Religion and Violence

[color=#0000FF]Please note that this thread has been split from a discussion on racism in Taiwan, [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/are-taiwanese-people-racist/67791/1 here[/url]. [/color]

Not completely true. Many muslims have been killed by their families or others for turning their backs on their religion.

I dont think as many Buddhists or Christians suffer this fate in todays world. In the past perhaps.

Not completely true. Many muslims have been killed by their families or others for turning their backs on their religion.

I don’t think as many Buddhists or Christians suffer this fate in todays world. In the past perhaps.[/quote]

Indeed! Apostasy is a crime in many Muslim countries, and even punishable by death in some Muslim states, such as Iran. Hence, many people born into Islam do not have the choice of formally disaffiliating from it, unless they are willing to accept the direst consequences for so doing.

It’s still a choice though. There have been plenty of times in history when people have faced undesirable consequences for certain choices. That’s why people migrate or have revolutions. Anyway, the original point about Muslims was about them facing prejudice in the West. No one is going to stop them from leaving Islam in the West. As such, my original assertion that a black (American) can’t chose whether he or she is black but a Muslim (American) can, still stands.

Also, the fact that Buddhists and Christians don’t suffer the same consequences for apostasy probably indicates that as religions go, those are far more civilised religions.

The current forms of Christianity definitely seems more civilised, going back to the Spanish inquisition I doubt the heretics would agree with us though. I guess most religions have modernised but Islam hasn’t, that’s probably the crux of it.

Well, at its heart, Islam was founded by a violent man. Christianity and Buddhism weren’t. Quite the opposite. Regardless, much of modern Christianity is essentially a glorified Sunday market/cake baking competition. As an atheist, I’m no fan of Catholicism or Anglicanism, but at least they’ve had the good grace to become largely an irrelevant joke and move over so science and secular humanism can assume their proper role. Not so with Islam and some forms of Christianity, which is why I regard those things with complete disdain. Having spent the past few hundred years doing our best to defang Christianity, we should not be welcoming Islam into our midst as something worthy of respect. It’s not. It’s completely antithetical to the modern world. As such, it should be challenged and mocked at every turn for being the product of a backward, and hopefully by-gone, age.

While completely forgetting that many Moslems are the most hospitable, warm and welcoming people you could wish to meet. And I speak as a Jew, by the way. I am not in position to have a theological argument (although your claim that Mohammed was a violent man needs to be backed up)- but talking about mocking a religion without any regards for the people that follow it seems very wrong indeed.

Well, there are different types and intensities of Islam. Just as Christianity has its Eric Rudolphs, Timothy McVeighs and Fred Phelpses, Islam also has its nutters who believe killing and hatred are virtues. But Christanity also has plenty of great people who wouldn’t dream of hurting anyone; the same is true with Islam.

The problem is religious extremism/fundamentalism, not the religions themselves.

Didn’t jaysus flip out and violently smash up a nightmarket or something?

Ah yes finally the off-topic spiral into religion. This pleases me.

Sure, why not. What’s racism without a god willing to fight for it on your side? :thumbsup:

I disagree entirely.
I think that religion in general is the single most damaging entity to the human race and is the one single thing that keeps humans from advancing and working together as a single unit, and as such, deserves a hell of a lot more than a mocking.
Of course, mocking people that choose to follow a religion is wrong - but saying that mocking a concept is wrong - and when it comes down to it, that’s all religion is, regardless of how many millions of people believe in this concept - is unreasonable.

I disagree entirely.
I think that religion in general is the single most damaging entity to the human race and is the one single thing that keeps humans from advancing and working together as a single unit, and as such, deserves a hell of a lot more than a mocking.
Of course, mocking people that choose to follow a religion is wrong - but saying that mocking a concept is wrong - and when it comes down to it, that’s all religion is, regardless of how many millions of people believe in this concept - is unreasonable.[/quote]

How is mocking the people that follow it because they follow it any different to mocking the belief that they follow? :ponder:
But anyway good post and I mostly agree.

I disagree entirely.
I think that religion in general is the single most damaging entity to the human race and is the one single thing that keeps humans from advancing and working together as a single unit, and as such, deserves a hell of a lot more than a mocking.
Of course, mocking people that choose to follow a religion is wrong - but saying that mocking a concept is wrong - and when it comes down to it, that’s all religion is, regardless of how many millions of people believe in this concept - is unreasonable.[/quote]

Hmmm. Personally, although Jewish by birth and upbringing, I am an atheist, with similar views to you about religion and its negative effect on civilisation. But that doesn’t mean that I am going to mock others who decide to follow the “path of God”. It’s their choice, and if it makes them happy then who am I to criticise them, as long as they don’t hurt others. I am happy to mock my own religion by the way, in a light-hearted kind of way.

