RAF: Utterly Useless?

[quote]Well…looks like the Paras prefer the yanks to the RAF…and the BBC doesn’t like it.

[quote=“Daily Telegraph”]

The military mission in Afghanistan could fail without more manpower and helicopters, a major within Britain’s main battle group warned yesterday.

In three leaked e-mails, Major James Loden, of 3 Para, based in battle-torn Helmand province, said more resources were “desperately” needed. He claimed that the RAF had been “utterly, utterly useless” at protecting British troops.

The leaks will embarrass the Ministry of Defence.

Thirty-five Armed Forces personnel have been killed in combat and non-combat theatres since March. Ministers have admitted that resistance from the Taliban is proving far tougher than expected.

In one of the e-mails, obtained by Sky News, he praises the bravery of Cpl Bryan Budd, who was killed on Aug 20, and describes the battle in which he died.

He tells how troops tried to advance forward to find Cpl Budd but were driven back under heavy fire, and describes how they could see the Taliban “rushing weapons out of a mosque”.

The two platoons were left “exhausted and scared”.

He has very unkind words for the RAF: "Controlling and directing air, arty and mors [artillery and mortars] is the best way to influence the battle. The RAF have been utterly, utterly useless.

"Twice I have had Harriers in support when c/s on the ground have been in heavy contact, on one occasion trying to break clean. A female Harrier pilot ‘couldn’t identify the target’, fired two phosphorous rockets that just missed our own compound so that we thought they were incoming RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades], and then strafed our perimeter, missing the enemy by 200 metres."

In "contrast" to the RAF, the US air force had been "fantastic". He adds: "I would take an A10 over Eurofighter any day.":lol: :laughing: :laughing:

The MoD said it was for services in Afghanistan.Major Loden received a Bronze Star medal from the American Army in April 2004

Gen Sir Richard Dannatt, the Chief of the General Staff, last night described Major Loden’s comments about the RAF as “regrettable”.

“The way the RAF has performed in support of our operations in Afghanistan has been exceptional,” he said.

“Irresponsible comments, based on a snapshot, are regrettable.”

telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh … wafg23.xml

[/quote][/quote]
I have no idea if the RAF are good bad or indifferent. But the above is simply one person’s view. I too read that story yesterday, but I also saw a paragraph in which it said the RAF Harriers and helicopter gunships are in great demand, and not just from the British over there, precisely because of their effectiveness.

The Warthogs have that special ability to go low & slow while raining down the fury of hell ‘danger close.’

Troops on the ground really appreciate that.

youtube.com/watch?v=nINgqs0_ … ed&search=

youtube.com/watch?v=M13SDBrO … ed&search=

youtube.com/watch?v=WnyHQXDh … ed&search=

[quote]For those of you who think the BBC is impartial, I will ask the following question. Why did the BBC remove praise for the USAF from the original article and repost a different version 11 hours later? They have also removed parts of the story mentioning other complaints from Para officers who are basically saying the same thing as Loden. Compare the two different stories below:

Then read the story that is posted:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5372768.stm[/quote]
The BBC impartial? When did THAT happen? :laughing:

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]The Warthogs have that special ability to go low & slow while raining down the fury of hell ‘danger close.’

Troops on the ground really appreciate that.

youtube.com/watch?v=nINgqs0_ … ed&search=

youtube.com/watch?v=M13SDBrO … ed&search=

youtube.com/watch?v=WnyHQXDh … ed&search=[/quote]

Let’s not forget Spooky!

AC 47 …

Seriously, did Dangermouse get banned or something? I would be expecting him to be riding his keyboard all day on this one. The BBC and RAF are two sacred intuitions to most English.

These kind of silly “better than you” stories are usually what I hear directed at the U.S., even when the shoes on the other foot it’s still just as silly.

[quote]In “contrast” to the RAF, the US air force had been “fantastic”. He adds: “I would take an A10 over Eurofighter any day.”
[/quote]

The A10, like the Harrier, is a ground attack aircraft and the Eurofighter is a stand off air defence fighter and IMO shouldn’t be used to attack ground targets. Chalk and Cheese.

OK Ralphy _ I was going to criticise the British government over the cutbacks it has been giving to the RAF and the British Army of late. However, having seen your post I thought I would honour your comments.

At least the Harrier pilot “just missed” the British troops on the ground, rather than blowing the shit out of them like an A10 pilot did to British troops in the Iraq war, killing 1 of them and injuring 9.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2901515.stm

And again with a Canadian:

Afghanistan NATO Mission - Operation Medusa (2006): 1 note the fatality was a Canadian Soldier, not American. Caused when two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolts accidentally strafed their own NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham, and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River. Graham was a former Canadian Olympic althlete who competed on the Canadian 4x400 Men’s Relay Team at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/09/04/us_warplanes_accidentally_kill_soldier/

And another 4 Canadians:

2002 - Four Canadian Forces soldiers are killed in Afghanistan by friendly fire from two U.S. Air Force F-16s, the first deaths in a combat zone for Canada since the Korean War.

Yet more US friendly fire, 4 US troops killed:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2003-04/06/content_817942.htm

3 more US troops were killed by friendly fire on 6th April 2002.

