Racism? Who knows?

[Rascal]

@fred

Yes, those facts were wrong so yes I was wrong but I admitted it as soon as you brought it to my attention no? And of the facts that I gave you, only two were in fact wrong. I revised Germany from 64.5 percent of Saddam’s wmds to 50 percent but all the other countries’ figures remained the same. AND the only reason that I did not have the accurate figure was because the graph was cut off and it looked like Germany extended around to the other side for plus 14.5 percent. AND I had to say that the figure was ONLY for missiles, chemical weapons equipment and nuclear wmds. I had to take out bioweapons, which was the smallest and least significant aspect of Saddam’s arsenal at that time and one that was NEVER used. How, however, does that alter my main assertion that Germany not the US was the main supplier of Saddam’s arsenal? How does it change the fact that the US was a mere 3.5 percent (neglible I said) especially given that most of this was documented as supercomputers while Germany’s supply of wmds was documented to be substantially more related to direct wmds use and production?

I can’t answer those questions because I do not disagree with the implied answer.
I do however maintain the point that the US was one of the suppliers, too. You earlier said it wasn’t, now you admit but say it’s neglible. Doesn’t change the fact though that the US did supply some, even it was much less than Germany.

You were also wrong on the subject of e.g. ‘lax security’ in the other thread and a few others, most to which you avoided responding/answering/admitting to it, so stop pretending the only thing you admitted to (above WMD %) was the only issue you were wrong about.

No actually I have to say that for the biker post, that one was not DIRECTLY mirrored on your posts Rascal, but more “inspired” by them. I mean every time we have something involving prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib you are there demanding that America be held accountable but you skip over my posts regarding German abuse of asylum seekers and immigrants in silence because you are “not interested in discussing Germany” and “I do not need to tell you the reasons why.” Also, why is it that you never have any positive suggestions for American foreign policy?

How do the incidents at Abu Ghraib possibly compare to the biker incident? Is that the best you can do?

Thanks for proving Tigerman wrong on this though, much appreciated.

And then, who gets accused of racism on this forum? Me? Why? You have been at this game far longer than I have. AND given that I have repeatedly admitted that my sole reason for bashing the Germans and French is to counter constant American bashing by posters like you, what is your reason for bashing America? You started it. You didn’t stop it. You complain that German bashing is insulting. Why cannot you see that what is good for one is good for the other? What is this obsession you have with America? Did some American GI disrespect you while stationed in Germany? This pathological hatred and obsession you have seems to me to fall under the classic definition of racism. This obsessive need to strike down and villify and degrade the object of your hatred. I am bewildered, why oh why?

You may want to consult Tigerman on this, none of the definitions (of racism) applies to what you accuse me of, thus I cannot be a racist for that.

And once again: go on and bash Germany, but do it on-topic - not just because I happen to participate in some other threads that are on the subject of the US.
The fact stand: I never posted to attack you or Tigerman based on your nationality, you did towards me. I can’t stop you from doing so and that by itself is not racist but if you would not take criticism of the US so personally and make it a personal issue (against me) then perhaps the discussions would be less hostile.
And as long as there is someone that responds I will do the same to continue the argument, so do not blame me alone for my active participation.

BTW: Do you have a thing for American GIs? You mentioned them on several occassions … (just curious )

[quote=“fred”]
I close by once again pointing to your own words Rascal:

[quote=“Rascal”]
That said stating negative information, that was/is mostly based on true facts, regardless of quantity, does not qualify as racism -

[quote=“fred”]
Hmmm strange, I thought that was what I was doing with regard to German and French policies. Are you saying this is okay now Rascal? Thank you. End of discussion.[/quote][/quote][/quote]
But I did not call you racist for the quantities of posts, thus my agreement that the quantities of your posts do not make you a racist does not prove you aren’t one, which is/was based on a different argument.

So how about you stop putting words into my mouth, because you just continue to provide prove of your distortions and that you can’t discuss things fairly.

This kind of response of yours is typical but I am sure you can find a way to blame it on me: your rant and questions are mostly off-topic and I don’t think it’s necessary to continue the discussion about WMD etc. here, we can do so at other places (as we did before). But then I mostly agreed, so why do you still see it as necessary to repeat this over and over and, by addressing those questions at me, pretending I disagree?

@MT

Fred, I’m not bashing anyone. I’m asking valid questions about race and racism. Please read more carefully and respond.