I am beginning to sound like Tommy now, time for me to go to bed.

[quote=“fenlander”]How is mocking the people that follow it because they follow it any different to mocking the belief that they follow? :ponder:
But anyway good post and I mostly agree.
[/quote]

[quote=“pgdaddy”]But that doesn’t mean that I am going to mock others who decide to follow the “path of God”. It’s their choice, and if it makes them happy then who am I to criticise them, as long as they don’t hurt others. I am happy to mock my own religion by the way, in a light-hearted kind of way.

[/quote]

I think you can draw similarities between religion and the Loch Ness Monster. Now, I don’t believe for one minute that there is a giant reptilian creature gracing the depths of this famous Scottish body of water any more than I believe that there is some old guy wish a wispy beard gracing the heavens. I mock the very idea of Nessy. However, that doesn’t mean to say that I mock the millions of people who believe Nessy exists. On the contrary, as with people who hold a religious belief, I take their reasoning seriously and I am interested in why they believe in what they believe. I also take great interest in some of the cultures of religion, and have a great respect for the devotion of people who follow a particular belief. Also, I hold great respect for the amazing architecture and feats of engineering borne out of religion which, over millennia, have given millions of people around the world enjoyment and representation.
But the very idea that one can place such trust, faith and belief in an unproven entity, in an era where such things as drought, famine, lightning, flooding and the nights drawing in can be explained through the use of science, has always struck me as bizarre.

Goodnight, Tommy.

[quote=“Super Hans”][quote=“fenlander”]How is mocking the people that follow it because they follow it any different to mocking the belief that they follow? :ponder:
But anyway good post and I mostly agree.
[/quote]

[quote=“pgdaddy”]But that doesn’t mean that I am going to mock others who decide to follow the “path of God”. It’s their choice, and if it makes them happy then who am I to criticise them, as long as they don’t hurt others. I am happy to mock my own religion by the way, in a light-hearted kind of way.

[/quote]

I think you can draw similarities between religion and the Loch Ness Monster. Now, I don’t believe for one minute that there is a giant reptilian creature gracing the depths of this famous Scottish body of water any more than I believe that there is some old guy wish a wispy beard gracing the heavens. I mock the very idea of Nessy. However, that doesn’t mean to say that I mock the millions of people who believe Nessy exists. On the contrary, as with people who hold a religious belief, I take their reasoning seriously and I am interested in why they believe in what they believe. I also take great interest in some of the cultures of religion, and have a great respect for the devotion of people who follow a particular belief. Also, I hold great respect for the amazing architecture and feats of engineering borne out of religion which, over millennia, have given millions of people around the world enjoyment and representation.
But the very idea that one can place such trust, faith and belief in an unproven entity, in an era where such things as drought, famine, lightning, flooding and the nights drawing in can be explained through the use of science, has always struck me as bizarre.

Goodnight, Tommy.[/quote]
Nice post.
I remember once saying to a born again Christian "I believe in fairies". He said “that is stupid”. I said “so is to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and is the son of God”. He said “no it is not that is a religion and is totally different”. I said “I agree with you about the first part that believing in Fairies is stupid”.

Religion is the problem though. Okay, we can look at the wonderful architecture, music or anything else inspired by it, but good architecture and music don’t need to be inspired by God. Once we remove all of the hocus pocus and killing of homosexuals, infidels or any other minority, we can still have a system of ethics that resembles secular humanism in a remarkable way. All the rest is bad science and hate speech. If I were to publish a secular book and found a secular organisation based upon the crap in these religious books, I’d be branded a nutter. Once I got a few hundred followers, I’d be branded a dangerous nutter and probably arrested. If I had one billion followers, I’d be taken seriously. People engage in a complete suspension of disbelief when they regard the world’s major religions.

pgdaddy: Mohammed was a warrior. This is common knowledge.

I disagree entirely.
I think that religion in general is the single most damaging entity to the human race and is the one single thing that keeps humans from advancing and working together as a single unit, and as such, deserves a hell of a lot more than a mocking.
Of course, mocking people that choose to follow a religion is wrong - but saying that mocking a concept is wrong - and when it comes down to it, that’s all religion is, regardless of how many millions of people believe in this concept - is unreasonable.[/quote]
I think that selfishness is the single most damaging entity to the human race. In the name of progress, we have polluted the planet and screwed everything up we have.
I think that people who live here, and I know a few, who are continuously on the wrong side of the law and always complain about how things work here, should maybe for once look at themselves. What they consider to be damaging and bad might be made better if they stop thinking the world revolves around them. It’s the sun, whether you are religious or not.
I think people who have children and then endanger them through their behavior and selfishness should not be blessed with having them, and they should be mocked. It’s easy to complain about not letting them wear helmets, but dangerous driving from some of the foreigners I have seen here when there are children in the car or doing something stupid like going to the beach when there is a storm or a typhoon because daddy wants to surf, is worse.
So there we go, selfishness, self-righteousness and irresposibility. These are mockable sins. Religion? Hardly.

