Race and American Politics (split from Bush's iPod)


#21

I guess the point I was trying to make (with little success) was that the black community is not monolithic and that there are certain blacks whom easy could have been presidential material - for me, in my personal view that could have been Colin Powell. He incidentally, comes from a Jamaican background, which is different from much of the black community. I do differentiate, as I would not vote for a Condi Rice for her political views.

Every white has had somepoint in their life where they’ve said something that they later regret. However, I think that living as a sort of “minority” in Taiwan, while far different than being a black in the US, has opened my eyes a bit. I now know just a small taste of what it’s like to have the only open seat on the bus, and no one will sit next to you; or to have people say Lao Wai are boozers and are lazy workers, but we don’t mean you…you’re different. Happens at work all the time and I work for an US MNC.

I also don’t believe that the whites have the market cornered on racism . How many times in Philadelphia have I heard black folk sit and talk about “white folk this and white folk” that right in front of me. Or make disparaging remarks about Asians or whites and Asians together right in front of my family and I. I think once I may have looked upset because the black woman who made a remark like that turned to me and said " sorry if that bothers you" and continued.

Ignorance is equal opportunity.


#22

I am not saying that there can be no complaints. I am merely pointing out that for many Blacks, the color of their skin has not been an obstacle to success or acceptance.

So genuine Blacks are only those who nurse grievances, do not succeed, do not try to get an education, do not dress for success, do not have good manners, use crack, sit on welfare, hang out on the streets in “authentic” gangsta clothes and harass or rob and mug passersby?

I certainly do not look to the average white person as something to emulate either. We look to and admire successful people because of what they have accomplished not because we are part of the same skin color surely?

I still do not understand this.

If you are criticizing those who do not even attempt to move ahead because of a litany of excuses, I completely agree and this is not confined to the Black community. There are plenty of rich Whites who sit in their exclusive prep schools drinking and doing drugs and whining about their parents, the stress, the meaningless of life etc as well. People from all backgrounds can have “problems.” What people as individuals do about those problems is what ultimately defines them and their lives. I think that is a fair way of assessing how to judge them or “rate” them.

I think most successful Blacks as with any other group do precisely that. They ultimately do what it is that makes them happy or what they have to do to succeed without thinking of what others not just white people think of them or their choices.

I do not understand this. All I understand is that with the implementation of generous welfare policies in the late 1960s, Black achievement began to erode. I have posted on chart on this before. After Republican initiated welfare reform in 1996, all indicators on Black poverty began to improve. Republicans are also pushing vouchers which would give a major boost to Black education. Why then do you think that so many in the Black community continue to only vote for Democrats? This is something that has always confused me. Ditto for the Jews.

Sorry, I believe people deal with their problems or become consumed by them. It is a crutch that is easy to lean on until you aren’t walking anymore. Great and even small achievements are difficult. Painful choices and balances have to be made. It is easy to avoid making this tough decisions though if there is this crutch. Healing is what you do when someone in your family dies or you lose your job or you get a divorce etc. It is not a never-ending process of narcissistic nihilistic probing of one’s feelings. My feelings and how I feel about them may be endlessly fascinating to the person in question, but I guarantee you no one else will be interested for long.

I certainly do not and would wonder how anyone living in the US today could possibly know either.

Shall I go back to my ancestor’s German past and live with the Nazi thing for the rest of my life? Shall I continually engage in group and ethnic mortification for what I had no role in just because I am a descendant of Germans?

What damage? Wanna talk to people with real damage? Talk to the victims of concentration camps. Talk to the Boat People. Talk to the starving refugees from Somalia. Talk to the people of Afghanistan, Cambodia, Iraq, but please do not tell me that Black people are suffering today and that this is somehow unique and directly attributable to slavery.

All those factors come into play and I would argue that given the proof directly in front of our eyes that skin color is a very minor factor in getting ahead in today’s America.

And do you have any proof or evidence to the contrary, that the government is not living up to that line in the Bill or Rights? Any at all?

What about it do you think is unfair? Are you saying that those in prison did not commit the crimes that they were accused of and sentenced for? Or are you saying that it is “root causes” that are behind the high rate of Black dysfunctionalism? Then, if it is these, please explain to me how White people or the system is responsible for keeping Blacks from marrying or staying married, for keeping Black fathers involved in their children’s lives, for keeping parents from valuing education and supporting their children in this regard.

