Republican Congressman: War is for the oil

Good for you! However, I’ll continue to expect better from my government. Just curious whether you accept bad service in restaurants – just sit there sipping from the “cleaner” side of the water glass, pushing aside the hairs in your soup, and never caring that raw incompetence is being played out right in front of you.

Was he killing hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children at the time of the invasion? Was he threatening anyone in the region? Was he even capable of threatening anybody. Keep in mind that he had allowed in the inspectors again and and turned over a 10,000+ page document that, even to this day, is the most comprehensive account of Iraq’s long-gone WMDs.

How long were the Iraqi people going to sit by? If he was such a “tyrant” (in fact, a broken, minor tin-pot dictator sitting on a lot of oil), then surely the Iraqi people were fully capable of taking their freedom into their own hands. Sure it would have involved some sacrifices, but their freedom would have truly been their own. Oh, that’s right … the U.S. taught them that lesson when Bush-41 left the nascent rebellions to wither and die.

The increasing global demand for oil and the declining production of mature oilfields elsewhere make Saudi Arabia’s oil production capacity pivotal to the world’s economy in the years to come. The country currently claims 261 billion barrels in proven reserves, which is about 25% of the world’s total. The United States in particular is expecting Saudi production to significantly increase in coming decades. Specifically, the U.S. EIA long-range oil supply forecast foresees Saudi production in the year 2025 to be about 22.5 Mb/d, which is more than double its current production of about 9.5 Mb/d. The Saudis have actively reassured the U.S. and the international financial community that their resources are sufficient to meet growing world demand. In order to address concerns, they have outlined a plan to increase production capacity to 12.5 million barrels a day by 2009. However, not even the Saudis are embracing the long term projections of the EIA, which many experts consider to be wildly unrealistic. In fact, Saudi officials who were interviewed on a not for attribution basis by the New York Times, cautioned that production beyond 12 Mb/d would damage the oil fields. One has to wonder which interests the EIA is really serving with its projections, which seem to substitute wishful thinking for responsible analysis.

Saudi Arabia has long been OPEC’s “swing producer,” meaning that it since the 1970s it has had millions of barrels per day of unused production capacity that could be used to make up for production shortfalls and emergencies elsewhere (such as during the First Gulf War of the early 1990s when Kuwait’s production was temporarily sequestered) or to discipline its fellow OPEC members. By 2004, this spare capacity had vanished. Despite Saudi protestations, the IEA estimated that the country had no more that a million barrels per day in spare production capacity in mid-2004. In response to the tight oil market that year, the Saudis came under heavy international pressure to produce their spare capacity and promised to do so. Despite the promises, Saudi production at the end of 2004 was not much more than it was before the present crisis, and the small amount of additional oil that has been produced has been heavy or sour oil that is difficult to refine.

According to the EIA, around two-thirds of Saudi reserves are considered “light” or “extra light” oil, with the balance classifies as either “medium” or “heavy.” The Saudis have been busy lately reassuring the world that their future ability to produce is practically boundless. Oil Minister Naimi stated at the end of 2004 that the country’s proven reserves could reach as high as 461 billion barrels in the near future. The EIA is even more enthusiastic, representing that the country might contain up to a trillion barrels of ultimately recoverable oil, an amount that is greater than the proven reserves of the rest of the world combined. The EIA identifies no basis for making such projections other than its apparent need to do so in order to justify its projections of future Saudi oil production.

The contrast that exists between experts on the size of Saudi Arabia’s reserves and its ability to produce oil in the future is perhaps greater than on any other current energy-related issue, and the stakes in terms of the future economic health of the industrialized world is enormous. Despite the obvious importance of the issue, the amount of credible information on the Saudi oilfields and reserves that is available for analysis by experts in the west is quite limited. Access to Saudi facilities is limited to those associated with the state-controlled oil monopoly Aramco, and unlike the large multinational oil corporations Aramco is not obliged to and has little incentive to publish specific information on its operations. The Saudi position can be summarized as “We can produce all you will need, but you’ll just have to trust us on that.” This makes a number of oil experts, economists and politicians nervous, and there have been recent calls for the Saudis to provide more disclosure and transparency with regard to their resources and operations.

