I think this is a perfect example of why learning Chinese in China is far superior to learning Chinese here. I started studying Chinese at Nankai University in Tianjin and was a TOTAL beginner. I started with “Xie Xie” and “Ni hao, wo shi mei guo ren”. After 2 weeks I got the courage to venture out on my own and was amazed at how I was able to haggle and have simple conversations with people in Mandarin. Granted, communication was very limited, but everyday people would often try to talk to me and wouldn’t give up even when I said “ting bu dong” several times. They’d keep rambling in Chinese until I got something that I could understand.
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I think we have different definitions of a simple conversation. I think of a conversation as a period of sustained speech in which both speakers are genuinely interested in the content of what is being said.
I certainly agree that you don’t need to wait for two years to ask for things in the post office.
The post office? It’s been years since I’ve been there
I think this is a perfect example of why learning Chinese in China is far superior to learning Chinese here. I started studying Chinese at Nankai University in Tianjin and was a TOTAL beginner. I started with “Xie Xie” and “Ni hao, wo shi mei guo ren”. After 2 weeks I got the courage to venture out on my own and was amazed at how I was able to haggle and have simple conversations with people in Mandarin. Granted, communication was very limited, but everyday people would often try to talk to me and wouldn’t give up even when I said “ting bu dong” several times. They’d keep rambling in Chinese until I got something that I could understand.
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I think we have different definitions of a simple conversation. I think of a conversation as a period of sustained speech in which both speakers are genuinely interested in the content of what is being said.
I certainly agree that you don’t need to wait for two years to ask for things in the post office.
The post office? It’s been years since I’ve been there [/quote]
That’s what I meant in bringing up my progress starting out in German vs. starting out in Chinese. Our high school German class might have covered “Ich brauche ein Poststamp” in the first two or three weeks of German, but by the end of the semester we would have been able to do a whole presentation on “My Dream Vacation”. It took two years of University Chinese to get to the same point, and even then my ability was much more tentative.
In fact, German and English were similar enough that the teacher would berate us for trying to “fake it” when we weren’t quite sure of the correct German vocabulary. Easy enough habit to fall into when “mouse” = “Maus” and house = “Haus”. But I have no idea how I could fake Chinese in my second year–we had to build our vocabulary totally from scratch, and the tones and writing system were additional heavy lead weights on our feet in trying to get to that point.
I have friends who don’t speak English. Thanks to Erhu who put a gun to my head and made me get a private tutor, I can get pretty chatty in Chinese. But the lady at the fruit stand next to my house still responds to anything I say with “WoBuDongIngWen”
I usually turn around and ask someone else the same question in Chinese. Then have this person translate to her.The whole time I wont’speak a single English word. It is annoying as hell. And she is a young lady, not an old one.
After 3 months… no WAY I could order stuff.
Then again, after being here a year and a half (I know, I’m a baby) I could order things while barking. That is how good my body language has gotten.
And I have become a great artist. The other day I forgot how to say shrimp and drew one. Hahaha. Maybe you should draw things for them at your post office.
:bravo: Yeah, and even if you pronounce it right, one way to say ‘self-defense’ sounds just like ‘self-consolation’ (i.e., masturbation). Ah, the joys of homophony!
My friend and I were very proud when the waitress understood us after ordering some fries. After some hearty congratulations on out collective brilliance, we pissed ourselves when she came back with a plastic bag.
It is easy to break out of that pattern with a bit of that mad-cap banter we foreigners are apt to display. For example last night at the brass monkey whn the girl asked why I came to Taiwan I said “Ni3 yao3 bu4 yao3 kan4 kan4 wo2 tian3 wo3 de ru3tou2?” She laughed and made goo goo eyes so I guess that went over pretty well…
I see foriegners who seem to speak better Mandarin than me all the time and then I realize they are probably talking about something to do with their business. Maybe the guy exports zippers or something and there are fifteen different words in Mandarin for zipper style. I don’t even know how to say zipper, or button for that matter, but I’m working on aesthetic sensibility and critical judgement because I actually want to actually use those words. None of us will ever be native speakers of Chinese. There will always be huge holes in our knowledge base. Why pretend otherwise?[/quote]
actually I politely dis-agree. I think it is possible to speak better then a native !! It IS possible and it HAS been done !
[quote=“Quarters”]I speak very very verrrry little madarin. My Fiancee has been teaching me over time both Mandarin and Taiwanese.
For me, Taiwanese is a much MUCH easier language to pronounce correctly. At least enough for native folk to understand me. She even says that my Taiwanese is easier to understand than my Mandarin attempts. She was shocked and said that for most, Taiwanese is harder and has more tones??? Really???[/quote]
I started life speaking Taiwanese and then went to an American kindergarten, etc and only after high school started to learn Mandarin. And I can say that Taiwanese seems easier for the western tongue as evidenced by my whitey friends who grew up with me. I met this catholic priest who is Italian and his Taiwanese is absolutely flawless. Put a farmers hat on him and you would never know he wasnt Taiwanese thru and thru.
