Good grief. I thought people stopped talking like this sometime around 1920.
Once you start dicing the human race into, um, races, one has to acknowledge that one race (=category) might in fact be superior to another - in fact it’s inevitable that they will be, at least on some dimensions if not on others.
Now, if Kenyans are superior at running while Swedes are better at, uh, being blond, then no real harm done. In the worst case, gene pools and cultures are fairly malleable (in theory at least), so serious genetic or cultural deficiencies might be rectified in time. So that idea isn’t inherently problematic. However, you seem to be arguing that:
there is something inherent and unchangeable (possibly just their pale skin and handsome Caucasian features) in the category we’ll call “white people”, and it makes them somehow immune to racism;
non-white people can only be xenophobic but not racist because non-white people would NEVER consider themselves superior to white people … implying that they actually recognise white people as objectively superior.
Now possibly you’ll have a new set of hairs to split, but that’s pretty much the same argument deployed by people who like wearing pointy white hats and starting impromptu bonfires.
I’m not saying that Caucasians are immune to racism. I’m saying that Caucasians are highly unlikely to be subjected to institutional racism based on their skin color. What people complain about on here all the time, such as Apple News’ wide coverage of foreign English teachers’ dumbass behaviours, is not racially-charged.
I never said that. Again, I’m talking about systematic and institutional racism here, which is based on power and history. I’m not trying to downplay you guys’ past bad experience here or in whichever Asian country, I’m saying that it is impossible that your history would be marginalised at school here (as world history is extremely eurocentric), or that you’d feel dangerous in front of a local cop because your skin is white. If you do feel uneasy, unwelcomed, or that this environment is hostile to you, it would be because you are a foreigner. Why? Because Western countries (therefore the majority in those countries) have the power.
I guess what I’m saying is that reverse racism doesn’t exist. And not just in America, but elsewhere as well, even when you’re the minority in said jurisdiction. It might change in the future, like if America goes down hard, but for now, and in the foreseeable future, it’s gonna stay that way.
P.S. I’m not saying that Taiwanese people aren’t racist because most are, very.
Reddit used to have several subreddits like “Chimpire,” which showed black people engaged in stereotypically awful or low-class behavior. These subreddits were eventually banned as racist. Was this correct?
I’m genuinely trying to understand your POV here, but I honestly don’t get it. The centre of global civilisation 2000 years ago was Africa. 1000 years ago it was China and the Middle East. Meanwhile, Europeans (aka White People) were a violent, uncivilized bunch of monkeys who, when they weren’t busy shooting themselves in the foot, were endlessly being invaded by non-white people with superior military skills. Does power have some sort of expiry date?
Except my skin isn’t white. I’m 50% an oppressed ex-colonial minority and 50% colonial oppressor, so I’m not really sure how I slot into your hierarchy of victims and perpetrators. I have certainly felt, on very rare occasions, that people are judging me on my skin colour alone. 99.999% of my lifetime interactions with others have not (as far as I know) been hopelessly besmirched by racist preconceptions.
Are you serious? European history is eurocentric. Would you expect anything else? If you go to China, any random stranger will tell you about their 5000 years of history. If you go to Japan, you’ll get a very Japan-centric view of history. Most likely if you go to the Comoros Islands you’ll encounter something rather similar. People are just like that.
What sort of power are we talking about here? Power to do what exactly? I’m just imagining, say, a white Belgian getting thrown in a Thai jail for drug smuggling. Belgians are powerful because they’re white, so presumably we’d expect to see Belgian Special Forces turning up to bust their fellow white man out of the foreign devil’s jail?
More importantly, how does this power arise via the magic of white skin? And is there a NIST standardized test for whiteness, so that we can determine who is powerful and who isn’t?
I know you are. The idea of “reverse” racism is mindbending in itself, but it’s your rationale for that belief that I’m arguing about, not the belief.
You just contradicted your entire first paragraph (Taiwanese people are not white, ergo don’t have the power that Western nationals do, ergo can’t possibly be racist). Aside from that, I don’t think it’s true. Some Taiwanese people are racist. Some are very racist. Some are a bit racist. Most, in my experience, aren’t racist very much at all.
You, sir, are a gentleman, even if you are also a bizarre cartoon cow with headless parents.
Hey Gain, consider this scenario; I can tell the difference between a Taiwanese accent and a Chinese accent because I’ve been here long enough. I feel passionately defensive for my fellow Taiwan resident. So, maybe I’ll have a tourettes moment on a hot, busy day when some Chinese tourist behaves less than polite or considerate in front of me. Now, take a look back at FOREIGN ENGLISH SCUMBAG ENGLISH TEACHER(I love how this is used as a negative descriptor) who pointed to the ceiling with the wrong finger and shouted “F the Chinese”. Instead of saying “Hey! that FESET is on our side!”, Taiwanese bigots instantly took offense to him and his actions saying, “We’re not Chinese! boohoo”. That’s ignorance.
