Remembering the past

It’s almost too painful to contemplate this at this time, but…here goes…

[quote]What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children – not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women – not merely peace in our time but peace for all time"…

…“The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war. We do not want a war. We do not now expect a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough – more than enough – of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just. We are not helpless before that task or hopeless of its success. Confident and unafraid, we labor on – not toward a strategy of annihilation but toward a strategy of peace.”

June 10, 1963
Commencement Address at American University in Washington,
John Fitzgerald Kennedy [/quote]

and as a ripost we launched the “peaceful” Bay of Pigs

Not to mention Kennedy’s kickoff of the Vietnam War.

The more that has been revealed about his real legacy – as opposed to the “Saint JFK” image that was created in the wake of his assassination – the more I think Oswald did the U.S. a favor.

It’s the lucky death…

You die before it becomes clear just how badly things are screwed up and your family and/or history makes you a hero.

A good example (other than JFK) is Lincoln - luckily he died just before reconstruction could fail.

[quote=“Elegua”]It’s the lucky death…

You die before it becomes clear just how badly things are screwed up and your family and/or history makes you a hero.

A good example (other than JFK) is Lincoln - luckily he died just before reconstruction could fail.[/quote]
Lincoln tried to arrange things to prevent retaliation against the South; if he’d stayed alive, he might have been able to stop the worst of it, and things may have been somewhat better.

His biggest failure, though, was the war itself. The best plan I’ve heard of was that he simply could have forced a buyout of the slaves – this would have ended slavery without the destruction and bitterness that the Civil War caused, and which was in large part what led to segregation and “poll taxes” and all the rest.

As an institution, slavery was doomed in any case; regardless of any other argument, it was simply uneconomical. My ancestors recognized that even before the Revolutionary War.

:astonished:

So only if Lincoln had bought out all the slaves, then all those white Southerners would have suddenly said, “Aww, shucks, let’s give them the right to vote now. And they can use the same restrooms as we do. Hell, one of them black folks can even marry my daughter.” But because of all those evil carpetbaggers keeping the honest, God-loving white man down, they had no choice but to take it out black people for the next hundred years?

Is that the history they teach down South? Because it’s hell of a lot different than the history they teach up in New England.

:astonished:

So only if Lincoln had bought out all the slaves, then all those white Southerners would have suddenly said, “Aww, shucks, let’s give them the right to vote now. And they can use the same restrooms as we do. Hell, one of them black folks can even marry my daughter.” But because of all those evil carpetbaggers keeping the honest, God-loving white man down, they had no choice but to take it out black people for the next hundred years?

Is that the history they teach down South? Because it’s hell of a lot different than the history they teach up in New England.[/quote]
That’s because it’s not history, it’s conjecture. And no doubt the elitist asshole attitude of the damn New England Yankees plays into it, too.

Which would have cost less, forcing a buyout of a bunch of slaves or killing 400,000 people and destroying the country’s economy for four years?

Do you believe that the good white folk of the South would have been less embittered, and hence would have taken things out on the blacks less, if such events as Sherman’s March to the Sea had not happened, but instead they were compensated for their economic losses under a forced buyout and were told that they’d just have to learn to live with paying wages instead of using slave labor?

[quote=“MaPoSquid”]Not to mention Kennedy’s kickoff of the Vietnam War.
The more that has been revealed about his real legacy – as opposed to the “Saint JFK” image that was created in the wake of his assassination – the more I think Oswald did the U.S. a favor.[/quote]MPS -
Jack Kennedy as a politician today woud be considered a ‘right-wing’ extremist.
Amazing how perspective shifts over time.

Only one problem with that idea- who’s going to force the buy-out if people don’t want to be bought out?

Lincoln wasn’t elected on a policy of ending slavery, though many of his supporters would have liked him to. The Republicans were opposed to the Fugitive Slave Acts , Dred Scott, and the extension of slavery to the territories, and even that was too much for the South.
A forced buy-out, even if such a law could have been passed, would almost certainly have led to secession as well.

As for the economics of slavery, it’s debatable- certainly it was becoming a less viable proposition in the seaboard states - but the cotton states?

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“MaPoSquid”]Not to mention Kennedy’s kickoff of the Vietnam War.
The more that has been revealed about his real legacy – as opposed to the “Saint JFK” image that was created in the wake of his assassination – the more I think Oswald did the U.S. a favor.[/quote]MPS -
Jack Kennedy as a politician today woud be considered a ‘right-wing’ extremist.
Amazing how perspective shifts over time.[/quote]

And Nixon couldn’t get nominated as a Democrat today- negative income tax, national health care- and look what the Reaganites thought of detente.

From what I remember, Lincoln wasn’t reallly pro or against slavery… He was for whatever would get the union back together.

These sentiments might have become more clear during reconstruction and a different historical view created.