I think this post touches very close home for me. I came to Taiwan to learn Chinese, and at first I was very annoyed with people in general continuing to respond to me in English. That no longer bothers me now as I realize it is their perrogative to speak English as it mine to speak Chinese. This usually causes no problems when interacting with people in public. But last night I straight went into an argument with the bartender at the River in Zhong-Li. It started by her saying “Can you say something that makes sense? You should speak your best language.” So I told her to do the same. Meanwhile I’m minding my business and talking to the other people around me in Chinese. Then she goes in with “Would you just shutup?” So I told her “Wo zhidao ni yao lianxi keshi wo zhende bu zaihu.” She starts going on about how she doesn’t need to practice English. Anyways, that really pissed her off, but then we ended the argument by doing a shot together.
I don’t understand why someone would so emotional over me speaking Chinese. I wouldn’t say my Chinese is very nanting. I’ve been here for 8 months, but I’ve studied real hard and my tones are to the point where I don’t have a hard time being understood. Most Taiwanese assume I have been here for a long time. I don’t have the vocabulary of some of my friends who have been here for many years, but my ability to make sentences I would say is better. I’ve just never been to a place where it took some much work and determination to learn the language. Chinese itself is hard enough, but the people don’t make it any easier.
[quote=“occhimarroni”]I think this post touches very close home for me. I came to Taiwan to learn Chinese, and at first I was very annoyed with people in general continuing to respond to me in English. That no longer bothers me now as I realize it is their perrogative to speak English as it mine to speak Chinese. This usually causes no problems when interacting with people in public. But last night I straight went into an argument with the bartender at the River in Zhong-Li. It started by her saying “Can you say something that makes sense? You should speak your best language.” So I told her to do the same. Meanwhile I’m minding my business and talking to the other people around me in Chinese. Then she goes in with “Would you just shutup?” So I told her “Wo zhidao ni yao lianxi keshi wo zhende bu zaihu.” She starts going on about how she doesn’t need to practice English. Anyways, that really pissed her off, but then we ended the argument by doing a shot together.
I don’t understand why someone would so emotional over me speaking Chinese. I wouldn’t say my Chinese is very nanting. I’ve been here for 8 months, but I’ve studied real hard and my tones are to the point where I don’t have a hard time being understood. Most Taiwanese assume I have been here for a long time. I don’t have the vocabulary of some of my friends who have been here for many years, but my ability to make sentences I would say is better. I’ve just never been to a place where it took some much work and determination to learn the language. Chinese itself is hard enough, but the people don’t make it any easier.[/quote]
Its too bad for someone learning a language to run into such difficulties. Perhaps because mandarin is such a tonal language, if someone doesnt speak it perfectly tone wise its grating to the ears of the listeners. English as a language seems much more forgiving. Seems the French also dont like it when people dont speak their language correctly.
Its a sad situation to be sure, and a catch 22. HOw to speak properly if you are not allowed to and ridiculed?? Thats probably why a lot more people will go to China to learn to speak Mandarin because the Chinese are happy to let you speak Mandarin to them and in fact seem to encourage it?
I dont know what has changed. Because when I was learning Mandarin I had no such difficulty. I didnt have people forcing me to speak english. I think then Taiwanese had a lot less english ability perhaps? And/or my being half chinese discouraged them speaking english to me? Or what?
[quote=“Tomas”]Hang in there. Three months in not really long enough to develop the necessary muscle memory your tongue, lips, and throat need to accurately reproduce sounds in Mandadrin. If you keep practicing and don’t allow these sorts of experiences to discourage you, you’ll eventually get it down.
It could be worse–I recall several ocassions when I was learning to speak Mandarin where the person hearing me speak would simply burst out laughing (e.g. I once referred to the Jianguo “raised bridge” as the Jianguo “orgasm”).
Yes, there are many Taiwanese folks who are downright shocked to learn that a bignose can speak fluent Mandarin, and with good reason, wouldn’t you say? And yes, sometimes they will assume that you’re still speaking English to them, particularly if your tones or pronunciation are a bit off. I don’t think it’s intended to be aggressive or condescending. It can actually be stressful and confusing for them. They are often doing the best they can.
Don’t get too fixated on the frustrations you experience–it does you no good, will only slow you down. Nobody likes to feel ignorant or unappreciated, I know. I always took these sorts of experiences as a challenge to hone my Mandarin skills to the point where I could rip off a complex sentence on a variety of topics without skipping a beat in the conversation. Some days I succeed, some days I don’t. That’s the way it goes.[/quote]
This post, like so many others, proves that you are the consummate gentleman. And your advice is damn good, too. :bravo:
That’s great! 高架 vs. 高潮 !
Ah, the joys of homophony!
