similar legends throughout Austronesian islands, such as the duwende, Calanget, Nuno sa Punso, and Laman Lupa legends of the Philippines. Some have suggested the prevalence of the myth in Taiwan means that there were once negritos living in Taiwan, like Aeta, Agta, Ati, and 30 other peoples of the Philippines and Semang people of Malaysia, however that is just a hypothesis. Full Saisiyat Ta’ay legend goes: [quote]A long time ago, a group of Ta’ay lived in a cave on Maybalay mountain (right bank of Wufeng’s Shangping river). Their adults are only around 90 cm tall, but they are physically strong and skilled in magic. They also moved very fast and stealthy in dense jungles, and expert tree climbers. They used poisonous blow darts to hunt. The Saisiyat people at the time relied on hunting as the primary food source, and they were having a difficult time. One day the Saisiyat leader saw a bunch of Ta’ay in a circle chanting magic to ward away snakes. He figured if they know magic, perhaps he could ask them for help. The Ta’ay agreed to teach the Saisiyat people to grow grains, but required that they too receive a portion of the harvest. The Saisiyat people’s lives were drastically improved with Ta’ay’s assistance. Each year, they would invite the Ta’ays over to share their harvest. However, with time they noticed the Ta’ay would also sexually harass Saisiyat women. Eventually they anger towards Ta’ay’s improper behaviors boiled over, and a began planning to put an end to to it. They noticed the Ta’ays would cross the valley using the branches of a huge tree, and rest on the tree afterwards. So one year the Saisiyats chopped up the roots of the tree, and concealed the cut with moss. When the entire population of Ta’ays are done with the festivities, they all got on the tree to make the crossing. As the tree broke off, most Ta’ays fell to their death. Only the Ta’ay leader and his wife survived as they crossed first. When they realized it was no accident, they were furious at the Saisiyat’s treachery after all that the Ta’ay has done for them. The Saisiyat said the Ta’ay’s indecency and molestation of women left them no choice. The Ta’ay couple cursed the Saisiyat to never have a good harvest again. For the next two years, Saisiyat harvests failed, and life was miserable. One day the Ta’ay leader and his wife showed up and said now all their people are gone, they no longer wish to live here. Before they leave, they wanted to let by gone be by gone, and instructed the Saisiyat to perform a series of songs, dances, and enchantments to counter the effect of their curse. The Saisiyat people would commemorate Ta’ay’s legacy and feel remorseful for driving them away. That’s how the ritual of paSta’ay ceremony came about.[/quote] Most Taiwan Aboriginal groups have their own “Little Black People” legends. The most famous being the ta’ay legends of Saisiyat, mainly due to their Pas-ta’ai ceremony. However, the main theme of the Saisiyat Ta’ay legends is common among all Austronesian legends, and some other groups actually have more “Little Black People” legends than the Saisiyat. Most of Little Black People legends native to Taiwan are documented in Legends about pygmies among the Formosan natives, Proceedings of the Conference on Chinese Myth and Legend, 579-604, Li, 1996 (李壬癸：《台灣南島民族關於矮人的傳說》) Sources: [facebook.com/AustronesiaFor … 45591292:0](https://www.facebook.com/AustronesiaFormosa/posts/512526245591292:0) [w3.tkgsh.tn.edu.tw/mis/%AE%D5%A5 … %BB%A1.htm](http://w3.tkgsh.tn.edu.tw/mis/%AE%D5%A5~%A4%F1%C1%C9/90-11%A5%FE%B0%EA%A4%A4%A4p%BE%C7%B0%AA%C2%BE%BA%F4%AD%B6%C0%F2%BC%FA%A4E%B1%DA%B2%D5/race/%B8G%A4H%B6%C7%BB%A1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Zla\_od](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@Zla\_od](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Zla_od)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 7:26am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/2 "2015-10-03T07:26:12Z")
Well, considering that the myth is found on Hawaii as well, and that they actually found a body in Flores (Indonesia), I’d assign a high probability to little black people actually having existed. (“Whatchoo talkin bout Willis?”) Are pygmies considered imaginary magical creatures, like gypsies? ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/3 "2015-10-05T02:21:46Z")
[quote=“Zla’od”]Well, considering that the myth is found on Hawaii as well, and that they actually found a body in Flores (Indonesia), I’d assign a high probability to little black people actually having existed. (“Whatchoo talkin bout Willis?”) Are pygmies considered imaginary magical creatures, like gypsies?[/quote] In most Austronesian myths they are magical creatures. I think they are slightly more magical than myths about the Romani people. Many Austronesian cultures credited the pygmies for the origin of fire, grain, worship, dancing and song. It is interesting that in many Taiwan’s legends, such as the Bunun, their ancestor went into the pygmies’ cave, and were treated grains. When they asked to take some grains back, the pygmies refused, so their ancestors had to hide a couple of grains in the folds of their privates, to escape the pygmies’ inspection as they leave. It’s a common enough myth that “hiding grains in the privates” becomes a motif in Austronesian legends. Paiwan legends seems like the only group that say marriages were once common among their ancestors and the pygmies. ---
