Religious Forumosans?

On matters of religion I draw inspiration from Frank Zappa

Beware of the fish people, they are the true enemy.
– Frank Zappa

You’ve got to be digging it while it’s happening 'cause it just might be a one shot deal.
– Frank Zappa

The whole Universe is a large joke.
Everything in the Universe are just subdivisions of this joke.
So why take anything too serious.
– Frank Zappa

Those Jesus Freaks
Well, they’re friendly but
The shit they believe
Has got their minds all shut
An’ they don’t even care
When the church takes a cut
Ain’t it bleak when you got so much nothin’
– Frank Zappa, “The Meek Shall Inherit Nothin’” ††

I’m a Christian, and I go to church from time to time. I’ll probably go more often when my daughter is old enough to go to Sunday School. Religion is an imperfect expression of spirituality, but I think that just being human prevents us from ever achieving any kind of perfection.

Good read. Thanks for the link.

Frank is definitely some kind of higher, more evolved being. Although he’d have been the first to have denied it.

Actually, I strive to be like Frank in my daily life. Could Frank be some kind of supreme being? What are the criteria?

The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn’t asked any questions.
– Frank Zappa

There is no Hell, there is only France.
–Frank Zappa

I don’t know what the criteria is, but he has sound advice on how to raise a child:

My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can.
– Frank Zappa

Between the ages of 6 and 15 I went to church every week. Around the same time I stopped going I realized I had absolutely no idea about any other faiths, deities, interpretations or beliefs. In fact, I didn’t even know that other religions even existed or that other people prayed to a different God. Church (and I was a regular at quite a few) had narrowed my spirituality, not broadened it.

I haven’t been back to church since- and I wonder if the organization still has its head firmly up its ass.

More generally, seeing as religion has caused so much conflict, pain and misery throughout history (which they didn’t teach me about either), I prefer to distance myself from it altogether.

Nah, religion is simply an expression of our deepest feelings about the things we can’t explain. Religion is an expression of our conflict, pain and misery, not a cause.

People slaughter others because they want to. We are a mixture of unspeakable darkness and joy. We create beautiful arias, sailing boats, Taj mahals, but we also create the killing fields of Cambodia and the Nazi ovens. Religion doesn’t create anything evil, and it doesn’t justify it because no-one’s listening anyway. Humans are deeply evil on so many levels and religions help people to submerge that, too.

Do you feel that by ‘joining’ a religion, you end up belonging to that ‘tribe’ and adding legitimacy to their mainstream views? I suppose when you join in, you do.

I dunno. I’m not really arguing here, or challenging anyone’s beliefs. This could be an interesting thread.

A former active Mormon, I’m now decidedly non-religious. Though I feel very little in the way of bitterness about my past as a Mormon, I can’t imagine getting involved in any form of organized religion again. I’m pretty sure that God is a fantasy, and I’m undecided on the question of a spiritual identity.

Of the two people I admire most in life, one of them is a practicing (though “non-literal”) Mormon, and one is very spiritual, a new ager of sorts. Both of these people are highly intelligent, which leads me to believe that there may be something to a belief in spiritual things.

The opposite of ‘organised religion’:

‘Crap. Riesling?’

[quote=“Buttercup”]The opposite of ‘organised religion’:

‘Crap. Riesling?’[/quote]
I agree.
Riesling is crap. Only old hounds drink white whine.
I shall indeed look forward to it one day.

Religion: Haven’t decided Yet. Read most of the main tenets. Am rather leaning towards agonistic, as i’m not sure i want to rear my kids in anything but a neutral fashion with regards to The Power(s) that be.

Wot if I wuz wrong? :noway:
That just wouldn’t do.
I’ll show 'em the signs, and the literature, but they are free to take up their own path.
And that’s how i’d like to think religion should be: a path, or a trail.
As opposed to an interstate or a hub.

These are of course, only my own wacked opinions… :charliebrown:

I was shipped on the church bus every Sunday from the time I was four years old until I was fifteen, perhaps to gain a Christian upbringing, but mostly so my mom could sleep in and sleep with her man in our absence.

