Actually, I would be curious to know if Powell or Rice benefited in any way from affirmative action. Does anyone know? Because to me, they are two examples of Blacks that succeeded and are respected (genuinely) for their contributions and not as quote candidates. If they benefited to any degree, that would certainly have a major effect on how I viewed affirmative action.
But I find it interesting that Blacks dominate entertainment and sports to such a high degree. Do we need to implement affirmative action programs here as well to bring greater balance to women, and other ethnic groups?
Finally, when it comes to medicine, truth be told, I don’t want any affirmative action candidate operating on me. I want someone who knows what the hell they are doing. If standards (and I believe that they are) allowed to slip to graduate certain students, then the whole system suffers and I think that just proves the limits of such remedial programs no matter how many good intentions the implementers may have.
[quote=“fred smith”]Actually, I would be curious to know if Powell or Rice benefited in any way from affirmative action. Does anyone know? Because to me, they are two examples of Blacks that succeeded and are respected (genuinely) for their contributions and not as quote candidates. If they benefited to any degree, that would certainly have a major effect on how I viewed affirmative action.
But I find it interesting that Blacks dominate entertainment and sports to such a high degree. Do we need to implement affirmative action programs here as well to bring greater balance to women, and other ethnic groups?
Finally, when it comes to medicine, truth be told, I don’t want any affirmative action candidate operating on me. I want someone who knows what the hell they are doing. If standards (and I believe that they are) allowed to slip to graduate certain students, then the whole system suffers and I think that just proves the limits of such remedial programs no matter how many good intentions the implementers may have.[/quote]
An affirmative action plan based on race rather than income level is itself racist. It discriminates against whites and creates a pool of resentment that will only help to insure that racial tensions are perpetuated.
In a way, I find it ironic that Bush is so unpopular among so many Blacks. After all, he has hired two Blacks for some of the most important positions that they have ever held. Previous administrations usually hired what many viewed as quota Blacks to fill soft positions such as education, HUD, etc.
I really think that the true tragedy is that Blacks disproportionately suffer from poor elementary and secondary education and that could be improved upon in my opinion by pushing vouchers and greater accountability. This of course will hive the Democrat Party even further. Who do they target then? Blacks who want their children to get good educations or teachers who want to see more protection and less accountability lest they lose out on feeding at the trough? And here I mean not the hard-working teachers who really do work hard and care (and what do they have to fear from greater accountability?) but those who seek administrative positions (which now eat up say 50 cents to 76 cents on the dollar of public funding for education).
[quote=“Randy Newman”]We’re rednecks. We’re rednecks.
We don’t know our ass from a hole in the ground
We’re rednecks. We’re rednecks.
We are keeping the nigers down.[/quote]
Sorry Richard but I have seen too many white guys who couldn’t get a job while the Canadian government (Canada’s biggest employer) was giving jobs out by the bucket load to anybody who wasn’t a white guy. If you don’t know that is a very real issue you haven’t spent much time in a large Canadian city.
I think that we have seen how interconnected the world is. We cannot ignore one group because their misery or lack of opportunity “do not concern us.” We learned the hard way to realize that we have to help the most unfortunate members of society both at home and also abroad BUT how to do that is the key. I do not think that the past 40 years of welfare have helped. We must address access to health care. We must address access to quality education so that the mistakes of the parents are not visited upon the children. To improve education, we need more accountability both from teachers and schools but also parents. We need to focus on real standards not separate standards for separate groups. Let’s move ahead with vouchers, and devolve responsibility for school performance from the nation to the state or even the local community. Get rid of the Dept of Education. It has been nothing but another Carter Era failure. Ditto for Dept of Energy. Wasteful spending with no clear benefit.
I don’t get your tone Richard. When was I ever advocating priority hiring or University admissions for whites? At my age we were taught at school all about the evils of racism, and how we should never be guilty of that, only to grow up and become victims of it ourselves in our own countries. Affirmitive action plans are frequently taken advantage of by people who already have money. Meanwhile a lot of white males are being forced on to welfare or out into the streets and still people act as though whitey has something to learn. Perhaps they are right. Perhaps we need to learn how to squak for our rights. Perhaps that is what we are doing here. If we keep this up long enough society can become just one big squaking match between poorly defined races of people who are actually no different from each other. Or we could save thse programs for the truly disadvantaged ie. the poor, and forget about race altogether. As it stands you have wealthy people signing up for affirmative action programs. They should be ashamed of themselves.