I suspect you would get different results depending on which island you visited and when (before or after independence from France). I wonder what ratio of Eurocentrism to Islamocentrism to Afrocentrism they have…
Like the time about twenty years ago when those Aussies raided a Laotian jail to rescue their comptariots the alleged gem smugglers… oh, except they didn’t actually. But the lady wrote in her memoir that they almost did.
I’m talking about now. Since the Industrial Revolution, the West has been in power. You’re just playing dumb if you pretend to not know.
I’m not saying that white people are the oppressors and non-whites are the oppressed. I’m talking about the power balance.
Of course Chinese or Japanese history won’t be Eurocentric. I’m talking about world history. 99% of the world history curriculum in Taiwan is about the West. From Greece, Roman Empire, Middle Ages, the Crusades, Protestant Reform, Thirty Years’ War, Industrial Revolution, French Revolution, Enlightenment, American Independence, Scramble of Africa, th World Wars, the Cold War etc. There were even chapters about the Wars of the Roses and the Reform Acts in Britain, which have about as much to do with Taiwan as Mars does. Why? Because world history is eurocentric (and for a long while, Britain was the centre of the centre). Wherever you go, you’d find the same stuff in their middle and high school.
That is not institutional. If Belgians, as a group of people, have a higher incarceration rate in Thailand, then you can call them victims of racism.
Racist to aborigines and SE Asians. Not to Caucasians.
Isn’t positive discrimination also racism. I wouldn’t want anyone to treat me more nicely if I was Caucasian. It would make me feel unaccepted. Its better than being treated worse, but surely equal is best, meaning being judged on character not skin color.
“The West” (whatever that is) hasn’t been “in power” for at least 30 years. Certainly there are countries which are weak and dysfunctional and get pushed around by others, but that’s usually a matter of deliberate choice: they have ruling classes that are prepared to trade off global prestige for personal power and wealth. The global power balance between states (institutions) is far more nuanced than you suggest. Even if we take your assertion at face value, it rather implies that 30 years from now, when the Chinese are “in power”, it will be impossible for Chinese people to experience racism, and that only White People can ever be victims of oppression.
Well, I was trying to distill 20 centuries of global history into a couple of sentences, so I may have missed out a few details. I was really just pointing out that The White Man’s Burden has been and gone. Although the Industrial Revolution was unique, the couple of centuries of Western dominance was fundamentally just another episode of Game of Thrones, and much shorter than the rise and decline of other historical empires presided over (mostly) by non-white people.
I’m trying to follow you here, honest. You’re equating racism with the human (animal?) propensity to make the most of whatever advantage they might have other others?
Seems like a bit of a circular definition to me. Kids in “The World” are taught a version of history propagated by The West … apart from lots of countries where they’re not, but those countries don’t count as “The World”.
A lot of important stuff happened in Europe during the 20th Century, so inevitably other countries study what happened. Important stuff happened in Asia during (roughly) 1950-1970, and we spent way more time on that in history at school than we did on the War of the Roses (which I can remember nothing about). I think maybe you just have a selective memory of your schooldays.
In a sense I agree with you. A lot of Western memes have found currency in other societies, and that’s not necessarily a good thing. However I don’t think this boils down to power balance. People adopt foreign ideas if they achieve desirable (local) goals, not because they think the foreigners are inherently superior beings who should be slavishly copied.
I think maybe I see where you’re coming from. You’re not railing against racism per se but against the specific case where the State creates laws, bylaws, or a cultural theme that demonizes certain races?
What’s your opinion of Malaysia?
Yeah, I get that. And to an extent you’re right - immigration rules are different depending on the country of your birth. But again there’s a bit of subtlety there. For one thing, every country on the planet has the same approach to immigration; the rules and country-lists change, but basically the birth lottery affects where you can go and what you can do there. The rules are usually a caricature painted on the top of some underlying reality: Pakistanis do tend to bring boatloads of illiterate family members over to the UK; Filipinas do tend to go AWOL and work as prostitutes. Not all, not even a large minority, but enough to cause headaches for penpushers. You could argue over why that happens, but the immigration authorities are merely charged with controlling it, not with fixing the social conditions (in some foreign country) that give rise to it.
As regards the ordinary man in the street (as opposed to Taiwanese Institutions) I won’t deny that S.E.Asians as an amorphous group are looked down upon. However Taiwanese people as individuals respond to S.E.Asians as individuals, in the usual human way; that is, they quickly put aside any preconceptions they have when presented with objective reality. More specifically, if any given Filipino labourer turns out to be a feckless cnut, the Average Zhou will find his stereotypes reinforced and will give the guy short shrift; if, on the other hand, he turns out to be a fine human being, he’ll be treated accordingly. Usually. Not always.
I’m not just making this up. I know quite a few S.E.Asians here, and their employers. A few of the employees are asshats. A few of the employers are arrogant and entitled. The dynamics play out accordingly.
I find the concept of white privilege very offensive especially to poor economically disadvantaged people who happen to have light skin color.
What we see here is actually America’s complete nutty arms culture and then suddenly it’s turned into a conversation about race.
Just the concept that you can lump all blacks and whites into the same categories is so dumb.
Then people who just happen to be white are supposed to feel terrible because they worked hard or educated themselves and happen to live in a nice neighbourhood?