RAF jet shot down by US missile:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2878113.stm

Then there was the B52 which was on it’s way to bomb Iraq via a stop over at Fairford UK, but couldn’t find Fairford. One has to wonder how it would have found it’s target in Iraq.

And MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE which is published in the AAIB where a USAF F15 buzzed me while I was flying a private aircraft on approach to an airfield in the UK. It overtook me on the approach. Not only did it do this, but the pilot had somehow mistaken my airport for another airport over 20 miles away. I had to take extreme measures to get out of its way. The incident was noted as an airprox.

Utterly useless.

Good enough for you? :laughing:

Intuitions?

Let’s not forget where half of me comes from. I’m English by blood, not by birth…

It’s funny, ralphy, because I slag off the UK all the time on these forums, but when I have a stab at the US you don’t like it. :idunno:

Ah yes, but I think the point the article was making was that the RAF couldn’t hit anything, and to be fair, while they maybe friendlies, at least the yanks got them.

HG

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Ah yes, but I think the point the article was making was that the RAF couldn’t hit anything, and to be fair, while they maybe friendlies, at least the yanks got them.

HG[/quote]

Shooting Brits and their loyalist lackeys is a deep-rooted instinct for us Yanks. Sorry about that. We’re trying to get over it but it may take another couple hundred years before we get it completely out of our systems.

First of all thank you for not disappointing me Dangermouse. When slogging off on all which is wrong with the US Military I think you also have to put things in perspective. Like I told my English friend who was boasting how superior his forces are you have to remember, though the UK Armed Forces are impressive it’s still a boutique military. More f-ups and successes happen for the U.S. because actual size of the military and their presence around the world. But for people with ulterior motives America’s f-ups are because we are stupid, naïve, insert slam here and our successes are because we are lucky, big, insert excuse here. I guess whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Guys, guys, guys! Don’t you see this is just what the terrorists want us to do? The war is out there, man! Out there! Now, pull it together!

Well if you want to go fight I’ll need better directions than that :smiley:

[quote]First of all thank you for not disappointing me Dangermouse.[/quote] It’s my pleasure. You’re my pet hate of this week. Go on…

Of course.

[quote]Like I told my English friend who was boasting how superior his forces are you have to remember, though the UK Armed Forces are impressive it’s still a boutique military.
[/quote]

I never said the UK’s forces were superior. A boutique military it maybe, but it is proportionate to the size of the country and its current and forseeable committments… The US is a hardly a country, but a continent and its military size accounts for this. You can fit the UK in many of the sates of the US; sometimes two or three times over. However, Britains military is immensly powerful compared to the size of the island it protects,

Gung Ho. I never said stupid or Naive.

However, there have been many, many close calls and airproxes involving US planes in the UK. These events are disproportionate to the amount of US planes stationed in the UK. I’m sorry, but I have to either put this down to the pilots being either unfamiliar to the area (no excuse), unfamiliar to UK air traffic procedures (no excuse) or to poor airmanship (no excuse).

Yeah, like I said that. Whatever, ralphy.

I suggest you try and keep an eye open in future of the times I have praised the US and make a mental note of them. Then, perhaps, you’ll see that I’m not on America’s case all the time. Infact, I’m more likely to be slagging off Britain which is infact my very favourite pastime.

It is in fact because both countries are immensly stupid that I don’t make use of my right to live in either of them, and instead choose to live in some backwater Asian country where I can watch the various fuck-ups without having to be part of it. Backward though Taiwan is, I’d sure as hell rather be here than in some ego driven, holier-than-thou western country.

DM -
No reason to bring France into this otherwise enjoyable chat.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]DM -
No reason to bring France into this otherwise enjoyable chat.[/quote]

Don’t worry, I wasn’t going to.

:smiley:

Taiwan a backwater Asian country! What would Laos be in comparison then?

Paradise.

As a British person, I think we need to face some facts. (I also do have very reliable sources as to what is going on in the British miltary).

It is commonly believed by most British people that their military is the best in the world. Well sorry but that is not the case anymore. The British armed forces in particular the infantry were at a very high level of training and professionalism in the 1980’s. However, recently their standards have dropped. Not only in terms of equpiment (disgraceful) but in terms of admission procedures. It is now far easier in joining the British armed forces than ever before, mainly because they have a recruitment problem. The only area that Britian still does very well is its elite infantry units as their reputation still attracts young men. As far as the RAF goes, come on give me a break. Hopelessly equipped. The targetting systems of the RAF harriers all need to be replaced (terrible systems) the Chinook helicopters are also lacking spare parts (why one crashed and wiped out most of the high ranking members of the British intelligence services, they said it was pilot era but read the facts).
The SAS and SBS are some of the world’s best special forces but do not have a monopoly on it. There are plenty of other special forces units just as good ie South African, Navy seals etc etc. Come on guys the British paras are great as are the Royal marines but as a whole we are not the best any more, and the USAF is far superior than the RAF. Sorry but that is a fact. Very simple, just ask a para who they would prefer to provide air support, RAF or USAF ?
Below is an interesting link. You may be surprised.

hindu.com/thehindu/2002/06/2 … 601200.htm