[quote=“ironlady”]Even IF the government admits that it deported the guy based on false evidence (a big IF already), it’s unlikely that they would ever apologize publicly. And, after all, the guy WAS teaching kindy, which IS illegal, right? From the government’s perspective, they have absolutely nothing to apologize about.
The traditional Chinese legal system starts by assuming that all parties are lying. It is then the judge’s responsibility to figure out what the truth is. So I suppose that the falsity or veracity of evidence wouldn’t be as much of a concern as in other systems of law.[/quote]
There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. I wouldn’t hold my breath on the deportee coming back anytime soon. We would have to see the pictures in question, what exactly the guy was doing in them, and if they are able to prove the age of other people in the pictures.
The guy who lied in court is in trouble though.
I guess the moral of the story is that it is unwise to get the law too involved in any of your affairs :no-no: . It is also unwise to make enemies :no-no:.
It is impossible to convey through this medium the intense feelings of justice and satisfaction many people in Taichung will have upon learning about this turn of events.
Look, I’ve been here since the days when even blowing your nose wrong was illegal, yet you still could do most anything you wanted.
All of you old timers must have worked illegally from time to time. It was unavoidable. Your ARC at the time only covered on Branch of a multi-branch school. If I teacher had an emergency, you’d have to substitute for your co-worker.
Even the most reputable and trusted chain of English language schools do this. It is almost impossible to follow the letter of the law and live in Taiwan. In small towns, the police don’t even want to see illegal things…
Examples. You build a house. The Taiwan building code has a ridiculous rule that requires a useless balcony on the back of your house. What do all builders do? They build a “Hollywood set” balcony, photograph it and then extend the house. The police and fire regularly come to your building because you have a public business in it. It passes hands down every time!
Get your car inspected? You have those front and rear guards on the car. The inspection station measures your car too long. What do they do? They take off one guard, measure and photograph your car then put it back on. It’s obvious the the guards are a matched set and they are going back on the car again.
I was mistreated and cheated at a school for many years. Several times a year we’d have a misunderstanding and I’d use the power "I know what you are doing here is illegal and I can report you or I may let him know that “Da Family” is not happy and things happen when “Da Family” is not happy. I always recovered what was taken from me. I never thought of turning in another poor working slob like me trying to put bread on the table for his family. However, I got tired because I’m a bit too honost even by the us standards, so I got my work open work permit and dropped off the radar screen.
The point is… don’t be illegal but in some areas it’s very hard to do. And the states I’ll tell you. My company in the states, a computer mail order firm, would periodically get rid of display models. They are too old to sell but still usable. They had to be destroyed for tax purposes. Periodically they’d tell us that the computers would be in the dumpster. My boss thought I was too legal eagle to tell me of the salvage parties. Taiwan sure helped my development as a person.
This is exactly what I would say to some people posting here who say they have no sympathy for foreigners who get caught teaching illegally in Taiwan. If they have been here teaching for any length of time and teaching legally for one school the whole time, they are lucky.
I’d wager that most the people making such post have done something illegally and have never been caught for it.
There are some posting here who do not fully understand this.
More likely than not, but so what? Unless you know for sure they’d be whining if they were caught that doesn’t mean anything. Put another way, you have to know the rules of the game before you play, if you want to play.
[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”]
This is exactly what I would say to some people posting here who say they have no sympathy for foreigners who get caught teaching illegally in Taiwan. If they have been here teaching for any length of time and teaching legally for one school the whole time, they are lucky.
I’d wager that most the people making such post have done something illegally and have never been caught for it.
[/quote]
More likely than not, but so what? Unless you know for sure they’d be whining if they were caught that doesn’t mean anything. Put another way, you have to know the rules of the game before you play, if you want to play.[/quote]
Indeed! One shouldn’t play on that field, unless one knows the lay of the land. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. On a cynical level this means being smart enough to not get caught, which means doing one’s utmost to not be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Adapt one’s sensory apparatus to smell the festering rats. Even the foreign ones.
Yet who’s making such an unsympathetic post? Chances are they are not teachers to begin with.
Hmm… Let me see here.
That’s how it works. Keep your affairs in order. Don’t work illegally. The guy who did the ratting presumably also had things to keep him in Taiwan. And presumably WASN’T illegal. And if he was, well, bidness is bidness. Look after number one.
And what the HELL is with this “fellow foreigner” garbage? I have several friends who are foreigners. I also know of FAR more foreigners who I wouldn’t give the steam off of my piss. “Fellow foreigners” indeed!
I’m not saying that makes them worthy targets to be ratted-out, but it does reduce one’s level of sympathy for them.
Moving to the other side of the world for whatever stupid reason attracts arseholes, misfits, losers, the mad, the criminal, the addicted, and the terminally stupid and immature with no accurate sense of risk assessment.
Brother Rat, that’s who!
Foreigner because he’s a “bad guy”, when he just didn’t want to date her anymore (or take no for an answer), then she got what she deserved.
I don’t like most people in general unless they give me a good reason to.
