Your missing the whole point. The kindies operate illegally, but usually get away with it. They lie to the foreigners, who might then get deported. The kindy then pays a fine and hires another sucker. So you would knowingly participate in this? Sounds like you’re the self-righteous know it all. It’s laughable that you feel you are so knowledgeable that you can determine whether or not to fuck with someone’s life under these circumstances, no matter how you rationalize it.[/quote]
So if you know it is illegal why then do it? Illegals get deported all the time from all sorts of countries. It screws up their lives, they get on with them somewhere else. What are you going to do about it? Nothing most likely.
Now lets say I took new employment to catch both kinergartens and illegal teachers. Would that bother you? A kindergarten might get fined and lose it licence. The teacher if illegal gets deported. Now who loses more? The parents who need to rush their kids off to a new school? The teachers who all lose thier jobs and won’t get new ones so easily. The Kindy owner who gets fined and perhaps their business closed?
Lets face it, many foreigners teach illegally and Kindy and get away with it too.
[quote=“mpallard”]Just because you don’t understand the purpose of a law or the background behind it doesn’t mean it’s a bad law or it wasn’t properly thought through before being passed.
It’s a law that was passed for the betterment of society. It’s actually laughable that English teachers feel they are so knowledgeable about Taiwan that they can determine whether or not a law is beneficial to Taiwanese society.
I’d lose no sleep ratting out someone who knowingly broke this law no matter how they had rationalized it.[/quote]
mpallard,
I actually misread your name and thought it was anther poster “mallard” who I think used reductio ad absurdum as a debating technique in the 911 thread to great effect, very funny stuff. Although I think some of the other posters took the posts at face value, not that you or emerihsoetihw are using reductio ad absurdum in this thread.
I sense you are an honest and responsible person who would not hesitate to rat out anyone for breaking the law of the land, even if it caused you emotional conflict such as a personal friend, mother or close family member, perhaps just for littering. Who knows, if you were in China, you might feel obliged to report anyone who broke their laws, more than a few of which are for me hard to understand. But as you say, just because I dont understand them, doesnt mean they are there for a good reason and we should all have a duty to rat out anyone who broke them. They might end up in a prison doing hard labour, but hey, thats their problem. Shouldnt have broken the law.
Your missing the whole point. The kindies operate illegally, but usually get away with it. They lie to the foreigners, who might then get deported. The kindy then pays a fine and hires another sucker. So you would knowingly participate in this? Sounds like you’re the self-righteous know it all. It’s laughable that you feel you are so knowledgeable that you can determine whether or not to fuck with someone’s life under these circumstances, no matter how you rationalize it.[/quote]
So if you know it is illegal why then do it? Illegals get deported all the time from all sorts of countries. It screws up their lives, they get on with them somewhere else. What are you going to do about it? Nothing most likely.
Now lets say I took new employment to catch both kinergartens and illegal teachers. Would that bother you? A kindergarten might get fined and lose it licence. The teacher if illegal gets deported. Now who loses more? The parents who need to rush their kids off to a new school? The teachers who all lose their jobs and won’t get new ones so easily. The Kindy owner who gets fined and perhaps their business closed?
Lets face it, many foreigners teach illegally and Kindy and get away with it too.[/quote]
I agree. I don’t think foreigners should take the risk. And there may well be some sense to the law, or at least a sincere attempt at it.
I’m just saying that doesn’t justify ratting them out. Why would anyone do that, unless they were a prick? Yes, if (fully hypothetical, for the sake of friendly discussion between forumosans) you or anyone else took it upon themselves to become a professional kindy rat I would look down on them, very much so in fact.
I agree. I don’t think foreigners should take the risk. And there may well be some sense to the law, or at least a sincere attempt at it.
I’m just saying that doesn’t justify ratting them out. Why would anyone do that, unless they were a prick? Yes, if (fully hypothetical, for the sake of friendly discussion between forumosans) you or anyone else took it upon themselves to become a professional kindy rat I would look down on them, very much so in fact.[/quote]
But lets says it’s just a local doing their job inspecting Kindies and busting them and getting illegal teachers deported. You’d have no problems with that? Because the Education Dept does do that from time to time.
Sandman: I love Taiwan loads. I just don’t love the hypocritical attitude towards legality.
STV: I would respect the inspectors more if the law was well applied. Many kindy workers don’t know their job is illegal, and when they do they can feel trapped in, money ARC etc. Newbs can feel helpless. If the government did more to let foreigners know then I would be happier. I’ve never met an inspector for the MiniEd, so I don’t know their trip. If a foreigner became kind of a full-time rat on other foreigners, then I would wonder why that person was hired. Was it because they were an adoga? If so, then it’s not the same. Even if a foreigner becomes Taiwanese in nationality, they once weren’t, so by my normal expectations for human empathy I would find their job choice to be suspect, to say the least. New passport = new person? That doesn’t compute to me.
I don’t get it. You keep bringing up this “foreigner empathy” thing, but to me, Americans are FAR more foreign than pretty much ANYBODY else. I just don’t understand them or that country at all. Definitely the weirdest people on the planet, at least among those I’ve met.
I have MUCH more empathy with Taiwan and the Taiwanese.
Edit: No, I see you actually wrote “human empathy.” MY “human empathy” is with the legal worker who has no job because an illegal has taken it.
[quote=“BigJohn”]Sandman: I love Taiwan loads. I just don’t love the hypocritical attitude towards legality.