Matthew Simmons, an adviser to the Bush administration on energy issues, is the most visible sceptic of the Saudi and EIA claims. Simmons has recently argued that Saudi Arabia’s oil fields are already in decline, and that its production capacity will not climb much higher than its current sustainable capacity of about 10 Mb/d. Simmons has authored a soon to be released book Twilight in the Desert that is based on his decades of experience in the oil industry and his detailed analysis of 235 individual SPE (Society of Petroleum Engineers) reports that refer to Saudi Arabia.

As background, more than half of Saudi Arabia’s oil reserves are contained in only eight fields, with more than 90% of all Saudi production over the past several decades coming from four to five key oilfields. All of these super-giint oilfields were discovered prior to 1965; there have been no new discoveries of any major oilfields in Saudi Arabia since then. Saudi Arabia is a large country, but 80% of its production comes from a relatively small area near the Persian Gulf coastline that can roughly be described as a rectangle extending about 400 miles from north to south and about 150 miles from east to west. It is unlikely that significant undiscovered petroleum deposits exist outside of that relatively limited area of Saudi Arabia.

Any analysis of Saudi oil production capabilities must concentrate heavily on the supergiant Ghawar oilfield, which was discovered in 1948 and has been in continuous largescale production for about five decades. Ghawar is sliver-shaped, paralleling the Persian Gulf coastline of far eastern Saudi Arabia and extending 174 miles in length from north to south and 16 miles from east to west. It lies beneath 1.3 million acres, is by far the world’s largest oil field, and it accounts for 50%-60% of all Saudi oil produced. Ghawar currently produces about 5 Mb/d, which is 5.9% of the world’s oil current production.

It is well established that production unfailingly begins to decline in an oilfield after about half of its reserves have been produced, a phenomenon that is known as “peaking.” Ghawar was originally estimated to contain about 115 billion barrels of recoverable reserves. Thus far, the field has produced about 55 billion barrels, which places it close to its peak midpoint. According to the current EIA report on Saudi Arabia, Aramco itself has stated that Ghawar has already produced about 48% of its proven reserves. However, the Saudis, perhaps anticipating the political and economic fallout of a looming decline in production from Ghawar, have recently backtracked on those statements and are now projecting that the field still has 125 billion barrels of oil left to produce. According to Simmons, “If that were true, it means that four companies with the single best people working on this missed Ghawar’s reserves by a factor of three.” …

…The disturbing answer to this question likely lies in the reserve inflation that took place among OPEC members during the oil glut of the past two decades. Because oil production quotas for OPEC members were based on each country’s proven reserves, and because each member wished to be permitted to produce as much as possible, OPEC member countries all substantially inflated their proved reserve figures, even though there were no major discoveries during this period of time.

Read the rest of the article:
peakoil.com/fortopic7701-0.html

[quote]Tigerman wrote:
How far did Saddam’s ruthlessness have to go before people like you finally decided that the suffering and oppression were enough? How the fuck long were people like you willing to maintain the status quo in the region, where that status quo was/is responsible for the misery of millions of people and the mother of terror? [/quote]

[quote]MFGR wrote:
How long were the Iraqi people going to sit by? If he was such a “tyrant” (in fact, a broken, minor tin-pot dictator sitting on a lot of oil), then surely the Iraqi people were fully capable of taking their freedom into their own hands. Sure it would have involved some sacrifices, but their freedom would have truly been their own. Oh, that’s right … the U.S. taught them that lesson when Bush-41 left the nascent rebellions to wither and die.[/quote]

Uhm I believe the Democratic controlled Congress voted against kicking Saddy out in 91.

And, why do many Americans share this falsity that every country can do “What we did” when the US Colonies rebelled against Britain? For god’s sake, that was a long time ago in a very dfiferent world.

Saddam executed dissenters from the very beginning of his leadership. He broke the spirits of nearly everyone in the government and had the general poulation completely terrorized…and you wanted them to start an uprising? Worse, you were willing to wait for them to do it?

IMHO, there are a few more countries that could use a US led invasion…most in Africa.

This argument is moot - there are many countries where there are similar conditions and so far the US has not bothered. It was not about Saddam killing those people and threatening the region but rather about finding an excuse for an invasion - and that’s why the WMD card was played.
Without it Bush would not have invaded, read: he would have given a shit about thise ‘hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children’, just as he does give a shit about all those other countries.