What about the ethnic Asians or other non European extraction ethnic groups ? What about immigrants to America are they supposed to feel bad because of the privilege of busting their ass?
Then also to extend these bizarre concepts outside America is even more pathetic.
The whole thing has almost become a parody of itself in the US and Canada. What started as a discussion about the inequality in races has now shut down any discussion about racism in general and turned into … I don’t even know what to call it.
The reality is, calling it whatever you want, there is systemic racism in Asia. Even if it is towards “foreigners”, this is a defacto racism, in that it boils down to fear of “the Other”, that which is not our Race. This is hard wired , and worse, it is law in most Asian countries. Taiwan is one of the more liberal countries in this regard, and is slowly changing its laws to allow foreigners to live here longer, and as more than just a worker, in whatever form that may be.
And this has its effects. The foreign communities barely exist as a long term entity in Taiwan (though this is slowly changing), and in general display the fear of Authority and fear of challenging that Authority that is generally present in first generation immigrants in the United States and Canada. Why is there no group to fight for the rights of Foreigners in Taiwan that is really organized and effective? At this point the fear of losing their status as residents (which has yet to be really challenged), motivates most to just keep their heads down and work, and hopefully not be noticed by anyone in Power.
I just have a hope in the future that this can and will change, and that Taiwan can continue to be a forerunner in this regard.
Take note, everyone! Comrade Finsky has made his prediction for The Big One: 2048!
(I’m not arguing, just trying to keep score.)
A lot of important stuff happened in Europe during the 20th Century, so inevitably other countries study what happened. Important stuff happened in Asia during (roughly) 1950-1970, and we spent way more time on that in history at school than we did on the War of the Roses (which I can remember nothing about). I think maybe you just have a selective memory of your schooldays.
Curricula can vary considerably, even within the same country. Ask someone who grew up in the southern US in the 20th century (I’m not sure how much it’s changed now) to compare notes with someone from a “Yankee” state regarding the Civil War. One will probably recall a textbook that waxed poetic about centralism vs. states’ rights and so on, with literally one sentence mentioning slavery. The other will probably recall a textbook with the narrative that seems to have become dominant outside the US, i.e. that it was all about slavery. (I don’t want to start an argument about that topic – just commenting on Finno’s comment.)
People adopt foreign ideas if they achieve desirable (local) goals, not because they think the foreigners are inherently superior beings who should be slavishly copied.
It depends. Sometimes people do think that way (slavish copying), sometimes not. Nowadays not so much, compared to when the technology imbalance was more pronounced.
It also happens the other way around: foreigners can “go native” by taking “when in Rome” to extremes, or they can live in foreign bubbles, or they can take a more moderate approach. Going native may be rationalized with “things are so simple here ergo they’re better” or with “things are so advanced here ergo they’re better”. West, East, North or South, it can happen.
For one thing, every country on the planet has the same approach to immigration; the rules and country-lists change, but basically the birth lottery affects where you can go and what you can do there.
Um, no, not really. I mean, yes you see different rules for different nationalities, but the supposed purpose of immigration varies greatly, and in a country with a large bureaucracy (which is basically every medium to large country now), you may see one hand not co-ordinating very well with the other.
There are two problems, though, with saying it’s 100% about nationality and 0% about race:
Many (most?) countries use jus sanguinis ergo nationality tends to correlate with race (without splitting hairs over the definition of race itself).
Some countries have special race-based rules in addition to the nationality-based rules, e.g. if you are legally 100% foreign yet still of local (genetic) heritage, you are special.
Now of course this can be confusing when you have official recognition of ethnic minorities who are also ethnic majorities in other countries, and even more confusing when you have a government that still theoretically claims Mongolia but at some point stopped recognizing Mongolians as its own people… It’s a political issue, but is it not also a racial issue?
And it’s not just a Chinese thing:
To give a relatively extreme example:
Sierra Leone
The African-American actor Isaiah Washington, a titled chief of the Mende people, became the first member of the African diaspora to receive the citizenship of a modern African state due to a genetic test when he took Sierra Leonean citizenship in 2010. A test had previously ascertained that he was of Mende descent, and this was subsequently used by the Sierra Leonean authorities as a basis for him to be made a citizen of the country. Although no-one else has achieved the same feat in the time since, it is now legally possible to do so thanks to the precedent set by Mr. Washington’s case.
(I’m not arguing that this is good or bad, just pointing out that it is literally a genetic test.)
What’s your opinion of Malaysia?
I hope no-one thinks I’m a horrible person just because I’m breaking out the popcorn now.
I always found the concept of the “Asian community” weird. Maybe it’s something 2nd generations can get into when they see themselves as “Asian” born American. I also hate clubs based on race…a few people in my college who were in the Asian club gave me a hard time for being a banana because I would t hang out for join them. I just don’t see the purpose of clubs like that. I don’t see how I would be grouped in with Philippinos, Thai, malay, Japanese etc people. I guess we all like rice…but that’s about it. I don’t think I would ever vote for a candidate because they were Asian.