I recited Bible verses from memory (if not by heart), honed my quiz master skills on Bible lore, attended overnight prayer meetings, participated in youth group activities and picnics, recruited friends and young family members to attend church with me, carried around my hard-won white leather bible with the gilded page edges and Christ’s speech in blood red, led prayers, put in prayer requests for people I knew, acted in pageants, and even wore really cool shirts that espoused Christian beliefs in a pop culture parody way (like the “Eternity: Smoking or Non-Smoking?” one) to school so people could see that I was a Christian.

Albeit it, one who tormented her little sister and got into fistfights at school, but was a perfect angel every Sunday. I even almost believed them when the youth pastor told us that those who refused to eat certain foods such as pork or even meat for their beliefs were really in league with Satan because he was able to point out Bible passages that proved it. I signed a pledge to be a virgin until I was married and to tell my promiscuous friends that “I could be like one of them anytime, but they could never be a virgin like me again.”

Then a certain incident happened that I don’t like to talk about. My mother excused me from going to church again after it came out what was being taught there.

I floated around, never an atheist, but unreligious, and deriding God until I got rejected for an invitation to Homecoming by my friend Luay in the 11th grade. He told me he was flattered being asked out by me, but it was against his religion because he was a Muslim. We started chatting about religion, as he was a youth leader in the mosque and even did the call to prayer with his very beautiful voice (he demonstrated for one of our classes). Instead of being dejected about being turned down, I became interested and with a couple that were also friends with Luay, went to the mosque with him a few times. We all eventually converted to Islam. It just made more sense to me than many of the things I had been taught in my Christian upbringing.

And, scoff as some of you might, I found Muslims to be far more tolerant of other religions than Christians were. Luay’s mother took me in as one of her own daughters. She had one daughter-in-law who converted to Islam despite Raqib, Luay’s older brother, insisting it was unnecessary. I worked with Raqib when he was a security guard at the store where I spent my summers and he went on to become a police officer. Both brothers were absolutely hilarious and fun to be around.

I remember one day Brother Mike, the lead pastor of my former church’s youth group, bumped into me at the store where I worked a few months after my conversion to Islam. He asked me why didn’t I go to Sunday School anymore. I told him that I wasn’t a Christian anymore. “Oh?” he asked. “You can always come back, you know. We miss you. Jesus loves you.”
“I’m a Muslim now,” I informed him.
“Hmph. I’ll pray for your soul that you choose not to burn in hell for eternity,” he said disgustedly and walked away without another word.
I called, “Sala’am alaikum.” but I doubt he would have cared to hear such “pagan” words. I was saddened that he reacted so hatefully.
This was the same man who came to visit me in the hospital when I was diagnosed with cancer and got all of my youth group to sign a huge posterboard-sized “get well” card.

I lasted as a practicing Muslim, even wearing the head scarf to school, for about 4 years. Then I began to realize that I hate rituals and traditions. While I still refer to myself as Muslim in the pure sense of the word “one who submits to God”, I believe myself to be more of a numberian. I never found God inside a church or a mosque, but the more I learned about numbers and abstract math, the more I found perfection in the connections between numbers and nature, music, language, evolutionary trends, physics, and chemistry. I never strayed from believing in God, but I had finally found Him in the fact that everything in the universe is so well-structured that it is impossible for it to have all happened randomly.

Plus I have a weakness for bacon and ham which doesn’t mesh well for being Muslim. I have given up shellfish (and invertebrates in general) pretty much. And if someone asks me my religion, I still more closely associate myself with the four years of being a Muslim than the fifteen-plus years of being raised a Christian. But in my heart of hearts, I simply believe in God without all the pomp and circumstance that religion seems to require to disrupt one’s relationship with God.

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]Hey, PP, you’re free to your opinion, but I’d like to understand your PoV a little better. I understand how someone can think belief in something as complex as God or gods without proof. But I don’t understand your statements below. Could you elaborate on them?

I don’t understand how you say that. From what I know of the world religions, they all look to the immensity, complexity, and beauty of the universe with wonder.

