“The bank won’t give me a credit card because I’m a foreigner…”
“When you are telling an individual, or a small business owner, that they cannot discriminate based on their own prejudices, or more importantly, their perception of how others prejudices will influence their profits, then you are stomping on the rights of that person.”
This is fun!
[quote=“ImaniOU”]If schools hired on what they perceived was going to bring in the most students, anyone who was not a female, under a size 8, and had blonde hair and blue eyes would be on the street. Thank God not all schools think like Tainan Cowboy and condone racism.[/quote]Hold it. I do NOT, read again, NOT condone racism. To say that I do is a lie.[quote=“ImaniOU”]The OP is saying we should do something about it. He is not playing couch critic and shrugging his shoulders because it doesn’t affect him like some people in Taiwan do.
There is no law against job discrimination in Taiwan. But then, there were no laws against discrimination in the US not too long ago either.
Tainan Cowboy, I’m curious of all of these blacks you know who have done well in the English school system here.[/quote]I did not say that I knew “numerous blacks who have done well in the english school system.” Read my post again, My posted words were “There are numerous blacks here on Taiwan who have done well in the English teacher system. They have succeeded in spite of what they have been presented with. They have done it by proving themselves in the classroom and in their life here. And, I think each one will tell you that it has not been an easy road.” Do you question the accuracy of this? I think this forum has several posting here both previously, currently.[quote=“ImaniOU”] I can’t think of any, and considering I’m black and know quite a few other black people here, that might be saying something. I have not done well because schools were color-blind. I was hired by my first school here simply because they were one teacher short with only three weeks to find one. I suspect that they couldn’t find anyone else who could be suckered in for the hours (especially if one did the math when calculating the pay), especially since they required teachers certified in elementary or early childhood education and I wasn’t certified nor had I taught children before being hired. I gained the respect and love of the children and parents, but not because of an expectation they had, but because it’s hard to disguise a genuine interest in teaching and in interacting with children. I still was three seconds from being fired everyday and the school didn’t hesitate to give my job to the 22-year-old skinny blonde who couldn’t manage her own classroom without the principal teaching half of her students.
I’d hardly call spending 4 months looking for a job as a teacher with nearly 6 years’ teaching experience and a few teaching-related certificates and associations under her belt as “doing well in the English teacher system”.
But considering the fact that the minute I stepped out of my former school’s shadow, I proved what I had said a few years ago - that if I left my school, I’d pretty much be leaving for good because there was very little chance that I would be able to find another job here. In the 11th hour, a good forumosan who wasn’t satisfied to just sit back and say “tough shit”, stood up for me and put in a good word to his boss. Because of him, I am able to stay here to this day. I’m glad not everyone is resigned to accept racism as being “good business practice.” I just hope that one day, should your children face the same kind of racism, that you grow a bit stronger of a backbone and actually stand up for them rather than flopping around like a jellyfish with excuses.[/quote]Quite a shitty comment. Try reading my comment a bit closer.
My comments are directed to the business aspect of “english school” operations here on Taiwan. Try dealing with this seperate item without injecting your personal experiences into it. Its not an easy thing to do for some people. You are obviously one of them. My comment was not about you. It was about the laws of Taiwan, the aspects of running a business and the rights of a business owner to hire those with the qualifications they find most advantageous to thier business.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]But I suppose “in spite of what I have been presented with”…assuming my skin color, I am still here. Despite the racism here and the laissez-faire attitude of those who could instead be involved in improving things.[/quote]So you admit that their is a racist attitude here…thats what I have said numerous times.
At least you agree with me on that.
Here’s another one.
“I can’t believe someone would run over a little girl and drive off, leaving her for dead…”
“One would do well to leave their Western ideas about PC and other noble ideas such as this on the boarding ramp when you head off to the island of Taiwan.”
Come on, throw some more at me. I’m just getting started.
Saying that racist hiring practices is good business doesn’t equal condoning racism?
Come on, Tainan. Even you have to see that you’re talking out of both sides of your ass with this one.
And as for not adding my own experience as someone who’s been subjected to this very heart of this topic is, to put it plainly, stupid.
Besides, last time I checked, racism wasn’t an objective way of looking at things.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]Saying that racist hiring practices is good business doesn’t equal condoning racism?[/quote]You appear to see what you want to see.[quote=“ImaniOU”]Come on, Tainan. Even you have to see that you’re talking out of both sides of your ass with this one.[/quote]I will not degrade into insults.
