Real Crime, Fake Justice - England

Discussion Open Forum
21

No they don’t - whatever gave you that idea?

Which cases - perhaps the police were’nt lying, but got their evidence wrong are mixed up. It does happen - it happened to me several times - of course, the local rag will always opt for the more sensational title of police corruption.
Sure, it happens occasionally but nowhere near 1% of what you would like to think it does. If you get caught, you lose your job. It’s as simple as that.

(Had or has)?

I have the utmost respect for anyone who has the courage to put on a uniform and walk the streets of Manchester. Back-up in this underfunded police force is usually more than 5 minutes away.
You get called every name under the sun. You get spat at. You get things thrown at you. You get people like Cake giving you abuse.
And then - if you dare to arrest someone - you get everything the warped British legal system can throw at you. You get scrutinised and abused by your peers for trying to get people who deserve to be put away sent to jail.

Then you go home. You worry about what is going to happen to your kids at school because your Dad’s a cop. You worry about whether you are going to get home and find your house on fire or a brick on the livingroom carpet.

Fun job, you see, Juba.

But it is OK to criticise from the sidelines, seeing as you have absolutely no idea what the processes involved are really like and how much stress and pressure every individual officer has to put up with every single working day of his or her career.

It doesn’t occur to you that to you that most officers join because they want to make a difference to their community and to the country as a hole. It certainly isn’t a career where you can take money on the side, get people you like locked away because you don’t like them or generally mix with lowlifes and gamblers like they do here in Taiwan.

No mate - if you’re a cop in the UK, you’re on your own. The only people you can rely on for support are your collegues, but if you make a mistake or find yourself in the shit the courts, management and the very tough disciplinary procedures will not give you a second chance.
That’s why I can’t accept your comment that the Manchester force is any more corrupt and racist than Trumpton town. Manchester is held to the same tough guidlines that the rest of the country is held to - you fuck up, you lose your job and in some cases, get sent to the clink.

Who is going to knowingly risk it?

22

Double bubble.

23

Well said

24

I wonder if the same can be said about teachers in England or America now. That the teachers fear for their lives. That they dare not give a bad grade in case of retribution. That every day they are threatened, spat at, verbally abused, by students and parents, just because the teachers want to make a difference. And again don’t say they do it because of the money.

25

Isn’t this the key to it? We need to start filling in the hole not keep digging:lol:

Sorry DM couldn’t resist.

26

That’s quite alright, dear sir.

27

(1) Georgian England at the time was a far more crime ridden and violent place than Blair’s Britian. Bare knuckle fighting, animal baiting, dog fighting etc (including man against dog) was encouraged. Murders rapes and muggings were rampant. Highway men plagued the countryside and thugs wondered the cities at almost free will. Georgian England was hardly ruled by left wing do gooders.

(2) Victorian England was slightly safer than Georgian England . However still far more dangerous than present day Britian. Also a far more authoritarian and stricter set of morality than today. It was also not ruled by left wing do gooders but was still violent.

(3) I have expereinced violence in England. You are still however unlikely to be decapitated in Britain by a maniac. That is why it makes the news. Because it is newsworthy and unusual. As are murders etc
It is annoying however that it is hard to go out for a drink without someone saying “what ya looking at mate ?”

(4) You are more likely to die in a traffic accident in Taiwan than in a street fight or murder in Britain

So i think we should keep things in the proper perspective. Things have got better not worse. Unless of course we compare to the few sunshine years of the early sixties (oh i forgot mods rockers and teddy boys)
p.s.
If you want to unwind from a hard day at the office try the Charles Bronson death wish series you might like them ! dated but still great!

28

[quote=“Dangermouse”]Yep, the government is fucking shite.

Police do their best to prosecute - and lawyers do their best to find a hole in system to get people they know are guilty off the hook.

Police spend hours and hours doing paperwork only to have things thrown out of court for something as little as a spelling mistake.