Do you mean because they don’t think it is random? That life is more beautiful because we’re just so lucky it happened this way?[/quote]
First thing: there’s absolutely nothing complex about “God or gods.” Apologists for religion love to wax lyrically about the sublime nature of religious belief, but at the end of the day you’re still talking about an anthropomorphic guy “up there” or wherever who deigns to listen to your “prayers.” It’s simple, actually: believe in Jesus or whoever and you shall have everlasting life. Nothing complicated here: “I am your God,” and all that.

Second thing, the immensity of the cosmos is so incredibly awe-inspiring that pontificating that “God” knows how many hairs are on the head of each and every hedgehog, or however that ridiculous passage in the Bible goes, sounds like the sort of thing you’d blush at once you graduate from kindergarten. Creation myth? The great flood? The resurrection? Best current estimates put humans at some 200,000 years old, living on a ball that we figure must be about 4.5 billion years old and upon which the oceans will dry up in about 1.1 billion years due to the eventual increased luminosity of the sun. Human life will most likely end as we know it far sooner than that. We’re so isolated from everything around us it’s as if we’re a tennis ball at the goal at one end of a football field, and Jupiter is a pea at the other end (might not be that accurate, but you get the idea of the metaphor). These are vast and enormous ideas that you can only contemplate with humbled awe. And people want to ruminate over the passages of a book written two thousand years ago in order to have a personal relationship with a bearded guy in the sky? We know a lot more about the sky than we did two thousand years ago, unfortunately: Where in the sky might the bearded guy be located? Does he or she or it exist consistent with the laws of physics as we currently understand them? Maybe in a different dimension?

Religion is trivial. There are much more astounding notions to contemplate, such as the immensity of the cosmos and the confounding, abstract and even heart-breaking nature of human consciousness.

Oh, I understand about the comfort of religion when times are tough. Though I’ve never derived comfort from religion myself, I’ve seen it in those around me. And this is an anonymous discussion forum, so obviously I stopped spouting like this in real life back when I was 22–any number of my aunts, uncles and cousins would descend upon me with a “laying on of hands” and days and nights of prayers for my soul if they ever knew my true feelings on religion. So, rest assured, the perceived pomposity of this post stays in this post.

Most religious books are not intended to teach about all aspects of the universe. They aren’t intended to be compediums of all knowledge. They’re written to include stories to build faith and to express wisdom.

So, what’s your point on this one?

Honestly, I’m looking to understand, not attack or contradict.[/quote]
The religious books may not be intended to encompass “all knowledge,” but they certainly pontificate upon every aspect of life, and they get most of it wrong. Perhaps the best that can be said is that certain stories in the Bible grasp psychological truths that have somewhat stood the test of time (the prodigal son, etc.). But then, these are just stories. Appreciated as such, they are indeed enriching. But should they form the basis of a belief in a bearded guy somewhere in the “heavens?”

That’s trivial.

ImaniOU: Fantastic post, and one with which I can find only one issue:

I think this is an issue of people and environment, not religion. It’s fairly plain that there are many places in the world where Muslims are far, far from tolerant of other religions. Ditto Christians. Ditto anything you like.

As a rule, the majority religion in any given place will tend to be bigoted and idiotic, and the minority religions will tend to be more open and accepting because they have to be.

Buttercup got it exactly right when she mentioned tribes. Everyone in the world - including me, including you - wants to feel like they’re a part of something. That means drawing a line between “us” and “them”. Without the line, without the distinction, there is no “us” and so there is no sense of belonging and community.

Tribalism explains pretty much everything, everywhere.

Distilled to its essence, this is the message.

Distilled to its essence, this is the message.[/quote]
Yeah.

Wonderful post ImaniOU.

[quote=“Brendon”]ImaniOU: Fantastic post, and one with which I can find only one issue:

I think this is an issue of people and environment, not religion. It’s fairly plain that there are many places in the world where Muslims are far, far from tolerant of other religions. Ditto Christians. Ditto anything you like.[/quote]

I have to second Imaniou on that, brandon. Most of my interaction with Islam has come from dealing with people from Arabic nations and never once have I felt a hostility from them when it comes to discussing religion that I’ve encountered with fellow Catholics and Christians. I’ve been thinking about converting for years. I assume that when it’s my time I will.