After all, this is not the “International Politics” thread.
I wish you well.
and the expression is “Talking out of both sides of your mouth”…not ass.
You mean the Taiwanese children? I don’t think they get that impression at all. This isn’t white America where black kids have had (and in some cases continue to have) white culture forced on them in their schools.
Taiwanese are immersed in their own culture. They aren’t learning mostly from white people. They are learning mostly from Chinese people. They may get some exposure to the white English teacher at a buxiban, but that’s just a drop in the bucket.
And the parents’ insistence that their kids have that white guy/girl is not mostly because they want an “intellectually superior” teacher. It’s the desire for diversity. A black teacher could give them diversity, too, but that would be African or something- not English.
Sure, it’s racism on the parts of some parents. But it isn’t passing on any sort of white superiority message as you seem to be suggesting. I think the students who aren’t privileged to get a black teacher can get as much from a white teacher without being scarred by social injustice perpetuated against black teachers.
The kids are oblivious to the managerial decisions that go into the hiring of their foreign English teacher.
I think it does. By understanding that what you’re feeling is based on irrational prejudice, you can consciously choose to make a better decision. You become less racist.
Actually, that does make you less ignorant. Not knowing that there are other things you don’t know is a form of ignorance. Knowing that is one less thing you are ignorant of. Thus, you are are automatically less ignorant. Add that to having a chance to learn more, and it makes a real difference.
Not necessarily. It could mean you are lacking in morals, or it could mean your morals are different than ImaniOU’s.
You could know all the facts. Realize that hiring a black teacher, for example, will equal to two students dropping out because of ignorant parents and a decrease in profits for the school of X amount. You would balance this against the opportunity to do social good and end up deciding that the social good would end up being negiligible and decide on the money.
Some people will make that decision out of a racist reaction. But not all. Some will make it out of a very informed, and perhaps even enlightened understanding. But still decide things on the basis of higher profits.
What, white isn’t a valid skin color? We can’t help combat racism among a homogenous Chinese society because our skin color isn’t highly contrastive?
And again, the kids aren’t aware of any censorship. They just see a teacher come in who isn’t Chinese and thinks differently than they do. Doesn’t matter if that different thinking is “white” or “black”. It just isn’t “Taiwanese”.
First, I don’t condone or excuse it. Society would be better off if there werne’t any racial practices and a school that hires blacks/Phillipinas/Indians, etc. who have native English competency are doing their society as a whole a favor. It may come at a cost, but that makes the act noble.
But since most people running businesses are not in it for the chance at nobility, I’d say:
Look back to all the people in your home country who sacrificed and made a difference through their long-suffering. Don’t give over to racism yourself, or let your heart be poisoned by the injustice you face. Hold your head up hight because you are one of the pioneers of global civil rights.
Actually, you aren’t being PC. You’re pushing your own agenda.
Honestly, I don’t really care about your individual table. I do care about people in general, and the country I live in, but your holier-than-thou because I’m the oppressed attitude comes across with exactly the opposite effect I think you would hope it to have.
I am much more sympathetic to a person who is stoic than a person who is blaming a badly going job hunt entirely on racism. I"ve heard nice things about you and I respect your ability as a teacher, but in your posts here you sound like you’re whining and passing blame. I don’t believe that’s what’s in your heart, but that’s how it sounds to me.
As for the “racist ads” and “sexist” ads where they want a female or even specify blond hair, I think that’s great. They’re honestly advertising what they want so they don’t waste your time. That makes it easier to locate schools that won’t discriminate.
[quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”]“I think companies should have the right to hire people according to race.”
“But I don’t condone racism.”
I don’t get the the jump in logic between those 2 sentences.[/quote]
I believe people have the right to be racist. I think racism is wrong, but people have the right to be wrong.
Simple enough.
This topic has so been done to death. I think TC is this year’s whipping boy, and some of you might very well be surprised that when I first joined this site under a different name, I said something very similar to what TC said about the common business practices of most buxibans, I was flayed…by many of the same people tearing TC a new ass.
Take it out on Taiwan folks, not TC.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]“The bank won’t give me a credit card because I’m a foreigner…”
“When you are telling an individual, or a small business owner, that they cannot discriminate based on their own prejudices, or more importantly, their perception of how others prejudices will influence their profits, then you are stomping on the rights of that person.”[/quote]
I support the right of the bank not to issue me a bank card. It’s their choice.