**Author:** ![tempogain](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/tempogain/32/264650_2.png) [@tempogain](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/tempogain)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/4 "2015-10-05T03:33:18Z")
Interesting stuff! It’s not far-fetched to imagine a negrito population here considering how wide spread these people were in the past, and that they clearly were sea-faring to some degree. This was linked to in the Negrito wiki article: [taipeitimes.com/News/feat/ar … 2003212815](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/11/27/2003212815) This claims there was a group existing only 100 years ago, but I’m not sure how factual that is. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 8:01am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/5 "2015-10-05T08:01:24Z")
[quote=“Tempo Gain”]Interesting stuff! It’s not far-fetched to imagine a negrito population here considering how wide spread these people were in the past, and that they clearly were sea-faring to some degree. This was linked to in the Negrito wiki article: [taipeitimes.com/News/feat/ar … 2003212815](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/11/27/2003212815) This claims there was a group existing only 100 years ago, but I’m not sure how factual that is.[/quote] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australoid\_race](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australoid_race) [news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/ … globe-away](http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2015/07/mysterious-link-emerges-between-native-americans-and-people-half-globe-away) > [@](#): > > In 2015 two major studies of the DNA of living and ancient people detect in modern Native Americans a trace of DNA related to that of native people from Australia and Melanesia. Australo-Melanesian DNA in some living Native Americans, including those of the Aleutian Islands and the Surui people of Amazonian Brazil. Walter Neves and Mark Hubb argue that these people descended from an early wave of migration that was separate from the one that gave rise to today’s Native Americans, and drew on a different source population in Asia.[15] It is suggested that Negritos are a branch of the Australoid. Their shrinking in size has to do with long isolation and short life expectancy. The typical migration pattern is via the exposed continental shelf from African to SEA, southward to Australia and northward to the Americas. They were the first Homo sapiens to migrate out of Africa about 60,000 BCE. ---
**Author:** ![Chris](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@Chris](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Chris)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 8:13am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/6 "2015-10-05T08:13:10Z")
> [@Zla'od](#): > > Well, considering that the myth is found on Hawaii as well, and that they actually found a body in Flores (Indonesia) More than just a body: they found numerous skeletons of Homo floresiensis. But they are thought to have descended directly from Homo erectus. There are “little black people” today in Asia, commonly known as Negritos. They are descendants of one of the earliest migrations of modern humans (Homo sapiens) out of Africa, the same lineage from which Papuans and Australian Aborigines are thought to descend from. There are Negrito populations in the Philippines, so if the legend is based on reality, my money would be on a Negrito tribe. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 8:35am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/7 "2015-10-05T08:35:31Z")
> [@Chris](#): > > [quote=“Zla’od”]Well, considering that the myth is found on Hawaii as well, and that they actually found a body in Flores (Indonesia) More than just a body: they found numerous skeletons of Homo floresiensis. But they are thought to have descended directly from Homo erectus. There are “little black people” today in Asia, commonly known as Negritos. They are descendants of one of the earliest migrations of modern humans (Homo sapiens) out of Africa, the same lineage from which Papuans and Australian Aborigines are thought to descend from. There are Negrito populations in the Philippines, so if the legend is based on reality, my money would be on a Negrito tribe.[/quote] Unfortunately no archeological proof of Negritos once living in Taiwan has been discovered. If no Negrito actually ever lived in Taiwan, then there are only a few possible scenarios for the pygmy motif myths to be so prevalent throughout Austronesian cultures (assuming Austronesian indeed originated from Taiwan). 1. Proto-Austronesian people had run ins with Negritos before they even reached Taiwan. 2. Stories about Negritos back propagated to Taiwan from the Philippines and other Austronesian settlements via trade or fishing activities. 3. Early Taiwanese had a very active imagination and finding Negritos similar to their myths on other islands is just a coincidence. Although it seems more likely that there once really were Negritos living in Taiwan. ---