They are your feelings and you are fully entitled to them.

Not my impression but …

Why would Blacks in America be somehow different from those from Africa or the Caribbean? Slavery existed in the two other places for even longer than in America. How would descendants of slaves from Jamaica be somehow different psychologically from those from Mississippi. The only difference in my opinion is that Blacks have been subjected to “well-meaning” welfare programs that eroded work ethics, led to substance abuse and dysfunctional families. There was no one to listen to anyone whine about injustice or feelings of inadequacy in Africa or the Caribbean so people got on with their lives working hard and doing the best they could to survive. In America, on the other hand, for 40 years, race became an issue that required “money” to solve it. Throw money at anyone and you will see the same dysfunctionalism. Look at Europe and the welfare and long-term unemployed there. I hear the same whining from Germans when I visit. They are however usually more than capable of rising early to get to the local bar to watch the TV and bitch about the state of the nation as explanations for why they are “suffering.”

How long you want to carry around the cross of those issues is ultimately up to you. No one can help or rush you on that. Be of good cheer, however. I can guarantee that should you ever deal with those issues, new ones will arise. Isn’t it great being a member of the human race? haha

I completely concur.

You and me both.

And I fully believe that you are.

I would have to hear exactly what you mean by overt and also covert. There are very strict laws about these things and prosecution is immediate. In fact, you may have benefited disproportionately because you are Black. There are desperate efforts to avoid racial-discrimination cases which costs companies millions. This has led to desperate efforts to ensure that a quota of Blacks is hired. What do you say about that? Or don’t you see that it was a benefit? Yet, surely you do realize that in a way you were taking advantage of it?

Amen!

This is so true for everyone else. People are competitive and if there were no Blacks on the earth, people would still feel threatened or uncomfortable with seeing others succeed. It has to do with inability to face one’s own lack of accomplishments. If someone else could succeed, the ego must deal with the fact that it could or would not be able to do the same.

Absolutely! and on that note, I had better get back to work as well. haha


#23

Wow - I never knew “Smith” was a German name


#24

There are many things about Fred Smith that are not German. For one, I am kind, generous, fair, open-minded, tolerant, well-mannered, responsible, giving, considerate, helpful, thoughtful, optimistic, committed, dedicated, just, sincere…

I don’t like beer…

I don’t like pretzels…

I have never eaten hamhock in my life…

I do not get constipated thinking about the environment.

I don’t eat muesli with yogurt for breakfast…

I am not fond of the Alps…

I do not ever wear lederhosen…

I have never dreamed about marching across Poland, but I would like to with Iran and Syria…

I do not obsess about angst nor do I use words like Weltanshauung, Weltschmerz, Wehmutlichkeit, Zeitgeist… er um nevermind…


#25

Where would we be without those great words like

Schwerpunkt
Schradenfreud
Ritterkreuz des Eisernes Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillianten

or

Rindfleischetikettierungs


#26

[quote=“fred smith”]
So genuine Blacks are only those who nurse grievances, do not succeed, do not try to get an education, do not dress for success, do not have good manners, use crack, sit on welfare, hang out on the streets in “authentic” gangsta clothes and harass or rob and mug passersby?[/quote]
It’s comments like this that can give the perception that one is baised. Throughtout my posts I have not used sterotypes when dicussing the differences of perception between Blacks and Whites. Yet you have continously. I am beginning to take offence, in fact I find it snide. And I would like it to be cleared up before I make a final judgment.

[quote=“fred”]
I still do not understand this.[/quote]
Defined by the dictionary, acceptance means, apart from many other things, to gain approval. IMO I think it’s apart of the human condition to want to have approval. Hence why we seek love, certain things for social status, higher education,etc. I am using here to describe a point of view that I have about certain attitudes within the Black community. How we about relate to other races and when dealing with racial inequalities. Read the following again, I explained it there:

[quote=“nama”]When ever I hear ‘well I can’t do such and such because da man does such and such’ or the laundry list of racial abuses against Blacks as a reason as to why we can move forward and such, [color=darkred]I think that is coming from a place in the person who thinks if we were accepted then we would be xyz[/color].[/quote]