Police have funds cut year after year, but the funds that go towards bureaucats in Brussels rise every year. Britain’s contribution to the well being of other countries far outweighs its contribution to its own people.

The government is trying to cut the numbers of officers in the police force by a further 25% - Blair would like to replace these with inadequately trained Civilian Patrol officers which have no powers of arrest except for those afforded under common law to normal citizens.
These are cheaper to train, but are next to useless in the role of policing.

It’s going to get far worse.

However, I hear of Britons that have emigrated to Australia, the States, NZ and parts of Europe, and after a couple of years they come back moaning that the only thing in these countries that is different is the weather. The western world is totally fucked.

And I think it’s worth saying here that I hate criminal defence lawyers - you are the scum of the earth and you should be ashamed of yourselves. All of you.[/quote]

I think the UK’s policy 200 years ago was much much better. Find some f’d up island to put them on. Are there any left? Perhaps you can put them on the Falklands?

29

The thing that always frightened me so much about living in Northern England was the increasingly senseless nature of the violence. I lived in what used to be a nice area of Liverpool, but violence has gradually expanded from Toxteth/Granby/Kensington in North Liverpool into the South. A few weeks before I left I saw a gang of 20-odd kids in the early teens throwing bricks through car windows on my previously-nice road. Apparently there are gangs hanging out there almost every night now trying to cause shit and generally intimidate the local residents. Everyone has their theories about why this is happening and I put it down to a combination of easy access to hard drugs, rampant alcoholism, an over-reliance on the state and lack of opportunities for young kids. I know I sound like a boring old man when I say this, but it really killed me to see 12-14 year old kids smoking pot at the back of buses who nobody would tell off because they were probably carrying weapons. I’m sorry, but that’s just completely and utterly wrong. More and more kids are coming from shitty families, living in shitty places, making friends with shitty people, doing shitty jobs and then blanking it all out by blowing all their shitty cash every weekend on as much coke as they can possible stuff up their nose. Their brains get fried, they go out and fight then start it all again the next week. How do you fix it? Beats me, I took the coward’s way out and got the hell out of there.

While England has some major, major sociological problems right now I find it hard to blame the police. I’ve had some bad experiences with the upper echelons of British detectives but the beat police are some of the finest in the world. For any stories about emergency services taking ten hours to arrive I can match it with a story about calling from my cellphone and having a car dispatched before I even have a chance to explain the situation. Working in music you get the odd nutjob and I remember being very impressed about how my local police handled a death threat. They were very professional, took me seriously and offered several options on how they could deal with it. A lot of good people working in a really shitty environment, in my opinion. After living in various countries and seeing bad policing in action, I now appreciate that the British forces are doing a very difficult job and reaching a good compromise between strict enforcement and compassion. It’s a shame that they are so unappreciated and overworked by an increasingly fucked up and lazy British society.

30

The decline in law and order in the UK is going to make hand guns look like an attractive option.

Who decided that kids cannot be prosecuted? It is bizarre that we have come to this anyway. The only reason I wasn’t a complete lost cause when I was young was because the fuzz would have caught me and there would have been punishment involved. It stands to reason that if you take away the punishment element kids will go bersies. Of course they will. Wouldn’t you have loved to smash up a car with a baseball bat as a ten-year-old? I did, but it was an old abandoned car in a wrecker’s yard. I also drove an ancient Peugeot into a brick wall and set a shed on fire. Huge fun! if you’d gone up to a bunch of older lads or grown men and given them lip you’d have got your head kicked in! Being a kid now in an environment of no punishment, no consequences must be brilliant!

Not so good being an adult obviously.

I presume they’re going to abolish the police then? Just give everyone guns like they do in America. If the UK is going to slavishly and mindlessly copy every single aspect of US culture then at least do it properly. A concealed weapon in every pocket might be the answer. Hey - the crims and kids already have them. Funny also to note that the only place in the UK that doesn’t have a blanket ban on hand guns is Northern Ireland (“are ye carryin’?”). Tee hee! (Holy shit!)