STV: I would respect the inspectors more if the law was well applied. Many kindy workers don’t know their job is illegal, and when they do they can feel trapped in, money ARC etc. Newbs can feel helpless. If the government did more to let foreigners know then I would be happier. I’ve never met an inspector for the MiniEd, so I don’t know their trip. If a foreigner became kind of a full-time rat on other foreigners, then I would wonder why that person was hired. Was it because they were an adoga? If so, then it’s not the same. Even if a foreigner becomes Taiwanese in nationality, they once weren’t, so by my normal expectations for human empathy I would find their job choice to be suspect, to say the least. New passport = new person? That doesn’t compute to me.[/quote]
But it would make perfect sense to employ an expat who become a local national. Many other countries do the same thing with thier immigration staff. After all they need people who are fluent in the languages of those they want to catch too.
Your hang up would be that a foreigner who is an ROC Citizen, who would just be doing his / her job and it irks you that you aren’t getting busted by a Chinese person. Why would I have empathy for those caught working illegally? I don’t know them after all.
Sure’d I’d be saying yep tough luck your SOL and outta here. It’s not like they end up in a prison doing hard labour or facing lashes of the cane as they would in Malaysia. I guess you think all those immigration officials in your own country who job it is to catch and deport illegal immigrants are low lifes too?
STV: I’d say a Taiwanese guy who emigrated to Canada, and then got a job ratting out Taiwanese students working illegally, who then got deported back to Taiwan, would be a rat. I guess the system needs a certain amount of rats, though. It takes all kinds. But I still don’t like such people.
Sandman: Why do you portray it as having empathy for foreigners OR for Taiwanese?
Why not have compassion for a stranger, if they are not really harming anyone?
Anyway, I’m getting a bit tired of this discussion. Can we agree to disagree?
I’m with Big John. Who needs that kind of negativity in their life? I cut people who think like that from my life, and am happier for it. Strive for the good!
Well, isn’t it YOU who keeps bringing up the “we foreigners should stick together” schtick? Maybe it was some other poster. If so, sorry. My point is that Taiwanese are FAR less foreign to me than Americans, so therefore I’d be more inclined to stick together with Taiwanese than Americans – if I felt the need to “stick together” with any particular nationality.
[quote]Why not have compassion for a stranger, if they are not really harming anyone?
[/quote]
But they ARE! If you happen agree with the government’s take that kiddies shouldn’t be learning English. Who am I to believe? Government education experts or angry 20-something backpackers on their unique Asian sojourn?
[quote=“sandman”]Well, isn’t it YOU who keeps bringing up the “we foreigners should stick together” schtick? Maybe it was some other poster. If so, sorry. My point is that Taiwanese are FAR less foreign to me than Americans, so therefore I’d be more inclined to stick together with Taiwanese than Americans – if I felt the need to “stick together” with any particular nationality.
[quote]Why not have compassion for a stranger, if they are not really harming anyone?
[/quote]
But they ARE! If you happen agree with the government’s take that kiddies shouldn’t be learning English. Who am I to believe? Government education experts or angry 20-something backpackers on their unique Asian sojourn?[/quote]
That’s funny. I never thought of you as one of those “I trust the government” types. Kindy teachers hurting the kids. Yep, it’s a psycho bloodbath out there. I wonder why all those parents are so in love with their foreign kindy teachers, who are harming their children? Strange. Let’s ask the government.
A lot of famous people have ratted out foreigners. The hero to many Latin American workers in the US, Cesar Chavez, used to rat out illegal immigrants in the US. His brother even roughed them up.
Not a huge fan of the Buchananite Paleo-conservative American Conservative magazine, but this article on Cesar is spot on:
[quote]
Like today’s Minutemen, UFW staffers under the command of Chavez’s brother Manuel patrolled the Arizona-Mexico border to keep out illegal aliens. Unlike the well-behaved Minutemen, however, Chavez’s boys sometimes beat up intruders. [/quote] amconmag.com/article/2006/feb/27/00011/
Yes well a totally racist and bigoted attitude towards who should get done in. Yeah I’m Canadian lets boot out illegal Asians. But I’m Canadian in Taiwan how dare you boot out illegal Canadian English teachers because we all must have empathy for our own? And screw the Taiwan authorities they don’t know what they are doing with these stupid laws regarding teaching ENglish in Kindergartens.
Yeah right. :roflmao:
Actually I would support them employing foreigners as teachers in Kindergartens, as long as they held the proper professional qualifictions such as a Bachelor of Education in Early Childhood or what ever it is you need to teach at that level. Many locals that I know don’t hold very high opinions of the English teachers that come here in the first place. MAny bushiban owners especially the expat owned ones also hold them in scant regard.
Look here’s a picture of me turning up to teach a class. I look pretty much the same as many who come here to teach English just a bit older? Surely you can feel some empathy for me.
Actually I would support them employing foreigners as teachers in Kindergartens, as long as they held the proper professional qualifictions such as a Bachelor of Education in Early Childhood or what ever it is you need to teach at that level.[/quote]
Exactly. :bravo: When people go to the doctor, they want to see a licensed physician. When people want their finances looked after, they go to a licensed accountant. Why not the same care for their most precious asset–their children and future heirs? You want people that have learned how to teach and that know educational psychology in some respects. I’m not denying that people with no certification don’t make good teachers. In many instances they do. However, for the very early formative years, I believe it is far more important that they be certified.
Who am I to believe? Government education experts or angry 20-something backpackers on their unique Asian sojourn?