[quote=“fred”]If you are criticizing those who do not even attempt to move ahead because of a litany of excuses, I completely agree and this is not confined to the Black community. There are plenty of rich Whites who sit in their exclusive prep schools drinking and doing drugs and whining about their parents, the stress, the meaningless of life etc as well. People from all backgrounds can have “problems.” What people as individuals do about those problems is what ultimately defines them and their lives. I think that is a fair way of assessing how to judge them or “rate” them. [/quote] Right on the money there…

[quote=“fred”]I think most successful Blacks as with any other group do precisely that. They ultimately do what it is that makes them happy or what they have to do to succeed without thinking of what others not just white people think of them or their choices.[/quote]Very correct, I am speak about aspect/group or beliefs held within the black community.

IMO it’s not the generous welfare policies that began to cause erosion, although many critics love to use that,lolol. No, I think in the late 1960’s the onset of the erosion was due to that civil right policies weren’t being impliemented as they should have been or not as quick, the return of men from Vietnam with drug habits or other problems that added to other problems that were already in the Black community. In IMO, I sometimes think that intergration did more harm than good, because Blacks being able to move to better communities(nothing wrong with that) caused an economic dwindling in the Black communities.

[quote=“fred”]
I have posted on chart on this before. After Republican initiated welfare reform in 1996, all indicators on Black poverty began to improve. Republicans are also pushing vouchers which would give a major boost to Black education. Why then do you think that so many in the Black community continue to only vote for Democrats? This is something that has always confused me. Ditto for the Jews.[/quote] I have to get back to you on that one. I have to read up about that as I not well informed about those social policies. I know what you are saying about not understanding why Blacks would still vote Democrat when the Republicans created such incentives, and I know the reason why, because I remeber watching about it on a great documentary called “Eyes on the Prize”. But I can’t remember at ths moment…

[quote=“fred”]
Sorry, I believe people deal with their problems or become consumed by them. It is a crutch that is easy to lean on until you aren’t walking anymore. Great and even small achievements are difficult. Painful choices and balances have to be made. It is easy to avoid making this tough decisions though if there is this crutch. [/quote]Here I think you are addressing the issue of victim mentality which knows no color. You are right, IMO a bit harsh but point understood.

[quote=“fred”]
Healing is what you do when someone in your family dies or you lose your job or you get a divorce etc. It is not a never-ending process of narcissistic nihilistic probing of one’s feelings. My feelings and how I feel about them may be endlessly fascinating to the person in question, but I guarantee you no one else will be interested for long.[/quote]There’s a difference between oh woe is me and i have some issues, but im gonna work on resolving them and looking at them.

[quote=“fred”]I certainly do not and would wonder how anyone living in the US today could possibly know either.[/quote] Well, it’s very well ingrained in our social patterns. You’ve got the master mentality where some people still possess the idea that there is a place Blacks and other groups should be. That they have the right to control over and make decisions for them. The slave mentality is that mindset that your destiny is defined by your physical characteristics. I have encountered quite a few Blacks(but not limited to them)who are unwilling to venture out and see beyond racial lines because it’s not something black folks do,etc:roll:

[quote=“fred”]Shall I go back to my ancestor’s German past and live with the Nazi thing for the rest of my life? Shall I continually engage in group and ethnic mortification for what I had no role in just because I am a descendant of Germans?
[/quote]No, but Germany has made efforts to make repartations toward the atrocioucities Jewish families affected by the Holocaust. There are memorials as well as laws. Things that promote a reconition that there was suffering caused. For me, I would just like a strong acknowledgement, like a national memorial or more indepth studying done in history course in high school and elementary school about slavery. In America, there’s always that Oh god here we go again when Blacks discuss wanting repartations for slavery or just acknowledgement for the atrocioucities. You can see the wall of defense come up quickly, along with the attitudes of *well hasn’t enough been done *. Any discuss about slavery in America and the racist acts is the pink elephant in the room who is farting and no one wants to say a dammed thing for fear of looking wrong. Every year, Newsweek, Time and other mags come out with there The state of race in America crap articles. It’s like we’ve been having this one looooong ass discussion about something no one really wants to acknowledge. I think Blacks just want acknowledgement of their expriences with racism. Not the you dwell too much on it or it’s not always that responses.