31

Why don’t they start drafting them? Aren’t they short of troops in Afganistan? Don’t these kids already pack weapons?

32

Here Here. lets bring the draft back for All Commonwealth countries for anyone under say , erm 35!

33

I think there have been some very good points made in this thread. I grew up with no respect for the police but I have come to a more balanced view in recent years. It’s a completely unforgiving job that quite frankly I don’t think I’d be up to - and it’s so easy for a few rotten apples to make the whole lot stink. Of course there are bad coppers just like there are bad teachers, mechanics and checkout assistants, the thing is that the police are (like teachers) in a position of authority and trust and so when that trust is betrayed (c.f. Steven Lawrence, the undercover expose of racist officers etc.) then it makes the whole force look bad. Having had a couple of friends who have gone into the force for all the right reasons and seeing what they have been through, I can do nothing but applaud the job the vast majority of coppers do.

As has already been said here the problem is not really with high murder rates and the like, it’s more about fear - the perception of the threat of violence and what is disingenuously known as “low-level crime”. I went back to England for a year after spending two in Taiwan and I was really shocked about the behaviour of the Saturday night drinking crowd. After a couple of nights out in Bristol city centre seeing fights, bottles and glasses thrown, people puking in the streets and so on I just gave up going out on the weekend. It’s sad to say, but the only way I’d move back to England would be if I was going to a gentrified city like Oxford, Exeter or York and I could live in the nice part of town. It’s that or the countryside, as far as I’m concerned. The rural areas of the UK (like Devon where I grew up) are still very beautiful, generally safe and offer a relaxed pace of life mostly free from the horrors described above. Live in a big English (or American, or French) city? No thanks.

34

You are right that it is the small anti social crimes that have got really bad. Major crime as i said before has generally declined after the last two hundred years or so. However I think you will find that pubs were very bad back in the past. Certainly in the major cities where ginnism was a major problem. However in the past the middle classes were much smaller and they didn’t have to mix with the lawless idiot rabble. The middle and upper classes also had guns so they could shoot the peasants if they got out of line and also they could send the kids to the workhouses (remember Oliver Twist). After all the British empire was controlled by a small minority of the Biritish ie the upper classes and some of the middle class business people. They would not mix with the rabble unless coming to inspect their factories or seeking a place in heaven by handing out soup.
Same seems to be true of China. Many people who come here and to China say how backward and uncivilised the people are after five thousand years of culture (supposedly 5000 years). However most of the great things in Chinese culture were created by their social elite (nearly always the upper classes) as most of the people were ignorant peasansts that could not read or write. So the beetle nut spitting taxi driver grunting at you about how advanced Taiwan is may not exactly be a good representative of past high Chinese culture. Just as the bottle throwing moron that cannot speak English properly in an English pub is not a good representative of high Britisih culture. Always had these kinds of people in both countries they used to used as cannon fodder but now there is a lack of major wars where thousands of people would get wiped out in one day. Britian also used to use child soldiers LOL
So getting back to the point England has not changed that much, it has in my opinion improved but our perception of fear has increased. As for loud mouthed kids well the police are not always protecting them. There was the group of about 30 kids where i lived who always hung around the local newsagent bad mouthing the grannies and throwing coins at them etc etc. Well a middle aged guy went out with a baseball bat and gave them a good beating. The average ages of the kids was round 16. When he turned himself in the cops said “we have never seen you before don’t do it again, now get out of here”.
As for those Bristol pubs with loud mouthed idiots throwing bottles well a bulldozer comes to mind (with the people evacuated first (well may be).