And this whole “we foreigners gotta stick together” line of thinking is a thick steaming pile of bullshit
Otherwise, as my mother used to say, “tough titties”.
If you get caught out, be it du to a standard check or someone notifying the authorities, well tough shit.
If you get caught out, be it du to a standard check or someone notifying the authorities, well tough shit.
Not me. I was born a self-righteous, judgmental, know-it-all with no compassion.
And I haven’t even gotten to the part where STV joined in the conversation.
Not really. Most of those comments are aimed at those faulty prismed protagonists that maintain that any event that involves a single foreigner somehow involves us all.
Woe is us!
A few of the others are perhaps a few hardballers playing realists. Some of these chaps no doubt have sympathy for the guy who was ratted out, but only because someone finked on him, not because he was involved in illegal activity.
And the Brother Rat comment was mine. It meant to express opposition to the faulty notion that one should trust or even identify with someone for the sole reason that they are not of Taiwanese descent.
Other comments may come from the usual suspects that gear up to vilify and mock foreign English teachers. They’re usually not teachers themselves, though they might have been at one time. Nothing like a convert to turn on their former selves.
In any event, weren’t most of these posts from quite early in the thread? What does one expect, a mass wringing of hands, gnashing of teeth, and various gushing lamentations? For someone not widely known, in an unclear yet illegal situation, of machinations that are not at all obvious to anyone not implicitly involved?
People get caught teaching illegally everyday. I’m not sure pathos can stretch so far for one chap, just because he is a foreigner. Pathos for being ratted out, sure, but not merely because an individual of a certain ethnicity got caught doing what many others get away with.
Firstly my only ARC I had here was a marriaged based ARC until I got citizenship. I know many other long termers who have never taught English here as well. So you should not assume all long termers have been working illegally. I know many who had work permits back in the 1980’s and 1990’s who are still here.
[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”]And I haven’t even gotten to the part where STV joined in the conversation.
That enough for you?[/quote]
Not sure if its enough or not. I kow quite afew foreingers working in places with no work permits for that. Do I go around ratting them out? I just surmised that if I worked for the Ministry of Education or FAP catching out those working illegally how that would be. Lo and behold if that didnt get some peoples knickers in a knot with the " you have to support your own race" BS. I even got a few nice PM’s saying what a race traitor I am. I know several long termers who used fake documents to get their APRC’s. Should I be a nice lad and ring up my wife’s relative who is very senior up in the FAP and dobb them all in?
I mean getting permanent residence based on forged educational documents, not exactly a minor crime is it? Or is it? Forgery and fraud no big deal nowadays I guess. SO is it wrong not to inform about that or is it correct to inform? If you were in your country would you inform? I can’t be bothered informing, does that make me somehow irresponsible? Some people would say yes and some say no.
Reality is that if you are prepared to work illegally then there is a risk of getting caught, it doesn’t matter by what means. You might get deported and that’s that. No Tears No Mercy No last minute appeals get you off the plane. There are many foreigners willing to take the risk and work illegally. Not just a few English teachers.
Firstly my only ARC I had here was a marriaged based ARC until I got citizenship. I know many other long termers who have never taught English here as well. So you should not assume all long termers have been working illegally. I know many who had work permits back in the 1980’s and 1990’s who are still here.[/quote]
Dear Satelllite TV,
I came here on a work permit legally. But I was required to work before my permit was finished mainly because the Taiwan Health Department had a conniption and threw out all foreign health reports at the time and we had to shit in the up again and so forth. Some US Taiwan diplomatic row. I also had to work at other branches of a very reputable language school.
As you all know, if your ARC is married to one workplace address, you can’t even go to an adjoining building of the same school. The rules here in Taiwan, are made intentionally so you can’t follow them. It’s to help you build better “interpersonal relationships”,
When I came here, I did not know I was breaking any rules by going to an other branch to help my employer. I even trusted my employer.
And open work-permits were not available until a few years ago. My boss at my lousy school in the Taiwan’s Appalachia threatened me. He said… “Well, you can get an ARC from your wife but you can’t work or I keep your ARC and you can work” Just then MOSES or should I say Hartzel let it be known that open work permits were available. And when I showed the BOSS MAN my permit he said… “Permits, we don’t need permits, we’re all friends…”
Like I said. My building to be legal to safely hold students or the public has to be changed from the original Taiwan building code. So… What is legal for the police and fire is also illegal for the division of building codes or who ever they are. No matter what you do, you can not be legal. There will always be some rule some who doesn’t like you can use against you.
Yeah right, a diplomatic tiff with the USA and they threw out ALL the medicals on foreign nationals and made them do it all over again. Where do you dream up this shite? The fact is you were willing to work before you got your work permit. Nobody forced you to. You made a choice to. So how is it you came here on a work permit but then had to work without one. You can’t have arrived here with a work permit? If so then your Visitor Visa was stamped not allowed to work in Taiwan. You seem to understand English well enough, is there something on your visa you didnt understand?
As to the law, claiming ignorance of the law isn’t an excuse. Whether you knew or not doesn’t make any difference if you get caught. People are warned but choose to take their chances.