[quote=“fred”]
What damage? Wanna talk to people with real damage? Talk to the victims of concentration camps. Talk to the Boat People. Talk to the starving refugees from Somalia. Talk to the people of Afghanistan, Cambodia, Iraq, but please do not tell me that Black people are suffering today and that this is somehow unique and directly attributable to slavery[/quote]. What damage? Okay, are you are aware of the techniques that slave masters used to keep fear instilled in their slaves and maintain control? What you think that when the Emancipation Proclamation was signed, Blacks were like “Chicken George” in “Roots” smilling and walking off into some bright ass future?:roll: Slavery dates back to 1502 and ended in 1862 with the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation, and for those in Texas didn’t end until a year later. So, you have 360 years of abuse. Which has been handed down throughout the generations. Slaves learned to relate to their families thru abuse. Now of course people evolve but the scars are still evident in many ways. Then you add in the other social ills that Blacks face doesn’t create wholeness.
I understand what you are saying. That no one has a claim on pain but I am sharing with you a side of an experience that I don’t think you have seen before.

[quote=“fred”]All those factors come into play and I would argue that given the proof directly in front of our eyes that skin color is a very minor factor in getting ahead in today’s America.[/quote] More yes than no, but it still plays a factor, just not so visibily.

[quote=“fred”]And do you have any proof or evidence to the contrary, that the government is not living up to that line in the Bill or Rights? Any at all?[/quote]Yes, but I have to gather my information…

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-01.htm
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/j.1533-8525.1993.tb00395.x?cookieSet=1
http://archive.salon.com/books/it/2000/03/01/deathpenalty/print.html
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/news/opinion/12143928.htm

[quote=“fred”]Why would Blacks in America be somehow different from those from Africa or the Caribbean? Slavery existed in the two other places for even longer than in America. How would descendants of slaves from Jamaica be somehow different psychologically from those from Mississippi. The only difference in my opinion is that Blacks have been subjected to “well-meaning” welfare programs that eroded work ethics, led to substance abuse and dysfunctional families.[/quote] I am assuming that you mean blacks in America. Thanks, I must remember to be more grateful for those ‘well meaning’ welfare programs. That just stinks of condescension. There are many things that lead to eroded work ethics, substance abuse and dysfunctional families. Let’s start with low esteem and a white patriarchal society and systematic racism. Just because these welfare programs were in place didn’t stop Blacks from being lynched, ran off their lands, receiving lower wages because of color. If your welfare arguement was all that good, then MLK was a troublemaker.

[quote=“fred”]There was no one to listen to anyone whine about injustice or feelings of inadequacy in Africa or the Caribbean so people got on with their lives working hard and doing the best they could to survive. In America, on the other hand, for 40 years, race became an issue that required “money” to solve it.[/quote] IMO in the Caribbean had greater access to automony. In Africa, we can see the current results of colonialsm. How that conquer and divide method has created chaos.

[quote=“fred”]Throw money at anyone and you will see the same dysfunctionalism. Look at Europe and the welfare and long-term unemployed there. I hear the same whining from Germans when I visit. They are however usually more than capable of rising early to get to the local bar to watch the TV and bitch about the state of the nation as explanations for why they are “suffering.” [/quote] Can’t speak for Germany mentality but Ifeel that’s rather judgemental.

[quote=“fred”]I would have to hear exactly what you mean by overt and also covert. There are very strict laws about these things and prosecution is immediate. In fact, you may have benefited disproportionately because you are Black. There are desperate efforts to avoid racial-discrimination cases which costs companies millions. This has led to desperate efforts to ensure that a quota of Blacks is hired. What do you say about that? Or don’t you see that it was a benefit? Yet, surely you do realize that in a way you were taking advantage of it?[/quote] The last job I worked my boss was quite the racist. And I did file with the company, and nothing was made of it. When I spoke to another African American about the problems, she had been recently transferred to the store, she told me that she had worked in the corporate offices, and that I wasn’t the first or the last who had filed a complain that was swept under the rug in fact this large corporation has a history of discrimnation and nothing is being done about it,that I can see. And I would have filed with the EEOC but when I quit Iwas returning to Taiwan, so I believed that being overseas the matter wouldn’t have been dealt with.