And ‘people like me’ advocate getting rid of Saddam (though not by means of an invasion) but you always seem to forget that.

Sure he was. Just look at his military expenditure after the Gulf war and how many US/UK planes they actually shot down. That’s a pretty good indication of how capable and what kind of threat he was, isn’t it?

I do not see that the disagreement of the German and French governments along with the UN and Russians (all of whom had very lucrative arrangements with Saddam) makes the argument moot.

Just because you buy a pizza at Alleycat’s does not mean that you are obligated to buy a similar pizza at every other joint in town. Limitations both in terms of time and money determine where you will choose to go and how much you will spend and how often you do so. It will even determine who you invite so do not pretend that the lack of a one-size fits all approach is somehow a negative. It is a reality.

That is your opinion of course but we have seen some very positive developments in the Middle East and between Pakistan and India that even their leaders have admitted are a direct result of greater American involvement in the region.

Given that Germany has done next to nothing about problems it has created such as Kosovo and Bosnia and Rwanda, the tsunami (except to fly Kohl’s fat ass out of Sri Lanka) and the many other world problems perhaps you should say to yourself. Gosh the US is so busy with helping the tsunami victims, policing Afghanistan, dealing with Iraq and helping us in the Balkans that perhaps we Germans need to do a few things. One to actually provide some military help, perhaps more money and aid to US efforts but best of all, perhaps we need to stop sabotaging American efforts which benefit so many simply because we have an egoist for a chancellor and an ex-communist who has nary a clue as a foreign minister.

and how were you going to get rid of Saddam without an invasion? discussions, dialogue, liaising etc. as you have so successfully implemented over the past three years in your discussions with Iran to get them to abandon their nuclear programs?

Fred, this is not the “compare the US to Germany (or France) thread” nor were they part of my argument, so those points are moot, too, and I will chose to ignore them since it would just lead to side-tracking.

Bad analogy. IMHO it is highly hypocritical to invoke the humanitarian reason when no such thing has seemed to matter / does seem to matter elsewhere.
And it’s even more hypocritical when that reason starts being invoked and pushed to the top after the primary one (that’s WMD) turns out to be a blank.
Sounds too much like an excuse and an attempt to brush aside or ignore the failures and avoid taking responsibility for the same.

Name one such country.

Excuse? Are you kidding? The reason for the invasion was to oust Saddam so that 1) reform of Iraq could take place and hopefully trigger reform in the region and 2) to pre-empt tho possibility that Saddam could in the future obtain and or develop WMD and provide the same to terrorists.

This is the moot argument.

How do you KNOW what Bush feels about anyone? Do you, Rascal, have mind-reading capability? If not, you should refrain from making such illogical statements. Moreover, whether Bush acts in any other situation would not necessarily be a function of his feelings… as mofangoongren has been moaning on and on, the US has committed half its military capability in the middle east. According to mofangongren, the US now lacks the capability to do anything militarily in any other part of the world. Now, are you saying that mofangongren is wrong?

I don’t forget that. I just laugh when I read such nonsense. How long was Saddam in power? Was he from a majority ethnic group in Iraq? How is it that your alternative method never worked previously?

[quote=“Rascal”]IMHO it is highly hypocritical to invoke the humanitarian reason when no such thing has seemed to matter / does seem to matter elsewhere.

And it’s even more hypocritical when that reason starts being invoked and pushed to the top after the primary one (that’s WMD) turns out to be a blank.

Sounds too much like an excuse and an attempt to brush aside or ignore the failures and avoid taking responsibility for the same.[/quote]

Oh, to be as blind and deaf as you…

Please again refer to the following:

[quote=“President Bush on 12 September 2002”][b][color=red]
If we fail to act in the face of danger, the people of Iraq will continue to live in brutal submission. The regime will have new power to bully, dominate and conquer its neighbors, condemning the Middle East to more years of bloodshed and fear. The region will remain unstable, with little hope of freedom and isolated from the progress of our times…