35

Now there are few places to run to. Last year when I went back I was shocked to see the difference between Oxford during the day and night. What was even worse was that I took the kids to Windsor and the hotel told us not to go out at night because it was dangerous. Drunks etc. As I met my old friends they all complained that they had no money, as they sat in the pub smoking their 5 pound pack of fags and drinking their 3 pound pint. No money, my arse everybody is just pissing it up the wall. And yet every fri and sat they are down the pub. As in Bournemouth it has now changed from the old folks retiring city in to the stag party town. People throwing up everywhere, passed out and all round brawling. When I came to Taiwan and so all the shutters on the doors I was surprised, but going back was even more surprising to see a seaside resort closed up every fri and sat night against the window smashers.

I see as Taiwan is knocking down its walls around parks and universities they are putting them up in England and introducing metal detectors at entrances.

36

The problem is with the judiciary system in England.

There are huge, stupid disparities between the level of punishments for serious and non serious offences.
Take speeding for example. A few miles over the limit and a normal, working class citizen in the UK is likely to have, within days, a fixed penalty notice on their doormat giving them between 3 and 6 points on their licence and a fine of 60 pounds.

However, Johny Burglar breaks into your house, steals your TV and causes 3000 pounds worth of damage and he is given 20 hours community service and a 20 pound fine - usually paid over 3 months.

It is much easier to keep the law abiding middle England people in check - those who work hard - because they are easy targets for the government. Speeding, traffic offences and tax defaults bring in the fines.

The wider, more serious problem of anti social behaviour, theft, burglary and violent crime, while dealt with and processed by the police is largely ignored by the courts.
The “softly softly” approach adopted by most judges just doesn’t work - neither does the “oh well he fell off his rocking horse when he was 5 years old and has been traumatised because of it blah blah blah…” excuse. It just doesn’t wash with me, or the rest of the British public for that matter.

The only way of dealing with the situation the UK faces at the moment is to come down hard on criminals and give them appropriate punishments which fit the crime and until this is done, nothing is going to change. Criminals are not scared of the law. There is no fear and there is no deterrent.

Add to this the Politically Correct garbage which surrounds nearly every case and the fact that you just can’t touch kids - people know that they can get away with murder - and they frequently do.

Unfortunately, when the only contact with the law normal people have is with obscene traffic fines for minor offences, people are becoming less inclined to help the police with their enquiries with more serious crimes. People are going to be more inclined to take the law into their own hands and this will not be a good situation for Britian at all.

Most of the crimes committed today are committed by repeat offenders who never get locked up or punished accordingly. Contrary to popular belief, there are not that many criminals out there - the majority of the crimes are committed by the same few offenders agian and again and again.

What we need is no nonsense, fair policing with judges who give sentences which mirror the crimes comitted.

37

[quote=“Dangermouse”]The problem is with the judiciary system in England.

There are huge, stupid disparities between the level of punishments for serious and non serious offences.
Take speeding for example. A few miles over the limit and a normal, working class citizen in the UK is likely to have, within days, a fixed penalty notice on their doormat giving them between 3 and 6 points on their licence and a fine of 60 pounds.

However, Johny Burglar breaks into your house, steals your TV and causes 3000 pounds worth of damage and he is given 20 hours community service and a 20 pound fine - usually paid over 3 months.

It is much easier to keep the law abiding middle England people in check - those who work hard - because they are easy targets for the government. Speeding, traffic offences and tax defaults bring in the fines.

The wider, more serious problem of anti social behaviour, theft, burglary and violent crime, while dealt with and processed by the police is largely ignored by the courts.
The “softly softly” approach adopted by most judges just doesn’t work - neither does the “oh well he fell off his rocking horse when he was 5 years old and has been traumatised because of it blah blah blah…” excuse. It just doesn’t wash with me, or the rest of the British public for that matter.

The only way of dealing with the situation the UK faces at the moment is to come down hard on criminals and give them appropriate punishments which fit the crime and until this is done, nothing is going to change. Criminals are not scared of the law. There is no fear and there is no deterrent.

Add to this the Politically Correct garbage which surrounds nearly every case and the fact that you just can’t touch kids - people know that they can get away with murder - and they frequently do.