As for quotas, I don’t think they applied where I was working, because I saw on a regular basis that blacks who address was in a black neighborhood, had their applications thrown away. Yes, I saw this. What probably got me in the door, was a bit of inguenuity on my part. But if I were to question my other past job expriences and whether or not I got in because of quotas, I would have to think about it. Because as I meantioned before, how surprised how several interviews have been when they have seen me in person. Ohhh, your Jennifer? :s Im thinking what’s that suppose to mean? Who else would I be. I’ve also remember reading an article on how names have been a factor in the hiring process. If you have a name like Shenqua or Tyrone, then the HR person is less inclined to make a call back.

[quote=“fred”]This is so true for everyone else. People are competitive and if there were no Blacks on the earth, people would still feel threatened or uncomfortable with seeing others succeed. It has to do with inability to face one’s own lack of accomplishments. If someone else could succeed, the ego must deal with the fact that it could or would not be able to do the same.[/quote] This is true, and I have more to say on this, but i rather put in a pm.

Whew…


#27

[quote=“s.b.”]
I certainly can’t speak for all whites. But being (apparently) white myself, I see and hear racist things from my parents and brother and old classmates and… all the time. (When I bring it up they always remind how they have a latin@ or black or whatever friend–so they aren’t really racist.) I myself often have to consciously try not to spread the stereotypes I’ve had shoved down my throat for as long as I can remember.[/quote]
Just because you are friends with someone who is of a different race doesn’t not necessarly make them racist. I’ve been getting blasted on here about my posts that have to much race in them. And after I read your post, I had an AH-HA moment. I know in my heart of hearts that I am not a racist. Make generalizations-yes, and have made quite a few here. Make sterotypical comments-guilty as charged. And if I’ve offend anyone with them then I do owe an appology…I think people apply the your an racist label too quickly when it’s something else at times…

[quote]But I certainly still harbor them. Not many years ago, in my mostly white town, I was walking down the street and saw a group of white-looking kids who were totally sporting some sort of “urban/tough” look (that there would be PC-code) and all I could do was think “posers.” Walking through the neighboring town with a more latina populacion and seeing a group of kids of similar age/fashion (of a different ethnicity), would have certainly not made me think “posers.” It would be grand to find that I’m alone on this.[/quote] You’re not alone on that one. If I had a dollar for everytime I’ve seen a woman move her purse to the other side of her body when I’m walking toward her, in Taiwan and in the States, I would be able to take a vacation in Rio…

[quote]Frankly, although I can’t speak for everyone, I suspect what bell hooks calls the “straight-white patriarchy” (I think that’s what she called it – I forget) affects pretty much all Americans, if not everyone. This would mean that we would expect to find gay homophobes, non-whites who think whites are somehow superior, and women who consciously accept second-class status.

I would love to see an honest discussion on this topic, but I don’t have much hopes of one occuring on Forumosa (especially this forum). :frowning:[/quote] nice meantion of bell hooks. We can have an honest discussion. If you would like to add more, do so.


#28

Deprived my man very deprived… :laughing: :laughing: I’ll cook you a good old dinner of hamhock with kale, mac and cheese, and your choice of meat if this dicussion ever ends… :astonished:


#29

I am sorry but it was my impression that you were implying that all successful Blacks have “crossed over” and were therefore not authentically Black anymore, hence my (admittedly) snide comment that you seem to think that only those who have not succeeded (and then my list of the usual attributes that go along with this and are certainly not confined to one ethnic group) would be authentic.

[quote]
Defined by the dictionary, acceptance means, apart from many other things, to gain approval. IMO I think it’s apart of the human condition to want to have approval. [/quote]

I will accept this as long as you do not believe that this condition is confined in particular to any specific racial or ethnic group.

No laughing matter. We discussed this in the other thread. Someone provided a table showing that black poverty rates had been falling precipitously before welfare was instituted and then stopped beginning to fall again only after welfare reform was enacted in 1996. Coincidence? I think not.

I still fail to understand how Vietnam or drugs could be blamed when they affected everyone else as well. Civil rights policy perhaps but then why can we so closely correlate this based on the implementation of and dismantling of welfare policies?

I disagree that Blacks wanted to leave their communities anymore than whites wanted to flee the cities. They were forced to by rising crime rates and deteriorating schools. Those problems have been addressed and people are returning. The question now is school reform. Are you up to the challenge? Then vote Republican.