If we meet our responsibilities, if we overcome this danger, we can arrive at a very different future. The people of Iraq can shake off their captivity. They can one day join a democratic Afghanistan and a democratic Palestine, inspiring reforms throughout the Muslim world. These nations can show by their example that honest government, and respect for women, and the great Islamic tradition of learning can triumph in the Middle East and beyond. …

Neither of these outcomes is certain. Both have been set before us. We must choose between a world of fear and a world of progress. … We must stand up for our security, and for the permanent rights and hopes of mankind.
[/color][/b][/quote]

You really don’t like when I cite President Bush’s speeches, do you? :smiley:

Well I still want to know which countries Germany and France have helped. What have they done? I believe that France sent troops to Cote d’Ivoire to restore order. How have they been doing? Is it a quagmire? What about Haiti? What have the US and French forces accomplished there? Where is Germany? What does Germany do for the good of the world? I for one cannot think of too many things. Be sure and focus only on the US though. That may throw sand in the eyes of some, but many of us will still know that Germany does very little to solve problems. How is the German, French and British effort going to get Iran to give up its nuclear weapons programs. Let’s see you have had three years to “negotiate,” and what do you have to show for it? Hmmm?

Please scroll a few pages back.

I do recall Bush stating that Iraq has WMD and poses a threat, right then. Why don’t you cite those speeches?

I didn’t say I know. I however judge this from his behaviour (i.e. his actions, or rather lack thereof in this case).

I always laugh (well, not really) when I hear that any reason stated by Bush on it’s own would have been a valid reason to invade, but everyone seems to agree that no such reason on it’s own nor all together, without the WMD, would have made Bush actually invade.

I am not sure what it matters (related to my argument) from which ethnic group Saddam was and I also wonder what my alternative method is that never worked (since I didn’t state any here in this thread). But maybe you can quote me for a change (instead of Bush)? I would like that.

Well since Rascal was quite sure, actually knew that Saddam had wmds, I find it somewhat hypocritical of him to be so much against Bush now for believing that Saddam had such weapons.

Let’s face it the US was right to invade, those who were against had their motives severely compromised with their business interests and corrupt Oil for Food program partners.

I note that nobody yet has been able to successfully contest the fact that the war makes no sense unless it was about oil. The Repubican congressman is simply stating what is, at this time, common knowledge.

Thanks for holding me up to the same standards as Bush but I actually take it as an insult. Bush presented it as absolute fact / absolute knowledge while I merely stated an opinion (which shortly after changed, based on new information as it became publicly available) - but I wasn’t the one who supported and started a war on that. And as far as I recall I opposed the war from the beginning. :raspberry:

So did you… so what?

So, what has Germany done to relieve the suffering of the world? Not much. I guess we can judge from Germany’s inaction that Germany couldn’t care less about the suffering people of the world.

[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“Rascal”]IMHO it is highly hypocritical to invoke the humanitarian reason when no such thing has seemed to matter / does seem to matter elsewhere.

And it’s even more hypocritical when that reason starts being invoked and pushed to the top after the primary one (that’s WMD) turns out to be a blank.

Sounds too much like an excuse and an attempt to brush aside or ignore the failures and avoid taking responsibility for the same.[/quote]

Oh, to be as blind and deaf as you…

Please again refer to the following:

[quote=“President Bush on 12 September 2002”][b][color=red]
If we fail to act in the face of danger, the people of Iraq will continue to live in brutal submission. The regime will have new power to bully, dominate and conquer its neighbors, condemning the Middle East to more years of bloodshed and fear. The region will remain unstable, with little hope of freedom and isolated from the progress of our times…

If we meet our responsibilities, if we overcome this danger, we can arrive at a very different future. The people of Iraq can shake off their captivity. They can one day join a democratic Afghanistan and a democratic Palestine, inspiring reforms throughout the Muslim world. These nations can show by their example that honest government, and respect for women, and the great Islamic tradition of learning can triumph in the Middle East and beyond. …

Neither of these outcomes is certain. Both have been set before us. We must choose between a world of fear and a world of progress. … We must stand up for our security, and for the permanent rights and hopes of mankind.
[/color][/b][/quote]

You really don’t like when I cite President Bush’s speeches, do you? :smiley:[/quote]

No comment, Rascal?