Reading carefully and responding to an argument does not seem to be the strength of fred and Tigerman.

[fred_smith]

Mother Theresa wrote: [quote]“Damn niggas are all a bunch of criminals on drugs and welfare. We should send them back to Africa.” [/quote]

Do you really expect me to respond to this bashing of blacks Mother Theresa? I know that you are probably “only joking” and don’t mean “any offense” but I really do not see how this is something that I feel like responding to. Sorry, argue about this with someone else. I do not care whether you feel blacks are criminals and drug abusers that need to be sent back to Africa.

Please do not ask me to get involved in this again. It is not a worthy topic in my opinion.

[Traveller]

@fred smith

Mother Theresa wrote: [quote]“Damn niggas are all a bunch of criminals on drugs and welfare. We should send them back to Africa.”

Do you really expect me to respond to this bashing of blacks Mother Theresa? I know that you are probably “only joking” and don’t mean “any offense” but I really do not see how this is something that I feel like responding to. Sorry, argue about this with someone else. I do not care whether you feel blacks are criminals and drug abusers that need to be sent back to Africa.

Please do not ask me to get involved in this again. It is not a worthy topic in my opinion.[/quote]

Fred, calm down, Mt is using htis an example to discuss what is or is not racist. Whilst the example itself is unsavoury, it is valid to the debate.

[Mother_Theresa]

@fred smith

Mother Theresa wrote: [quote]“Damn niggas are all a bunch of criminals on drugs and welfare. We should send them back to Africa.”

Do you really expect me to respond to this bashing of blacks Mother Theresa? I know that you are probably “only joking” and don’t mean “any offense” but I really do not see how this is something that I feel like responding to. Sorry, argue about this with someone else. I do not care whether you feel blacks are criminals and drug abusers that need to be sent back to Africa.

Please do not ask me to get involved in this again. It is not a worthy topic in my opinion.[/quote]

Are you being deliberately obtuse Fred???

I simply asked whether you believe that statement is “racist.” Judging from your repeated refusal to answer, I assume you do consider it to be racist. Fine, we all agree on that.

Next question. Is the above statement racist because it is a derogatory statement based on a person’s race?

If so, how many races are there? What are they?

Once you get over your feigned outrage, settle down and consider the questions you may see why one could consider insults about all Germanic peoples to be racist.

Will you please try to answer some of the valid questions now, rather than continuing with your obfuscutory tactics. Thanks.

[fred_smith]

I will assume that you are arguing in good faith and will therefore make the attempt to address your concern.

Actually, I do not think that comments made against Germans can be considered “racist,” though they certainly can be considered “discriminatory,” “prejudiced” or “insulting.” Germans are not a race. But I take your point.

I believe the point you want to lead to is that by mentioning Germany’s Nazi past that somehow I am discriminating against or insulting Germans. I disagree. Numerous posters have brought up American involvement in the Philippines, wars against Native Americans, treatment of blacks, intervention in Central America, etc. etc. to prove points about America. If this is no loner acceptable to you and your friends, then I would be happy to cease and desist from making any further such references to Germany’s past. But will you? Did I start referring to Germany’s Nazi past first or did you and other posters start referring to American “evils” over the centuries first?

Also, you believe that as an American, you have the right to criticize and insult American presidents and American actions. Given that I am German despite my American citizenship, do I not have the same right to question my country of origin in much the same way you do about America? I mean how is it acceptable for you but not for me?

I see lots of attempts on this forum to silence those who go on the offensive regarding certain posters and their endless diatribes against America. Are you suggesting that I and others must sit back and let posters like you and Rascal bash away at America and its policies while restraining ourselves to merely defending America and its policies? Why cannot we compare America and its policies to other countries, especially those of the most virulent and vocal posters whose main concern seems not to be “pre-emptive policies” or “Iraqi civilians killed” but only those where America is involved. Do you see my point?

[Traveller]

@fred smith

Also, you believe that as an American, you have the right to criticize and insult American presidents and American actions. Given that I am German despite my American citizenship, do I not have the same right to question my country of origin in much the same way you do about America? I mean how is it acceptable for you but not for me?

Fred, do you hold, or have ever held German nationality, if not then please retract your claim of being German as it is false. You may have german ancestry, even lived there for a while, but that does not make you german, sorry.

