[quote=“ironlady”]
And the other scary thing was, this little girl (well, in her early 30s, probably) was spouting the straight Commie party line. I think that after actually meeting a couple of us who live in Taiwan, maybe she’ll think before pressing the missile button, but her views on Taiwan were scary as well. [/quote]
I was having dinner with some younger employees here in Dongguan the other day and the subject of Taiwan’s presidential election came up. While pretty much all of them dislike CSB, most of them were quite curious about the election. They all know me pretty well and are comfortable talking to me, and strangely for mainlanders, asked me what I thought of the election since I was the only one around who has actually been to Taiwan. I avoided giving them opinions and just tried to explain election politics in Taiwan and why people might vote for either candidate. Finally, though, they insisted that I tell them who I would vote for if I were a “Taiwan Tongbao.” I told them that I would vote for Lian Zhan for President to avoid war but that I would only vote DPP in the next legislative election so as to restrain the Blues (oh, by the way, they didn’t even know what the hell 藍軍 is). I said that I imagined that quite a few Taiwanese people thought this way.
There was one young guy present who is extremely ideological. I could see that he was about to blow a gasket the whole time we were talking, but I continued because I knew it really pissed him off. He finally said that Taiwanese people shouldn’t vote at all because both Lian Zhan and CSB are scum. In his mind, Taiwanese people just sit at home and wait to be “liberated.” He also bitched at the others for talking to me about Taiwan because I’m a foreigner. It made no difference in his mind that I said I would vote for the relatively mainland friendly candidate; he thought it was blasphemous that I had even dared to say anything about Taiwan. I obviously knew nothing about Taiwan because I am not Chinese. It always comes back to that. Concerning things like Taiwan, mainlanders seem to fall into just two categories. Some are willing and able to have a rational discussion, and although they may not agree with you, they usually don’t just repeat the party line; their opinions vary a good deal. Most of these people are pretty tolerant of other opinions. The other type won’t even have a discussion or argument with you about Taiwan. They won’t explain any reasoning behind their (or I should say the party’s) opinions. The response is just “you are a foreigner and you have no right to express any opinion about Taiwan; shut the fuck up.” It just burns them up when they realize that they don’t know dick about Taiwan and that a foreigner could know more. I love to see them get so pissed off.
Many people i’ve met (Chinese, but also other kinds of people outside N.America) have a fear of blacks that doesn’t stem from personal experience. When pressed on the issue, it usually comes out that they’ve never even met a black person, but what they saw on TV led them to believe that black people are all from the ghetto, thuggish, crack-smoking, violent, loud, rapper-wannabe, gold-chain wearing, with big “scary” afro, pimps with guns and fire on pcp and extremely racist. to be sure, they exist, and i’ve seen some.
on the other hand, i’ve seen quite a few mainland and taiwanese post-grad students in america being harassed while commuting on trains, buses, walking around (slanty eye motion, chink names). Even if these students have cool black classmates or professors, what do you think they will remember rightly or wrongly.
[quote=“Jive Turkey”]
There was one young guy present who is extremely ideological. I could see that he was about to blow a gasket the whole time we were talking, but I continued because I knew it really pissed him off. He finally said that Taiwanese people shouldn’t vote at all because both Lian Zhan and CSB are scum. In his mind, Taiwanese people just sit at home and wait to be “liberated.” He also bitched at the others for talking to me about Taiwan because I’m a foreigner. It made no difference in his mind that I said I would vote for the relatively mainland friendly candidate; he thought it was blasphemous that I had even dared to say anything about Taiwan. I obviously knew nothing about Taiwan because I am not Chinese. It always comes back to that. Concerning things like Taiwan, mainlanders seem to fall into just two categories. Some are willing and able to have a rational discussion, and although they may not agree with you, they usually don’t just repeat the party line; their opinions vary a good deal. Most of these people are pretty tolerant of other opinions. The other type won’t even have a discussion or argument with you about Taiwan. They won’t explain any reasoning behind their (or I should say the party’s) opinions. The response is just “you are a foreigner and you have no right to express any opinion about Taiwan; shut the fuck up.” It just burns them up when they realize that they don’t know dick about Taiwan and that a foreigner could know more. I love to see them get so pissed off.[/quote]
Your story reminds me of a situation I encountered when I was in law school from '96 to '99. My law school class had one student from China, and one student from Taiwan. One day during the first week, a professor announced that the seats we were sitting in would be our seats for every class during the entire first year. It just so happened that the Chinese student and the Taiwanese student were sitting next to each other that day and, thus, would be sitting in those seats for the entire year.
Because I had lived in Taiwan from '89 to '96, spoke Chinese and had spent time in China, I became friends with both students. Well, it didn’t take long before they started arguing about Taiwan. Eventually, they stopped speaking to each other, which must have made sitting next to each other in every class for an entire year extremely uncomfortable.