I hear ya Imaniou on the swine part–Thank Allah for Turkey Bacon :laughing:

[quote=“Brendon”]ImaniOU: Fantastic post, and one with which I can find only one issue:

I think this is an issue of people and environment, not religion. It’s fairly plain that there are many places in the world where Muslims are far, far from tolerant of other religions. Ditto Christians. Ditto anything you like.

As a rule, the majority religion in any given place will tend to be bigoted and idiotic, and the minority religions will tend to be more open and accepting because they have to be.

Buttercup got it exactly right when she mentioned tribes. Everyone in the world - including me, including you - wants to feel like they’re a part of something. That means drawing a line between “us” and “them”. Without the line, without the distinction, there is no “us” and so there is no sense of belonging and community.

Tribalism explains pretty much everything, everywhere.[/quote]

Spent a lot of time in the Islamic world, have you? Read much of the Koran?

I’m sure there are plenty of examples of moslems being intolerant, just as there are plenty of examples of people who call themselves christians being intolerant, or stupid. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that Islam is bigoted and idiotic whenever it is the majority religion. Most of ther moslems I ever met in moslem countries understood the words of the prophet when he said that we all find out own ways express our religious sense and that there is no one true religion. (Which is a different thing from the one true God, however you experience it.) Religious tolerance is an integral part of Islam, not something forced onto the church by secular authorities as it is in western countries.

While I disagree with that assertion, it’s really beside the point. You said that religion “utterly trivializes” the complexity of the universe. Nothing you said explains that point of view. Most religions find the complexity of life, the fragility of our existence, and the sheer improbability of existence as we understand it to be enormously immense and worthy of exploration.

How does a belief in God or gods trivialize this complexity? I don’t see that at all.

As for your contempt for the concept of God, I completely understand, but think you are trivializing things a bit yourself. I’m really just asking about these two statements.

Not sure if this exactly answers my question, but perhaps it’s applicable. You seem to be saying that a belief in omniscience (even relative omniscience) makes it seem that universe’s complexity is a trivial problem. Is that right?

You are mixing up a lot of arguments here, none really relevant I think to what I was asking you. You’re caught up on details and interpretations, and over-generalizing about religious people.

The point is, you don’t believe in the existence of omniscience or omnipotence, so anything that would use either of these concepts is immediately rejected by you. I totally get the invisible unicorn concept.

But I still don’t see why you feel the way you do about religion trivializing things or why you think progress in science and society has any bearing on the value of religion.

You think that religion is anything other than exactly that?

Can you give me an example of something that religion got wrong? I mean, something that is absolutely proven beyond any doubt, and not subject to interpretation. Where does religion contradict practiality and reality? I’d like some specific examples.

If you don’t mind.

Hmm, but doesn’t that defeat the point? When you’re interacting with them they are out in an non Muslim environment. I think you have to interact with them when they perceive themselves to be in their home Muslim environment for Brandon’s argument to apply.

I actually think Brandon has a very good point. It’s not that Muslims are any more tolerant or less tolerant on the whole. It’s about the culture and society that they come from and exist in.

Some Christian communities are very accepting of people with other thoughts and beliefs. Others are incredibly closed. Buddhists are often thought of as very open by nature, but there are plenty of social groups within Buddhism where dissension is not accepted and outsiders are not welcome. Religion is really not the cause of the openess or closedness.

Religions can have a tenet that basically says, “We’re right about this, and if you don’t agree then you must be wrong.” But that doesn’t mean they can’t be open to discussion and willing to listen and be far more than tolerant of others who disagree with them on that issue. Another religion can have a tenet that says, “It doesn’t matter what you believe, as long as you are doing your best, it’s all good.” But then, they might be completely unwilling to discuss or consider the idea that a particular way of something is absolutely right and there is no other way.

I don’t really think Imani was saying that Muslims are tolerant of all religions, but just expressing that they can be very tolerant. And I think Brandon agreed, but it sounded like he disagreed since he was emphasizing contrast in the majority of his post.

One’s god is a manifestation of one’s own level of consciousness.

Staring blankly at pretty much anything and feeling great peace in doing so is as close to communicating with the head cheese that I can muster.

Trying to group human beans together to worship any single representation of any one “god” was a mistake.

We dumb, but we ain’t that dumb. And sooner or later we all figure that out.