Of course, if another bank then makes money because they start issuing bank cards… well then that was a poor business decision, right?
Keep it coming ImaniOU. Just like your statement that knowing you’re ignorant doesn’t make you less ignorant.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]Here’s another one.
“I can’t believe someone would run over a little girl and drive off, leaving her for dead…”
“One would do well to leave their Western ideas about PC and other noble ideas such as this on the boarding ramp when you head off to the island of Taiwan.”[/quote]
You don’t consider valuing life to be a global concern? It’s just a Western one?
Keep up with the logic.
[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”][quote=“ImaniOU”]Here’s another one.
“I can’t believe someone would run over a little girl and drive off, leaving her for dead…”
“One would do well to leave their Western ideas about PC and other noble ideas such as this on the boarding ramp when you head off to the island of Taiwan.”[/quote]
You don’t consider valuing life to be a global concern? It’s just a Western one?
Keep up with the logic.[/quote]
wow! This IS getting like IP!!
You fucking fuckers…you ignorant imbeciles…you lefty wankers and rightwingneoconfacelifts!
whoohoo
:raspberry: :raspberry:
You don’t have to understand racism to get TC’s point. You have to know something about running a business…and not just thinking about how you’d run your imaginary business.
peace please
So then what’s the fucking point of trying to change things if it means little Lola’s parents can’t afford to send her to TAS this semester because hired an ABC?
You all are right. It was very shitty of me to come overseas and have the gall to seek the same opportunities as white people. I’m packing my bags as soon as I log off to ensure I don’t cause someone to lose a few thousand dollars in tuition because I was selfish enough to want a job.
Nama, miltown, naijeru, and persephone…you all’d better come with me or else we’ll bring down the whole fucking economy.
Yes.
They are learning black people are inferior because their teacher is white? 
You have absolutley no idea how English schools on Taiwan operate and make a profit, do you? Speaking of ignorance… :loco:
“You’re job search will be more difficult.”
Now you’re just sounding bitter and jaded. You didn’t do any research before coming to Taiwan? You didn’t realize your skin color might affect your job possibilities?
I came knowing the Taiwanese school owners would be ignorant. I didn’t expect the foreign ones would be too.
“You’re job search will be more difficult.”[/quote]
Do you think such a situation is acceptable?
I don’t. It is unjust, and something must be done to counter the injustice, rather than just simply rolling over and accepting the injustice.
Sadly, geography doesn’t improve morality or mentality.
Your plight has my sympathy, but not all of your posts on the subject do.
You were ignorant about the business of teaching ESL in Taiwan. The owners are quite aware of the situation.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]So then what’s the fucking point of trying to change things if it means little Lola’s parents can’t afford to send her to TAS this semester because hired an ABC?
You all are right. It was very shitty of me to come overseas and have the gall to seek the same opportunities as white people. I’m packing my bags as soon as I log off to ensure I don’t cause someone to lose a few thousand dollars in tuition because I was selfish enough to want a job.
Nama, miltown, naijeru, and persephone…you all’d better come with me or else we’ll bring down the whole fucking economy.[/quote]
ImaniOU, you know how much I respect you, but I think you are off base here.
We ALL feel the racism here, and NO ONE to my knowledge is condoning it. How many Brits and NZers and Ozzies have been fired or not hired because they didn’t sound “American?”
How many totally fluent Europeans and Filipinos have never been hired because they don’t come from “English speaking countries?”
This kind of shit affects us ALL, not just the blacks in Taiwan.
The world is unfair, and because of that it must be unfair in someone’s favor.
Business people the world over are in business for one thing…to make money. And most will take the easiest route to doing so…sadly even when what they do is morally and ethically (from OUR perspective) wrong. From “their” POV, it may just be bidness.
jds
“You’re job search will be more difficult.”[/quote]
Do you think such a situation is acceptable?
I don’t. It is unjust, and something must be done to counter the injustice, rather than just simply rolling over and accepting the injustice.[/quote]
I’d say the key is educating business owners through excellence and avoiding perpetuating or making the situation worse.
If there were a legal teachers union I’d look favorably on censoring schools that didn’t have good hiring practices.
I’m against legislation on this.