The Chinese student and I often played tennis together, and I invited him to my parent’s home on a few occasions. One day, he asked me about my thoughts on Taiwan. Trying to be diplomatic, I said that this was an issue between the peoples of Taiwan and China and that I only wanted peace for all. To my surprise, that was not a good enough answer for him. His position was that it was solely a decision for China, that Taiwan belonged to China and the people in Taiwan have no say on this issue whatsoever. He always came across as a mild mannered and very polite guy. But, on this issue, he was like a rabid dog. His eyes and voice filled with anger.
I tried to change the subject, but he would not let up. He would not be satisfied until I agreed that Taiwan belonged to China and only the Chinese government had any say in this matter. Eventually our friendship pretty much came to an end because he would simply not drop the subject. The Taiwanese student was pro-independence and she told me that she was willing to stay friends with the Chinese student. But, she said it became impossible for her to even exchange a simple greeting with him because he would always want to argue about Taiwan.
This is precisely why I don’t try to be too PC or diplomatic with them anymore. They basically want you to surrender and agree with everything they have to say about Taiwan. I am not pro-independence (not that my opinion really matters) and I think that in the distant future, it will be in the interests of Taiwan to somehow be part of a China. I say “a China” because the China that Beijing would like to shove down HK and Taiwan’s throats is just not acceptable.
If mainlanders bother to ask me, and they usually don’t, then I let fly. They asked, so I won’t hold back. I tell them that I think Taiwan is part of China, but not the PRC. I tell them that unification in the future may be a good thing, but that it is entirely up to the Taiwanese because it would potentially have far more effect on their lives than on the lives of mainlanders. Then I tell them that even though I personally don’t support independence, above everything I am for the rule of law and self determination. If a majority of Taiwanese are consistently in favour of independence, they are willing to fight for it and they go through consitutional/legal processes to declare indpendence, then I would accept it. If the Taiwanese are willing to make sacrifices to build a civil society seperate from the mainland, then I’d be in favor of my country backing them up and bombing the shit out of China if necessary. I’ve only told a few mainlanders this. It leaves them pretty damn stunned. They are so used to bullying people about Taiwan and hearing the same govt’ propaganda that they don’t know how to respond when someone strongly disagrees with them and makes a good argument against their position. If they can’t be friends with me after knowing my views, then fuck’em. I think foreigners on the mainland have blown sunshine up their asses about Taiwan for far too long. I’ll be diplomatic when stating my opinions, but I won’t bend over backwards to avoid offending their sensitivities if they ask me what I think. It’s not like I’ve gone out of my way to piss them off.
I eventually told the Chinese guy my true thoughts on the Taiwan/China issue, which was the final blow to our friendship. I kept trying to get him to just forget the subject, take a don’t ask - don’t tell approach. But, his insistence wore me down and I finally told him that Tawian should be whatever Taiwan wants to be. Big no-no.
He was such a bright guy too, did really well in law school, always made insightful comments in class and thought the US Constitution was a great document. He even agreed to poke fun at China one time. We went to a Halloween party once where he dressed up as a Chinese judge and I went as a Chinese prisoner. He executed me with a shot to the back of the head a bunch of times during the party, which was his idea, and seemed to get a kick out of the gag.
However, when it came to Taiwan, he took a hardline stance.
[quote=“smerf”]
He was such a bright guy too, did really well in law school, always made insightful comments in class and thought the US Constitution was a great document. He even agreed to poke fun at China one time. We went to a Halloween party once where he dressed up as a Chinese judge and I went as a Chinese prisoner. He executed me with a shot to the back of the head a bunch of times during the party, which was his idea, and seemed to get a kick out of the gag.
However, when it came to Taiwan, he took a hardline stance.[/quote]
Your story and many others show just how good a tool the Taiwan issue is for Beijing. They can’t use communism to rally the masses anymore. However, nationalism and especially the Taiwan issue never fails as a tool for maintaining support for the party. I’ve known some extremely liberal, anti-government people in both HK and the mainland who opposed the CCP and often complained about how Chinese people are to nationalistic. However, they were completely nationalistic and narrow minded about Taiwan and were the same as all the others: Taiwan must unify, fuck off USA. They didn’t see the contradicition. Sometimes I think they’re abosolutely fucking hopeless.
------later------
[I must add, though, that there is a significant number of mainlanders who couldn’t care less about Taiwan. Some of them will come right out and say that if they were Taiwanese, they would vote for CSB and would never unify. Some of these people are party members. However, you will never hear a person say something like this unless you have gotten to know them really well.]
My favorite argument from him on this issue was his idea that the reason I opposed China/Taiwan unification was because I was afraid that a united China would be too strong and would dominate the US.
I laughed at that one since I never opposed Taiwan becoming a part of China so long as that was what Taiwan wanted (meaning a significant majority of the people here).
He refused to see the distinction between opposing unification and supporting Taiwan self-determination.
I agree with Jive Turkey: nationalism/jingoism/xenophobia is an easy way to divert attention from domestic problems in any country.
an added problem/issue for china and chinese is the historical embarassment of china by foreign powers and foreign intervention in chinese affairs. this will be a sticking point for a long time to come, and many chinese will be too proud or quick to denounce any foreigner opinion for this reason. of course, this does not stop some of them from criticizing/commenting on other countries in turn.