**Author:** ![headhonchoII](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@headhonchoII](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/headhonchoII)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 8:59am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/8 "2015-10-05T08:59:28Z")
If the negritoes intermarried with saisyat or other tribes there may be some DNa evidence available. Unfortunately Taiwan’s mountains don’t seem to be conducive to preserving things. The east coast plains might have something , but then they may have only lived in the mountains. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 9:15am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/9 "2015-10-05T09:15:37Z")
> [@Zla'od](#): > > Well, considering that the myth is found on Hawaii as well Thanks, I didn’t know about this. Hawaiian version: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menehune](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menehune) > [@](#): > > In Hawaiian mythology, the Menehune are said to be a people, sometimes described as dwarfs in size, who live in the deep forests and hidden valleys of the Hawaiian Islands In the Hawaiian version, the Menehune magically built several structures overnight. Menehune fishpond wall at Niumalu, Kauaʻi Kīkīaola ditch at Waimea, Kauaʻi Necker Island structures Pa o ka menehune, breakwater at Kahaluʻu Bay. Ulupo Heiau at Kailua, Oahu When the Menehune became uncontrollable like that in the Ta’ay myth, the God of Owls, Paupueo, released his owls to chase them away. Maori version: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patupaiarehe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patupaiarehe) Patupaiarehe, also referred to as Turehu, Ngati Hotu and Urukehu, are pale spirit beings that live in deep forests and mountaintops in New Zealand, and are sometimes hostile to humans. Ethereal flute music and singing sometimes reveals their presence. Taigi version: [zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AD%94 … E%E4%BB%94](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AD%94%E7%A5%9E%E4%BB%94) Among Taigi speakers, môo-sîn-á seems to be a similar story. moo-sin-a is said to have a diminutive stature, child like, but move very fast. They love trickery, and especially likes to get children lost. It is often said they wear red hats. I wonder if Moo-sin-a is unique to Taiwan or also present in other Holo speaking communities. Flores version: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebu\_gogo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebu_gogo) Ebu Gogo myth on the island of Flores is said to be able walkers and fast runners around 1.5 m tall. Since the discovery of Homo floresiensis, some wonders if the myths are evidence of contact. Found a wiki page for myths with little people motifs [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little\_pe … thology%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_people_%28mythology%29) Similar myths seem to be present in early North American cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Chris](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@Chris](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Chris)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 10:04am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/10 "2015-10-05T10:04:18Z")
A lot of cultures have myths about diminutive human-shaped beings, like elves and fairies. ---
**Author:** ![headhonchoII](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@headhonchoII](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/headhonchoII)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 10:34am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/11 "2015-10-05T10:34:26Z")
The naughty aliens flying saucers were handy for getting round. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/12 "2015-11-11T02:27:31Z")