I understand that this is one particular theory that is in fashion. I happen to disagree with it completely.

I think that this has been adequately addressed. Shall we also endlessly discuss the Native Americans and their problems? women? gays? Jews? Chinese? Japanese? I think that there is an assumption that only Blacks have suffered and that Blacks have never been the cause of suffering and that Blacks have never benefited from the system. Clearly, that is not the case when per capita income among Blacks in America is higher than it is for Swedes.

I have to admit to feeling that way myself. What was the old Jewish joke about the endless discussion of the Holocause? There’s no business like shoa business. I think that this is something that could just as easily be lampooned regarding the Black need for “healing” especially since it always seems to boil down to an issue of money and who gets this money? Blacks? or “leaders” who live very luxurious lives while “claiming to represent” Blacks. Know what I mean?

So explain to me why these problems are not equally apparent in the Caribbean which was enslaved for even longer? or Africa where these conditions still exist? And are you suggesting that only Blacks have been “scarred?” What about Jews? women? gays? What about other minority groups? Just curious as to this reasoning which seems to be suggesting that only Blacks as a group have suffered and that everyone else needs to “pay” for it or acknowledge it. I will acknowledge my own individual actions if you don’t mind. I am not a believer in collective or historic guilt (unless it is about the Germans :smiling_imp: )

I cannot access your site but if you want to look at capital punishment. Whites tend to be killed at higher rates than Blacks. The only difference is that there are more Blacks in prison than Whites so their numbers are greater but not as a percentage. And again, are you suggesting that a. the Blacks on death row did not commit the crimes that they were accused of? b. that they do not deserve to die? or c. that we need to determine racial quotas for who and who will not get the death penalty? I thought this was about the punishment fitting the crime.

but if they have suffered the same racism, slavery, oppression etc. where are the scars that have kept them from moving ahead and succeeding? Why are only American Blacks uniquely scarred?

The welfare policies were implemented in 1967 AFTER the lynchings and Martin Luther King etc. AND again, when we see a direct correlation to welfare policies being implemented and then dismantled and Black poverty rates, I think that we have a connection. Also, you would have to show me how white patriarchal society is only going to affect Blacks and not Asians, Jews, Hispanics. Why is it that only Blacks from America and not Blacks from Africa and the Caribbean existing in the same racist society would then suffer uniquely? I don’t think you can make the case here and what’s condescending about pointing out that “well-meaning” was what they were? Are you suggesting that they worked? I attribute the breakdown of the Black family to these policies and this in turn was directly responsible for many of the dysfunctional features that continue to plague Black communities. You talk personal responsibility for yourself but expect Blacks as a group not to have to be responsible. Why is that?

We see nothing of the sort. The Caribbean was ruled by Britain until the 1970s and even 1980s. So the oppression and discrimination of White ruled society existed even longer. We have also seen in Africa conditions deteriorating from independence during the 1960s and 1970s. Why would African societies be becoming more and more poor and underdeveloped with more and more famine and war the farther we get away from colonial rule if colonialism is to blame?

How is it judgmental? You walk into a bar in America, the UK, Germany and anywhere else and you have the same losers with the same whines. Offer than a job and you think they will take it? Oh, but that’s because they have low self-esteem. Must remember that when I decide not to haul my ass into work on Monday. Think that I want to work on Monday morning? Think that the boss will accept that if I tell him that I am suffering and in need of healing? Sorry if this is snide again but you talk individual responsibilty but everything you say about groups tends to reinforce the dissonance that you don’t believe in individual responsibility.

Sorry but I simply do not believe your perception of the matter is correct. These claims are taken very seriously. Perhaps, it was investigated or looked into and there was no basis for it. Unfortunately, there have been many cries of wolf, wolf, wolf about racism that are often not born out and can you believe that some people may even intentionally take advantage of them in the hopes of getting payouts?

Again, I am a bit skeptical about your seeing this throwing away of black resumes because of the address. We Whites are usually much more careful when deliberately refusing to hire Blacks. (I am being very sarcastic here).

[quote]
This is true, and I have more to say on this, but I rather put in a pm. [/quote]

Which I will await with great interest.