If you think it is more correct to say the earth revolves around the sun than the earth revolves around you, then you don’t understand Relativity.

The first leads to much simpler orbital mathematics, but it isn’t more correct.

Wouldn’t you agree that the epitome of selfishness is religion? In the name of progress, governments have used religion as a tool of war for eons. Religion has made a sin all that is enjoyable for the human race. Religions have persecuted millions for the pleasure of one single entity - that of god.
People around the world follow blindly a god that rewards its followers by taking away loved ones, causing pain and suffering to millions through famine and drought and illness. By randomly choosing people to have car crashes and giving them a life of pain and suffering. It rewards children who are yet unborn to into this world and who have as yet done nothing wrong a life of misery through aids, cancer, disfigurement and deformity or a hole in the heart.
It has scared people into compliance and still does, especially in places like the middle east.
Religion is the biggest representation of self righteousness imaginable. It is irresponsible in the worldwide wars and deaths and diseases that it perpetuates. It is irresponsible in that it gives millions around the world a false sense of hope and has deluded people into following a cause which promises paradise. a heaven or virgins in return for a lifetime dedication to worship.

People are naturally selfish and there is no denying that - it comes together with the survival skills required for being a mammal. I’m curious as to why you specifically mention foreigners in your post.

Wouldn’t you agree that the epitome of selfishness is religion? In the name of progress, governments have used religion as a tool of war for eons. Religion has made a sin all that is enjoyable for the human race. Religions have persecuted millions for the pleasure of one single entity - that of god.
People around the world follow blindly a god that rewards its followers by taking away loved ones, causing pain and suffering to millions through famine and drought and illness. By randomly choosing people to have car crashes and giving them a life of pain and suffering. It rewards children who are yet unborn to into this world and who have as yet done nothing wrong a life of misery through aids, cancer, disfigurement and deformity or a hole in the heart.
It has scared people into compliance and still does, especially in places like the middle east.
Religion is the biggest representation of self righteousness imaginable. It is irresponsible in the worldwide wars and deaths and diseases that it perpetuates. It is irresponsible in that it gives millions around the world a false sense of hope and has deluded people into following a cause which promises paradise. a heaven or virgins in return for a lifetime dedication to worship.

People are naturally selfish and there is no denying that - it comes together with the survival skills required for being a mammal. I’m curious as to why you specifically mention foreigners in your post.[/quote]
All that you have posted attacks religion on a philisophical level. There are arguments for and against what you have said but you aren’t interested in that are you?
Charity starts at home and I mentioned foreigners because they are the people who annoy me the most because of their self-righteous BS.
People who buy sofas or computers from friends and then have to be begged to actually pay for the stuff because they just don’t pay what they owe. I have never had that problem with a Taiwanese friend and don’t know any who have.
I have never met a foreign girl who got pregnant with a Taiwanese guy and then the guy fails to live up to his responsibility but I have met many foreigners who have. Granted I have seen many Taiwanese men being total pricks but just like the foreigners they are always those who seem to complain the most.
I have met many girls who got pregnant with a foreign guy and then the guy just insists on an abortion (and bitches about how many abortions are done in Taiwan the next day in the pub) or just starts treating the girl like shit. I have also met some couples here where the foreigner got treated badly but guess what, they complain less and try harder than the high horse idiots I have to listen to some times. When they see their kids you can be sure they act responsibly, stay away from dangerous activities like drinking and driving or the likes and make the most of what they have.
I have also never met a Taiwanese person who continuously cries over how bad religion is while there own life is in tatters but I have met many foreigners who do.
Pardon if I upset you. I’m sure you stay on the right side of the law, treat your family well and act responsibly, but there are way to many people who don’t and cry the moment things don’t go their way. There are so many more things wrong with the world than religion.
WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with religion.
Global warming has nothing to do with religion (unless you feel that it might be a political farce or that God is punishing us)
Religion does not deserve the bad reputation it is getting and many people thing they sound smart of they knock it, but then so be it. I totally disagree with your take on it. I feel there are more important issues at hand and you don’t seem to have responded to what I said in my previous post and I am sure that this will fall into some anti-religion chat long before you or anyone reply to what I said in this post.