Rule number one, people will lie to you. You could have asked the FAP if that was legal? But you maybe chose not to incase you got an answer you didn’t like. You are an adult when you come here not a child.
I’m very legal. I love rubbing people’s faces in it. I’m just saying that poor slob trying to do his first job was cut short. He probably did not know any better.
But, yes, all of the Health Reports of my “trainee class” for the leading English School who shares the name of a US gas company was thrown out. The class after mine nor before mine had such problems. Someone did piss some off. That was thirteen years ago and yes… almost all people who got hired overseas to this day do this illegal thing. There is a flaw in the law. I’d change it but we foreigners united already fought and won the right to get a joining family visa, the right to get a ten year ARC, the right to get a permanent ARC, the right to have our children made Taiwan citizens and the right to freedom of work. I got mine… now I’m tired.
(For those newbies who read this…Not too long ago the children were regarded property of the Father and assumed his nationality. Kids of foreign fathers were told to “Hit the Road Jack” when they turned legal age. Even if the father had abandoned the kids.)
I’m just expressing the fact that many many people did the illegal things because they had no choice. If they did not work illegally for a short period of time they would have been replaced. And for that matter… the “illegal work” was done with the full knowledge of the Foreign Service police department who was processing the paperwork at the time. They did not mind. Show some compassion.
Just curious. When you first came here and got your joining family ARC, what kind of job provided your work permit. Until the open permit, work rights were not connected to the family arc.
Sorry, STV. Is everything you or your best freinds do totally legal. I gave several examples in one of my previous e-mails. You never run into one wing of goverment saying you must do a thing one way and then an other wing telling you the oposite?
You put up sat dishes. Does each instalation agree with every zoning law, or every homeowner’s association rules? Is there not a little gray area? Don’t you ever step one mm out of the law.
Me, I don’t do anything illegal. I may drive a few KM over the speedlimit but that’s all.
I didn’t have a job exactly. I was listed as a dependent ( as was our son ) on my wifes tax records. I was a house husband in fact.
Sure I had a shares in an immigration and education business which my wife was the president of and I owned only 49%, the maximum a foreigner could then own under the law. Fortunately we owned our own 4 storey house and the business licence was issued to that address. That was in Taichuing and we had a branch office in Taipei as well.
I have never had a work permit in Taiwan, not in the 22 years I have been here. By the way, my son who was born here to an ROC Mother has Australian citizenship only, but can get an APRC when he turns 20. Not all dependents are tossed out you know. The children were never the property of the father.
[quote=“Taiwan_Student”]Sorry, STV. Is everything you or your best freinds do totally legal. I gave several examples in one of my previous e-mails. You never run into one wing of goverment saying you must do a thing one way and then an other wing telling you the oposite? You put up sat dishes. Does each instalation agree with every zoning law, or every homeowner’s association rules? Is there not a little gray area? Don’t you ever step one mm out of the law.
Me, I don’t do anything illegal. I may drive a few KM over the speedlimit but that’s all.[/quote]
Zoning laws lol. Actually by law the rooftops of apartment buildings are public access space. Satellite dioshes were declared legal in 1994 and watchingany foreign content ruled legal by a Supreme Court Ruling in 2000 plus, can’t remembe the exact daqte but it’s on my website. Of course you may need permission from the building management to put up a dish. Just can’t do it in Taipei on weekends or after 6pm at night. There are laws you know. Home owners association rules are not laws. Some people live in houses so they don’t need to ask their compounds association for permission.
What did you expect? Do you think people would send you their love and congradulations for that :ohreally: ?
[quote]I know several long termers who used fake documents to get their APRC’s. Should I be a nice lad and ring up my wife’s relative who is very senior up in the FAP and dobb them all in?
[/quote] Here’s what you should do; You should mind your own business.
[quote]If you were in your country would you inform?[/quote] No, I wouldn’t. I would Mind My Own Business!
No, it doesn’t. It make you a person who is MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS! :bluemad:
What are these people doing that is hurting you?
When I first came to Taiwan, it was the wild west. You could generally do a lot of things that you wanted to do and not worry too much. If you were working at a kindergarten, the school would pretty much just say don’t show up for work on the day the inspectors arrive. A lot of the legal jobs were only offering a few hours a week and it was neccessary to take addtional work just to get by. It was a nice break from North America were they were regulating everything to death. Here it was you just did what you need to do and you didn’t think about it too much . Now hings are getting to be more and more like they are back in the states with big government wanting to come in and control everything.
Parents wanted foreigners teaching their kindergarten aged children English and the schools went out and got it for them. Nowadays the thinking is that we have this law on the books so we should enforce it. The government is trying to control people’s lives. It’s all part of the coming New World Order :raspberry: .
SO is it wrong not to inform about that or is it correct to inform? If you were in your country would you inform? I can’t be bothered informing, does that make me somehow irresponsible? Some people would say yes and some say no.
. Now hings are getting to be more and more like they are back in the states with big government wanting to come in and control everything.