#30

[quote=“fred smith”]
Sorry but I simply do not believe your perception of the matter is correct. These claims are taken very seriously. Perhaps, it was investigated or looked into and there was no basis for it. Unfortunately, there have been many cries of wolf, wolf, wolf about racism that are often not born out and can you believe that some people may even intentionally take advantage of them in the hopes of getting payouts?[/quote]

Okay now I’m insulted. :smiling_imp: This is not a perception of some matter, with me going home ranting and raving that I didn’t get my way and that whitey was out to get me.:unamused: The woman who informed me of past incidents was well up in the chain of comand and had transferred to the Chicago area for grad school. Second, my claim was not taken seriously as i had documentation for the incidents involving my boss as well as witnesses. I went thru the chain of command as the company requested us to do should we have such a problem. Supplied them with all the necessary information to have a strong case. I heard only once back from them, saying that they had received my letter and that they would look into the matter. Never heard from them again. I may have my gripes and bitching about race and race matters and discrimination, but if I’m gonna make a point about complaining about it, I am going to make sure that it is substancial and legit. I think the whole circus with Ms. Anita Hill(I know she was sexual but work with the example) was a good example of having your shit together when you make charges.


#31

[quote=“fred smith”]There are many things about Fred Smith that are not German. For one, I am kind, generous, fair, open-minded, tolerant, well-mannered, responsible, giving, considerate, helpful, thoughtful, optimistic, committed, dedicated, just, sincere…

I don’t like beer…

I don’t like pretzels…

I have never eaten hamhock in my life…

I do not get constipated thinking about the environment.

I don’t eat muesli with yogurt for breakfast…

I am not fond of the Alps…

I do not ever wear lederhosen…

I have never dreamed about marching across Poland, but I would like to with Iran and Syria…

I do not obsess about angst nor do I use words like Weltanshauung, Weltschmerz, Wehmutlichkeit, Zeitgeist… er um nevermind…[/quote]And there are many things about Jaboney that are German:

I am kind, generous, fair, open-minded, tolerant, well-mannered, responsible, giving, considerate, helpful, thoughtful, optimistic, committed, dedicated, just, sincere…

I do like beer…

I don’t like pretzels but I love cabbage rolls and perogies,

I do not get constipated thinking about the environment, but I do sometimes worry

I love to eat muesli with yogurt for breakfast…

I have never seen the Alps…but love the Rockies.

I too do not ever wear lederhosen…

I have never dreamed about marching across Poland, but I would like to hike it…

I do not obsess about angst, but I love some art inspired by it. I use words like Weltanshauung and Zeitgeist whenever appropriate if I don’t think an English equivalent works as well.


#32

Oh shit! Now my excuse is gone.

Seriously though, you’re right. Our third President (along with countless other slaveholders) was quite “friendly” with one of his slaves. More recently a biggoted US Senator was found to have fathered a mixed-race child. Just because someone can make a distinction between a good-other and a (insert slur of choice here) doesn’t have much to do with whether they are racist.

Little sensitive round here, eh? :uhhuh: Again I hold out little hope for an honest discussion in this format. Frankly, I think most white Americans (and probably many Americans of other races/ethnicities) are unable to give a fair look at the situation – especially our own roles in it.

Maybe instead of official reparations, people could pay an on the spot five dollar fine for such behavior. I’m sure all the banks facing lawsuits over the legitimacy of their slave-profits would find that to be another great compromise as well.

I sometimes wonder how I can combat that fear of ‘others’ that sometimes surfaces in my mind. Despite saying that all people are basicly the same, I occassionaly catch myself (as I mentioned above) thinking totally within a racist paradigm. Shitty. Shittier yet, that I still haven’t fixed that problem…


#33

[quote=“fred smith”]
Sorry but I simply do not believe your perception of the matter is correct. These claims are taken very seriously. Perhaps, it was investigated or looked into and there was no basis for it. Unfortunately, there have been many cries of wolf, wolf, wolf about racism that are often not born out and can you believe that some people may even intentionally take advantage of them in the hopes of getting payouts?[/quote]