I for one am not arguing about the poor oppressed white man but there are plenty of disadvantaged poor white people. Just watch Jerry Springer. I think that today’s poor whites have so much more in common with today’s poor Blacks than any Blacks today have with those enslaved many many many generations ago or those who suffered widespread discrimination 50 years ago. It is time to move on and education as we all know is the key. How to get these poor groups better locked into the system will be a key goal to ensuring the future prosperity and stability of our nation. End affirmative action, get standards enforced for ALL students and let’s all move ahead rather than looking behind.
OK…$.02 cents worth more.
Re: Gen. Colin Powell and Sec. Condi Rice.
I have heard/read that Gen. Powell has said that in his very early years - elementary/jr. high/high school and possibly early college years that AA may have been of help to him in securing educational opportunities. However he chose to make a career in the Military and believes that he rose thru the ranks on his own merits. I have heard/read no one, military-wise, ever make statements questioning or dis-agreeing with Gen. Powells statements.
Re:Condi Rice. Ms Rice was such a high performer from her earliest years that she had no need for AA or Gov’t programs to help her. Read her resume’, this woman was brilliant and dedicated from the git go. She was actively courted by the leading Universities at age 15 and heavily recruited by job offers as she matriculated.
So for these 1 individuals, its a toss-up as to whether Gov’t race quota programs were a significant part of their lives.
But it must be remembered that these 2 people posessed an uncommon drive and dedication to personal and professional excellence that is above the norm.
[quote=“Maoman”]
My best friend from high school couldn’t get into medical school in Ontario. However his marks were good enough that he qualified for a full scholarship (tuition, rent, books, living expenses) from the University of Munich. Very strange…[/quote]
I have to say that some of the people I went to school with who then went on to med school seemed destined to make awful doctors. They had great grades but absolutely no interpersonal skills! I am not implying that your friend fell into this catagorie, just pointiong out that grades aren’t everything.
On the affirnative action front, I would agree that it should be down to finding those with the best ability and helping them achieve their potential. I think we need to take account of people’s educational environments and opportunities when deciding on uni admission, not just on the grades. Really you want the people who show the ability to really take advantage of the opportunities they have and to overcome problems when they present. Colour should play little if any role now.
Affirmative action is sometimes defended under a “righting of historical injustice” argument, and sometimes under a “righting of present injustice” one. Each is problematic.
First, we have to decide what “justice” is. Is inequality necessarily unjust? Is it bad for smarter / harder-working people to get ahead? Should we take steps to ensure that all babies start out with the same amount of resources? Should they remain equal throughout life?
We could have “negative beauty contests” in which job applicants get points not only for being black (or whatever) but also for being dark-skinned, ugly, handicapped, diseased, children of sub-par parents, and so on. With enough point categories, nothing parents do to help their children will ever be rewarded.
Maybe “injustice” occurs not just because inequality exists (perhaps it is deserved, or at any rate morally irrelevent), but only if someone takes some active step to causing harm to someone else. If that is true, then black people should be grateful that their ancestors were enslaved. As a result they are more numerous and prosperous. If not for slavery, Africa would probably be more or less as it is now, but the Western hemisphere would have far fewer of them.
I think there are good reasons why blacks in particular (and other groups as well) are “discriminated” against. The problem is, our societies find it politically awkward to admit this, let alone allow rational discrimination.
Furthermore, if some discrimination should turn out to be irrational, I do not think that the government ought to intervene. Life is unfair. Let everybody fend for himself. (Which of course they do, by agitating for affirmative action.)
I think Fred that you forgot when you formed this thread using certain ideas/beliefs about African Americans; you forgot that not only white males visit this site. There are Taiwanese and other nationalities who visit Forumosa.com who do not have the access to African Americans to form their own opinion and when they read such uninformed posts they can take these posts as truth. Hence your comments will lend themselves to supporting negative beliefs that can fuel the racial divide. Hopefully, the following will offset some of the damage done.
Affirmative Action was created in 1965 by President Johnson as a result of making further efforts to combat the racism and discrimination that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was incapable of dealing with. It wasn
I think that first of all you can try being a little less shrill. I posted this because moderators shot down Screaming Jesus in another thread. I see no reason why this cannot be discussed so I posted it. People in Taiwan probably have a lot of ideas about White Men too. I do not see anyone demanding that we protect them from their wrongful impressions and besides here you are to post some information on the subject which contributes to the discussion. Are you saying that White Men cannot talk about Black people? Are White Men not allowed to have an opinion about affirmative action or reparations?
The last President to deal with AA was Clinton,as far as my reseach has shown me. Bush has been to busy dropping bombs over bagdad…So no Fred, Clinton doesn’t get the last word on this, it just so happens that’s the LAST PERSON TO DISCUSS IT IN OFFICE…read the post
[quote]Oh, but wait, I forgot, he was America’s first “Black” president right? [/quote]Don’t insult me…You’d do better by making an educated claim to your arguement…