@fred smith

Are you suggesting that I and others must sit back and let posters like you and Rascal bash away at America and its policies while restraining ourselves to merely defending America and its policies?

Fred, who has ever said that you cannot go on the offensive, i believe no one has, so stop making things up. All that has been said is that it should be done in separate threads, not trying to hijack the current thread. Get my point?
If sufficient people wish to dabate it then they will post, if not and you do not like this then the choice to continue posting in a forum you deem so anti US is yours to consider.

[fred_smith]

I disagree. I think that when someone ONLY attacks America and all the while ignoring convincing arguments that show that other nations are equally or far more culpable, then it applies.

Rascal:

What aspect of lax security were you talking about? I do not recall having “lost out” on that one to you, but I do recall sort of hashing your butt on the question of German media bias, remember? hee hee hee

But anyway, enough, Rascal thinks that my one post on the Lance Armstrong biking incident was insulting. Therefore I too agree that it should be flamed and it was. This is the purpose of the flame forum. I accept the moderator’s decision on this and while I do not agree with the premise that we must leave Germany off the table in any Anti-American diatribes, I will use less provocative language, er that is I will try my best, to use less provocative language in the future when doing so. Fair?

But does this mean that the French are no longer filthy? and that I cannot call them that anymore? :s

[Traveller]

@fred smith

I disagree. I think that when someone ONLY attacks America and all the while ignoring convincing arguments that show that other nations are equally or far more culpable, then it applies.

Fred, a single mention to indicate previous precedents i think can be valid, if done as you now suggest in a less provacative manner, but incessant harping is not valid, particularly when every time the example being cited is based purely on that persons nationality.
Over the last few months i imagine i have posted in as many anti-US threads as anyone else, have you targeted me by singling out some reprehensible act in my countries past, and then used it in any thread where i post anything anti-US, NO, now why is that?

@fred smith

I accept the moderator’s decision on this and while I do not agree with the premise that we must leave Germany off the table in any Anti-American diatribes, I will use less provocative language, er that is I will try my best, to use less provocative language in the future when doing so. Fair?

I would say so, from my point of view anyway.

@fred smith

But does this mean that the French are no longer filthy? and that I cannot call them that anymore? :s

Ah, mon ami, peut etre. C’est la vie, n’est pas.

[fred_smith]

Ah but Traveller:

I know that you are British. A nation of loyal friends who have stuck by us through thick and thin. Despite your negative anti-American rants, how could I thrash the British? Absolutely not. A fine force for civilization as any I have ever seen in the world. I merely hope that America can emulate its example.

Now, Germany is a different matter. It has received nothing but benevolence and kindness from America following World War II. We have defended it, we helped reunify it despite the opposition of the FRENCH and RUSSIANS and what do we get? A good kick in the teeth. Who did Germany turn to in its moment of folly? France. The nation that wanted to turn it back to a pastural preindustrial nation and loot its people of all they were worth. I admit that Germany has behaved with much greater sense in the past year but still.

This is a nation we could have destroyed. We could have turned West Germany into a satellite and looted its art and treasure a la the Russians in East Germany. Did we? No. And what do we get for that? Open support? NO. How about an abstention in the UN security council just to signal that while they did not agree, they would not block or humiliate their friend? NO. Total opposition in connivance with the French and Russians. And in all fairness, Traveller, you don’t start these threads or push them in the same way that Rascal does. ERGO I do not feell the need to use such tactics. You usually only respond to what I post. Rascal claims to be interested in “issues” but the reality is that he is only interested so far as it affords him an opportunity to bash the US. I feel differently about using this tactic in response to his posts. It seems to be fairer somehow.

[Traveller]

@fred smith

I know that you are British. A nation of loyal friends who have stuck by us through thick and thin. Despite your negative anti-American rants, how could I thrash the British? Absolutely not. A fine force for civilization as any I have ever seen in the world. I merely hope that America can emulate its example.

Aha, finally, Fred admits to the US having covert imperialistic tendencies.

[fred_smith]

Not imperial, civilizational er if that is a word. The world is a much better place because of the British. How many other nations can you say that about?

France? Germany? Russia? Japan? Egypt? Kenya? Indonesia? Brazil? You get the idea.

I would argue though that America has done some tremendous things for the rest of the world that have been unequalled, unparalleled, but we should remember that no good deed will remain unpunished.