Just read about the Hla’alua (new name for the Saaroa people, used to be grouped under Tsou, but their languages are not mutually intelligible) legend. They refer to the pygmies as Kavurua, and myth goes their ancestors also learned the skill of farming from the Kavuruas. In their version, it was the Hla’alua people who eventually moved away to find a new settlement, and the Kavuruas gave them 12 shell gods, and taught them how to worship them. The Kanakanavu have a similar story, with a young man entering a cave that seem too small to fit but magically grows bigger as he gets closer. In the cave a pygmy gives him food he never tasted before, such as millet and yam and teaches the young man how to grow them. The pygmies are called Kanaira in Kanakanavu, and they have a ceremony dedicated to them. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 1:46am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/13 "2017-03-28T01:46:40Z")
We had a similar reference to Kakamora in Disney’s Polynesian themed Moana. Also check this Indonesian footage out: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TGhLWf5W3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TGhLWf5W3s) ---
**Author:** ![tempogain](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/tempogain/32/264650_2.png) [@tempogain](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/tempogain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 3:54am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/14 "2022-10-09T03:54:53Z")
> **[Negrito skull confirms Taiwan indigenous legends of 'little Black people' |...](https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4680037)** > > 6,000-year-old skull found in Taitung cave was that of a woman who was 139 cm tall | 2022-10-07 18:18:00 ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2022, 4:00am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/15 "2022-10-09T04:00:30Z")
Amazing find! Our negrito ancestors certainly reached very corner or the West Pacific. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2022, 2:12am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/16 "2022-10-14T02:12:33Z")
> **[Negritos in Taiwan and the wider prehistory of Southeast Asia: new discovery...](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00438243.2022.2121315)** > > Taiwan is known as the homeland of the Austronesian-speaking groups, yet other populations already had lived here since the Pleistocene. Conventional notions have postulated that the Palaeolithic h... ![image](https://forumosauploads-12829.kxcdn.com/original/3X/3/9/39eefbc0e6692a271d3ea6e552f962574c4262e2.jpeg) ![image](https://forumosauploads-12829.kxcdn.com/original/3X/7/c/7c1e93ede6d3336aadb51564ed4fafc92577e8c0.jpeg) The flood myth is perfectly justified here in Taiwan. ---
**Author:** ![tempogain](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/tempogain/32/264650_2.png) [@tempogain](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/tempogain)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2022, 2:14am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/17 "2022-10-14T02:14:11Z")
Are there flood stories here? ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2022, 2:27am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/18 "2022-10-14T02:27:06Z")
> [@tempogain](#): > > Are there flood stories here? Nearly every tribe has a flood myth. I’ve translated some of them in this thread in my discussion with @FloodResearcher, who seems to have joined the forum to discuss the subject. > [@Hawaiki and Sanasai, mythical Austronesian home islands](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/hawaiki-and-sanasai-mythical-austronesian-home-islands/85265/9): > > Thank you for the sources. I have collected over 100 Formosan Aboriginal flood myths and I always careful about citing my sources. I’m still looking for English translations of flood myths for the Hla’alua Tribe, Sakizaya Tribe and Seediq Tribe (all Formosan tribes). Also, do you know the defining difference between Atayal and Seediq Flood myths? The best I have found so far is in Ralph Covell’s “Pentecost of the Hills in Taiwan” (p. 45) which vaguely suggests that the “coming out from the man… ---
**Author:** ![FloodResearcher](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/e8c25b/32.png) [@FloodResearcher](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/FloodResearcher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2022, 3:30am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/19 "2022-10-14T03:30:36Z")
A corpus of 220 Formosan flood myths all translated into English will be published very soon with Edwin Mellen Press under the title “The Formosan Deluge Myths”. It includes multiple flood myths from all of Taiwan’s tribes (except the Thao who have no deluge myths). [Academic Publishing Subject Areas](https://mellenpress.com/published-subjects/) ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2022, 7:00am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047/20 "2022-10-14T07:00:48Z")
> [@FloodResearcher](#): > > A corpus of 220 Formosan flood myths all translated into English will be published very soon with Edwin Mellen Press under the title “The Formosan Deluge Myths”. I Amazing work. Can’t wait to see the book! [Next page](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/pygmies-from-the-mummy-returns/88047.md?page=2)