Okay now I’m insulted. :smiling_imp: This is not a perception of some matter, with me going home ranting and raving that I didn’t get my way and that whitey was out to get me.:unamused: The woman who informed me of past incidents was well up in the chain of comand and had transferred to the Chicago area for grad school. Second, my claim was not taken seriously as I had documentation for the incidents involving my boss as well as witnesses. I went through the chain of command as the company requested us to do should we have such a problem. Supplied them with all the necessary information to have a strong case. I heard only once back from them, saying that they had received my letter and that they would look into the matter. Never heard from them again. I may have my gripes and bitching about race and race matters and discrimination, but if I’m gonna make a point about complaining about it, I am going to make sure that it is substancial and legit. I think the whole circus with Ms. Anita Hill(I know she was sexual but work with the example) was a good example of having your shit together when you make charges.[/quote]

[quote=“fred smith”]
Then vote Republican.[/quote]

:noway:


#34

What’s everyone got against lederhosen?


#35

Nothing against lederhosen and I even used to own one of those dark green wool cloak things whose name in German totally escapes me at this point.


#36

I’m curious as to why SB and Fred Smith like to think that I haven’t and don’t vote republican? Have you got a secret access to my past voting records? :noway: :smiley:

Namahottie wrote:

SB wrote:

No, Im not a little sensitive about it. But I do tend to get blasted for bring it out into the open, just like when I used to mock my lack of sex life. An occational poster or two saw it as a moment for them to take personal jabs at me.:unamused: in a passive aggressive way. Truth be told, I’m not gonna post anything on this board that I wouldn’t have the courage to discuss in person…

Namahottie wrote:

SB wrote:

[quote]Maybe instead of official reparations, people could pay an on the spot five dollar fine for such behavior. I’m sure all the banks facing lawsuits over the legitimacy of their slave-profits would find that to be another great compromise as well.

I sometimes wonder how I can combat that fear of ‘others’ that sometimes surfaces in my mind. Despite saying that all people are basicly the same, I occassionaly catch myself (as I mentioned above) thinking totally within a racist paradigm. Shitty. Shittier yet, that I still haven’t fixed that problem…[/quote]That’s a very honest realization and I think we all have exprienced that. To be honest, racism and using other’s disvantages have been breeded in all cultures. Within American culture, as ‘minority’:roll: I notice that it’s a perfect way to enable people to maintain their power, their excuses for why their life is the way it is, and as a means to make money…


#37

The problem as I se it wtih all you Amecriacns is that you have to split everything up into races, except the human race which most of you seem not to fit in with.

Perhaps if you just started thingking of youselves as just americans you could get past your colour blindness and work together more harmoniously.

Personally I’m not racist, I hate everybody equally :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:


#38

[quote=“Satellite TV”] if you just started thingking of youselves as just Americans you could get past your colour blindness and work together more harmoniously.
[/quote]Yea I think about that often, especially when I turn on the TV, go into a department store, go thru customs, when I go to a nightclub, apply for a job, etc… Ahh, but what would America be like without conflict!!! Oppps, it would be peaceful and a living example of its Bill of Rights that we are trying to force down everyone’s thoats. :unamused:


#39

Good discussion Namma, Fred and others. I think One of the arguments regarding black incarceration rate has to do with the disproportionate way justice is meted out. Do blacks commit more crime therefore the higher percentage of blacks in prison? Or does law enforcement focus disproportionately on blacks rather than enforcing law more equally among races and communities (ethnic, geographic), hence the higher percentage of blacks incarcerated (& on death row)?

I’m not sure I care a whole lot about the guy (black or white) who just got busted for growing his own bud in the basement for personal use. But, the folks who are responsible for the collapse of Enron, Arthur Andersen, Worldcom, etc. - we’re talking about thousands of people who lost jobs, and benefits and retirement income - why are people like Kenneth Lay still walking around free?

Surely, the “white” collar crime in this example caused far more damage than someone incarcerated for a “typical ghetto” crime?

Bodo


#40

[quote=“s.b.”]

Little sensitive round here, eh? :uhhuh: Again I hold out little hope for an honest discussion in this format. Frankly, I think most white Americans (and probably many Americans of other races/ethnicities) are unable to give a fair look at the situation – especially our own roles in it. [/quote]
S.B., why don’t you think we can have a dialogue here? Your comments here suggest that you are aware of the race situation, and able to be honest about it, but other folks here are unable. Why do you think that?

Bodo