[Traveller]

[quote=“fred smith”]Not imperial, civilizational er if that is a word. The world is a much better place because of the British. How many other nations can you say that about?

France? Germany? Russia? Japan? Egypt? Kenya? Indonesia? Brazil? You get the idea.

I would argue though that America has done some tremendous things for the rest of the world that have been unequalled, unparalleled, but we should remember that no good deed will remain unpunished.[/quote]

Fred, the construction of the British Empire was originally based on the same principle, that also being the greatest gift given to the world in general, democracy and the rule of law.
Then as now, the proposed idea of civilisation is not necessarliy correct, maybe it is better than currently exists, maybe not.
For that kind of civilsation to work, either people have to want it, or the power concerned has to be prepared to stay for a long time to ensure it happens. I am not sure that under the current incumbent that the US is prepared to run that course, as i really do not see the ordinary Iraqi in the street being that interested. As you know from your experiences, most Arab are just not interested in general politics.

[fred_smith]

Traveller:

most Arab are just not interested in general politics

Watch these statements. We are on the you know what thread.

[Rascal]

What aspect of lax security were you talking about? I do not recall having “lost out” on that one to you, but I do recall sort of hashing your butt on the question of German media bias, remember? hee hee hee

See the thread about the lady that was upset because of a group of Arab people on her flight.
First you said something along the line of “I don’t remember the question” when I reminded you to answer, so I repeated it. You still did not respond as far as I recall.

(If you want to discuss it, please do it over here: [url=Terror in the skies again? in the skies again?[/url] )

But anyway, enough, Rascal thinks that my one post on the Lance Armstrong biking incident was insulting. Therefore I too agree that it should be flamed and it was. This is the purpose of the flame forum. I accept the moderator’s decision on this and while I do not agree with the premise that we must leave Germany off the table in any Anti-American diatribes, I will use less provocative language, er that is I will try my best, to use less provocative language in the future when doing so. Fair?

Bring it up when it’s relevant, not because of some posters nationality. That would be fair.

[Traveller]

[quote=“fred smith”]Traveller:

most Arab are just not interested in general politics

Watch these statements. We are on the you know what thread.

[/quote]

[mofangongren]

What is racism? I’d love to ask Trent Lott what he thinks these days. The Republicans probably swept him under the rug really fast because he wasn’t hiding it well enough.

Love how the Republicans have bogged themselves down trying to eliminate thousands of black voters down in Florida again. Not all black people are felons, you know…

[Traveller]

@fred smith

How about an abstention in the UN security council just to signal that while they did not agree, they would not block or humiliate their friend? NO. Total opposition…

Fred, oh please, talk about hypocritical, the US has vetoed any UNSC anti Israeli resolution for years, why did they not abstain rather than veto?

[Tigerman]

@Traveller

[quote=“fred smith”]How about an abstention in the UN security council just to signal that while they did not agree, they would not block or humiliate their friend? NO. Total opposition…

Fred, oh please, talk about hypocritical, the US has vetoed any UNSC anti Israeli resolution for years, why did they not abstain rather than veto?[/quote]

Uh… It would only be hypocritical of the US if the UNSC resolution that the US voted against was one that affected Germany’s interest as perceived by Germany.

[Traveller]

Oh look, Mr Semantics is back, despite complaining about semantics on another thread. Double standards again.

[fred_smith]

No Traveller:

Please do not drag this down to another chance to fight with the Magnificent Tigerman. I mean exactly what the Magnificent Tigerman said. If Germany’s national interests were at stake, the US veto of resolutions condemning Israel would be one thing but they did not and are therefore not relevant.

Given that the US is the primary defender and security guarantor in the Persian Gulf, please explain to me how the German action was “friendly” or even more importantly, please explain to me how the action was in Germany’s best “security interests.” It was an action taken by an overly politicized administration that included former radicals like Joschka Fischer. This is what happens when you allow these punks into office. They sabotage national interests for political grandstanding. After German-American relations deteriorated to a nullpunkt in the leadup to the invasion, the German military, business and strategic policy establishments stepped in and roped Fischer and Schroeder back to a considerable degree. That is why American and German relations are quite solid again and why Germany is no longer tailor its foreign policy so much to accommodate France. That little deluded honeymoon is now firmly over. Essentially, I would compare it to too much tequila and a wild weekend with the town slut in a cheap motel room along a deserted highway. Thank heavens Germany sobered up and went home to be a responsible citizen again.