Unfortunately, when the only contact with the law normal people have is with obscene traffic fines for minor offences, people are becoming less inclined to help the police with their enquiries with more serious crimes. People are going to be more inclined to take the law into their own hands and this will not be a good situation for Britian at all.

Most of the crimes committed today are committed by repeat offenders who never get locked up or punished accordingly. Contrary to popular belief, there are not that many criminals out there - the majority of the crimes are committed by the same few offenders agian and again and again.

What we need is no nonsense, fair policing with judges who give sentences which mirror the crimes comitted.[/quote]

Im gonna agree with every single word you wrote above.
Blair is supposedly doing something about it…

38

[quote=“Dangermouse”]The problem is with the judiciary system in England.

There are huge, stupid disparities between the level of punishments for serious and non serious offences.[/quote]

Is that because the judges have a wide scope of discretion in sentencing, or because the laws mandate such punishments?

If the former, then yes, it would seem a judicial problem… but, if the latter it would seem a problem with the legislature.

39

Discretion.

Theft can carry a maximum of 5 years. Robbery 10 years and Burglary 8.

In reality, theft carries a slapped wrist and a “don’t do it again.” Robbery, perhaps a fine and a 2 week stint in jail and burglary a 25 pound fine and a stern telling off by the judge’s mother before being sent to bed without dinner.

Of course, you have to re-offend about 10 times before you even get close to receiving the harsh punishments mentioned above. First and second time offenders often get let off with a suspended sentence and a warning.

ASBO’s are just a cheap alternative to putting kids into youth detention centres. They don’t work because they can’t be monitored 24/7.
ASBO’s forbid any youth currently on the program to go on certain premises or within a certain range of particualr individuals this person has harrassed.
Unfortunately, they just go and harrass other people and commit crime on other premises. ASBO’s just follow them around.
It’s another form of the softly softly approach.

40

[quote=“Lord Lucan”]The decline in law and order in the UK is going to make hand guns look like an attractive option.

Who decided that kids cannot be prosecuted? It is bizarre that we have come to this anyway. The only reason I wasn’t a complete lost cause when I was young was because the fuzz would have caught me and there would have been punishment involved. It stands to reason that if you take away the punishment element kids will go bersies. Of course they will. Wouldn’t you have loved to smash up a car with a baseball bat as a ten-year-old? I did, but it was an old abandoned car in a wrecker’s yard. I also drove an ancient Peugeot into a brick wall and set a shed on fire. Huge fun! if you’d gone up to a bunch of older lads or grown men and given them lip you’d have got your head kicked in! Being a kid now in an environment of no punishment, no consequences must be brilliant!

Not so good being an adult obviously.

I presume they’re going to abolish the police then? Just give everyone guns like they do in America. If the UK is going to slavishly and mindlessly copy every single aspect of US culture then at least do it properly. A concealed weapon in every pocket might be the answer. Hey - the crims and kids already have them. Funny also to note that the only place in the UK that doesn’t have a blanket ban on hand guns is Northern Ireland (“are ye carryin’?”). Tee hee! (Holy shit!)[/quote]

What hyperbole! :bravo:
I have never owned a gun, neither did my father. I do have a few brothers who like to deer hunt, but they didn’t do it when we were kids - no guns in our home. I would guess that 80-90% of my neighbors were the same as our family. Just the other day, my dad came by my house to let a few contractors in to do some work. He noted that my front door was unbolted and unlocked - must’ve been that way for several days - I didn’t have any problems. The stuff you’re talking about in the U.S. happens in poor inner-city neighborhoods. It is unfortunate, but true. But the vast majority of Americans live in safe, non-violent neighborhoods. And, I’d venture to guess that is probably true of the majority of Britain as well. You all, the whole lot of you, are engaging in a contest of hyperbole. I’m sure there are problems, serious ones, there are in any society in the world. I doubt the sky is falling, however.

Bodo