A rather odd way of looking at it. I guess everyone has their own notions of what “makes sense” in terms of reasons for going to war. Is the conspiracy theory idea that it was “about oil” somehow a claim that the US is secretly loading up the tankers in secret ports under cover of darkness? Maybe they are using a secret underground pipelines built by aliens? All sorts of amusing notions I suppose could be offered, although none of them really makes sense. They would, after all, raise the question of why the US ever handed Kuwait back over to the Kuwaitis if what they really wanted was to take over a country and keep the oil. One also wonders, if access to oil was all that was wanted, why the US didn’t just get in bed with Hussein like the French and Russians did. They could just go ahead and get their oil that way – paying into his Swiss bank accounts money that was supposed to go to feed the children he was starving in his country. shug I guess the good part about conspiracy theories is that they don’t need to make sense. :laughing:

As explained above I wasn’t the one who went to war, but I am honored that you appreciate and value my opinion so much.

I don’t respond to posts that contain personal attacks.

Invading a pretty much terrorist-free secular country run into the ground by a tinpot dictator seems like an odd way to pursue a struggle against islamic extremist terrorists. If one is also going to try to prevent proliferation of WMDs, it might help if the U.S. took seriously the countries that actually have WMDs instead of the ones that don’t. Out of all the things that Iraq didn’t have (WMDs, terrorists, etc.), the one thing that they had in spades was oil. Add in that Bush and Cheney are “oil” guys and the whole Project for a New American Century claptrap that was signed onto by pretty much all of the Bush administration top policy people, and you have a recipe for suspicion.

Doesn’t have to be a “conspiracy theory.” We’ve got our hand so far up the butt of the Iraqi government that we can flap its lips like a sock puppet’s. Simply put – no matter what happens with Venezuela or “peak” oil demand, we pull up first at the Iraqi pumps. By the way, is Iraq even participating in OPEC stuff? Probably not if we have anything to say about it.

Perhaps the Kuwait deal wasn’t so good for us. However, if you know your history, Kuwait’s wells are the ones running out badly enough that they were drilling under the Iraq border to try to suck out Saddam’s crude.

Right, and then we’d have had to compete against the French and Russians for oil. How would that be quite so good as getting our own puppet government in there?

I guess the interesting thing about some people is how U.S. policy doesn’t need to make sense.

I haven’t seen any evidence that the U.S. is trying to directly or indirectly control Iraq’s oil resources. If anyone is aware of such evidence I’d be interested in seeing it.

In every instance I’ve seen where the U.S. had an opportunity to take control of the oil resources of the Middle East – such as in Kuwait – it’s handed control back to the rightful owners without hesitation.

I don’t think many countries on earth besides the U.S., Great Britain and Australia would characteristically show such restraint and for that you’ve got to admire them.

Huh? There was no personal attack in my question/post…

Anyway, here it is again… I’ve edited out all of my comments so you have nothing to worry about:

[quote][quote=“Rascal”]IMHO it is highly hypocritical to invoke the humanitarian reason when no such thing has seemed to matter / does seem to matter elsewhere.

And it’s even more hypocritical when that reason starts being invoked and pushed to the top after the primary one (that’s WMD) turns out to be a blank.

Sounds too much like an excuse and an attempt to brush aside or ignore the failures and avoid taking responsibility for the same.[/quote]

[quote=“President Bush on 12 September 2002, before the invasion of Iraq and the discovery that Iraq likely has no WMD”][b][color=red]
If we fail to act in the face of danger, the people of Iraq will continue to live in brutal submission. The regime will have new power to bully, dominate and conquer its neighbors, condemning the Middle East to more years of bloodshed and fear. The region will remain unstable, with little hope of freedom and isolated from the progress of our times…

If we meet our responsibilities, if we overcome this danger, we can arrive at a very different future. The people of Iraq can shake off their captivity. They can one day join a democratic Afghanistan and a democratic Palestine, inspiring reforms throughout the Muslim world. These nations can show by their example that honest government, and respect for women, and the great Islamic tradition of learning can triumph in the Middle East and beyond. …

Neither of these outcomes is certain. Both have been set before us. We must choose between a world of fear and a world of progress. … We must stand up for our security, and for the permanent rights and hopes of mankind.
[/color][/b][/quote][/quote]

Now, any comments, Rascal… :smiley: