I just wish they would discover massive oil resources in Taiwan… maybe then it would be a democracy worth fighting for.
[quote=“daasgrrl”]that’s no more ironic than the US fighting for democracy, when according to a quick google at least 40% of their eligible population doesn’t bother exercising that right.[/quote]I guess voter apathy (or disillusionment?) is a sign of a mature democracy. I’m not American btw, and I have no axe to grind with the Aussies. 
read above
btw we’re off topic start a new thread how benevolent n loving China is toward its neighbors or something if you want.
I read the above and only see the mental damage that TI can cause.
Please keep this discussion civil and on topic. Thanks.
An interesing post elsewhere listed the questions in the Australian poll. Here’s the Taiwan question.
The fact that Taiwan is a democracy is elided and the entire issue is framed as following the US into war rather than the merits of defending Taiwan.
In that sense it is a loaded and poor polling question given the issue.
You might as well ask: if you knew now what Iraq was going to be like before the invasion would you have supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq?
No. I don’t see either of those as a loaded question. There are legitimate reasons to answer either way.
The polling question asks exactly what it asks; maybe it’s not what you want to know. Australia’s alliance obligations are not to defend Taiwan or to defend democracy, but exactly to be a mutual defense pact between Australia and the US (and NZ). The question frames this perfectly.
I think the polling question was adequate. Perhaps you would have preferred something like “Should Australia follow the United States to defend a free and democratic Taiwan against evil communist aggression?” The hypothetical alternative given at the link you mentioned is no less biased than the original question, in fact it is blatantly more so because it explicitly appeals to emotive issues by mentioning possible casualties. Nice try though Feiren. I think the most neutral question possible would be something akin to asking “Should Australia become involved in a possible conflict between China and the United States over Taiwan given your understanding of the causes and consequences it entails”. With that being in mind, I think it is probable that most Australians would probably still have polled fairly close to the actual responses.
Perhaps you should also note that Australia and the United States are not one and the same and the foreign policy objectives do not neccessarily overlap. As far as I am aware, Australia has not made it’s foreign policy the spread of “democracy” everywhere. Thus whether or not Taiwan is democratic is irrelevant to the issue.
I suppose you are right. It isn’t really a poor polling question, however, an interesting polling question would be, “Do you think Australia should be prepared to offer defence support to democratic Taiwan against an invasion from communist China?”
Look. It’s a poll about ANZUS. It’s not a lesson in Taiwan straits relations to the person getting the call. The question assumes existing knowledge and understanding about the Taiwan straits relations, whatever it may be for the given person. If the person polled has an idea about what is involved, great. If not, then it is pointless (and wrong) to tell them words like “communist” and “democratic” in the poll unless you think the problem can be described in two words.
No, it would be interesting.
Yes, it would be an interesting experiment to measure people’s psychological reactions to the words “communist” and “democratic” associated to names of places, and how that affects people’s perceptions. Good one. Especially if results from this poll and the existing poll are seen together.
Or their reaction to the term “bushiban-owner”. Wouldn’t egg me onto fight for these people.
Australia would have a hard time defending an eletric toaster, so why would it bother with Taiwan, with which it only has commercial interests.
You can’t expect a country with a military not much bigger than the boy scouts to do anything at all.
[quote=“Satellite TV”]Australia would have a hard time defending an eletric toaster, so why would it bother with Taiwan, with which it only has commercial interests.
You can’t expect a country with a military not much bigger than the boy scouts to do anything at all.[/quote]
So why are we in Iraq? It is nt a matter of CAN we defend Taiwan but rather are we, obliged to defend a young and vibrant democracy, especially considering we entered Iraq under (among others) the premise of democracy.
Every military contribution in Iraq beyond the Americans and the Brits is little more than a token force provided for political capital. A couple of hundred soldiers garrisoning a town may deter some insurgents, it is not going to deter any organized army. For Australia to actually make an impact in any major war effort, it will require full mobilization and draft. The standing Australian army doesn’t even have a full division, the largest units being 3 brigades. Most of the other units are regiment size and below.
Satellite TV wasn’t kidding when he said that the Australian Army isn’t much bigger than the boy scouts. He is actually wrong, the Boy Scouts(of America at least) is considerably larger than the Australian Army.
Thats not to say Australia can’t contribute, since they do have a Navy and Air Force. However, no carriers means no force projection and the only realistic aid that Australia can offer in the event of a war over Taiwan is logistical support and many a few surface vessels.
Yes yes yes… I - WE - THE WORLD knows these points but that doesnt detract from the importance of these contributions - whether ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Australias defence force size isnt in question, it is the obligation to at least have a foreign policy that is consistent and has some balls.
on one hand I would probably say that Australia will do whatever the US ask them to (as they always have)
however I don’t think Johnny Howard would want to risk pissing off the Chinese (lots of $$ there)
so who knows
i hope that john howard would help defend taiwan
It’s hard to defend Taiwan when China’s got him bent over and taking it like a man.