Retirement Planning and Investments as an Expat

Abacus: Well, it’s more complicated than that. I wouldn’t invest in the market as a whole, but then, I wouldn’t do that even if I thought the economy were doing well in general. There are certain companies that do well and certain companies that don’t do well in most economies. America is still the largest economy in the world and people still need to buy goods and services. America still drives a lot of innovation. Companies that can provide those things well to consumers will do well. More to the point than there being good companies, there are good companies that are incredibly cheap to buy because the market has irrationally priced them.

Then, there’s the separate issue of tax based upon where my money is and my citizenship and/or residency status. As a non-U.S. citizen, I don’t pay the kind of tax an American citizen would if his money were invested in the U.S. Likewise, despite how screwed up the U.S. is in some ways, I think it’s a much more favourable place to have my money than Australia because the Australian taxation system and culture generally are both far less favourable to wealth creation. I like that big business has the government in its pocket in the U.S. I have no patriotic feelings to any country. Having an Australian passport is obviously preferable to having a Taiwanese passport, but it’s probably not much different (and maybe even slightly less convenient) than many other passports. This is one of the few services the Australian government provides me with, so why would I want to have my money there and pay lots of tax on it?

bismarck: At least you’ve made the realisation while you’re still relatively young. You could have made it in another five or ten years.

[quote=“bismarck”]I left the Navy (100% medical, pension contributions - private and government - government housing subsidy and loans etc etc) to come here and teach ESL/EFL at 27 with no teaching certificate. Sure, I only planned on being here a year or two (and then heading back to do something else, possibly teaching), but it’s been 9 years already. You’re right. It was absolutely insane. It’s only been a recent development that I’ve started to save aggressively (I was one of the young guys with no plan, throwing away money on my “second childhood” chasing skirt and boozing), mostly because of what you guys have written here, and my current lady friend (she’s almost a female Taiwanese version of you re financial thinking etc). I’ve done the calculations and I’ve basically pissed away 5 million NT since I started working in 1996. I still can’t believe it. I mourn for my fiscal idiocy as a young man, and fear for how the hell I’m going to make it up in years to come (if I can, at all).

I am going the teacher certification route next year (UNISA and certification in SA), but I’m not sure that’s going to be even barely enough to see me through to 60 (a theoretic extra 23/24 years of work). If I could do it all again I’d do it very differently, but such is hindsight. Now I just need to do and plan as best I can moving forward, and the prospects are scary. I really feel that although a better job as a certified teacher will be leagues better than what I’m doing now, it just won’t be enough. I truly feel I need to do more, but I don’t know what to do.[/quote]

Yes, I feel you, Brother. I had no financial education. I had lots of opportunities I didn’t take advantage of because of naievete, and I’ve just turned 40. I’ve no retirement in sight. I’m trying to save, and I was saying to someone just an hour ago that I wish I understood more about what to do to grow wealth. I’m trying to learn, trying to educate myself by reading books, and looking stuff up online, but I feel like I’m trying to teach myself how to enrich plutonium or something. I don’t have a clue, and muddeling through on my own will never cut it.

You and I, we need get together some other clueless folks and try to find someone to enlighten us!

Anyone here with any financial experience want to organize a class for us dummies?

Indiana: I suspected that the issue might be to do with volatility. The problem is that there is always going to be volatility and you can’t control for that. If you wait until tomorrow, next week, next month, next year for things to settle down, you’ll be waiting a long time. To give you an indication though, companies such as Berkshire Hathaway have probably seen almost every economic climate there is, yet they’ve continued to prosper despite all of that. By and large, good and bad investments exist regardless of the economy.

Also, I think you need to see past the market as a whole and look at individual companies. As I just wrote to Abacus, there will be companies that will do well and those that won’t. More than that though, you want to find the companies that are good value. From that point onward, it starts getting a lot more complicated, so I’ll leave it at that and leave the reading up to you.

Benjamin Graham really has three basic concepts: Mr Market, margin of safety and seeing shares as owning a part of a business. I think if you have a look at Buffett’s letters and Graham’s book, you’ll get a good feel for those and start to see things a bit differently. Let me know once you’ve read those. If they make sense to you and you’re comfortable with that worldview/investing philosophy, then I can put you in touch with some other people who can help you further (to where I am).

Other people (you might want to talk to Gman) would tell you of different approaches to investing, but this is one.

housecat: That’s actually an interesting question. I have a friend who lives in Taipei. He teaches English for residency purposes mainly, but he does a lot with investing. His plan within the next few years is to invest full time. He was the one who put me onto a lot of what I know today, as well as put me in touch with the person who manages my money. At various points in the past, he talked about trying to teach people some of this stuff, but he’s never gone through with it. If there really is interest, I could ask him if he’s willing to do that, though in the meantime, I’d recommend people read Graham and Buffett, as per what I’ve written above. That’s where I started with that stuff.

[quote=“housecat”]Yes, I feel you, Brother. I had no financial education. I had lots of opportunities I didn’t take advantage of because of naievete, and I’ve just turned 40. I’ve no retirement in sight. I’m trying to save, and I was saying to someone just an hour ago that I wish I understood more about what to do to grow wealth. I’m trying to learn, trying to educate myself by reading books, and looking stuff up online, but I feel like I’m trying to teach myself how to enrich plutonium or something. I don’t have a clue, and muddeling through on my own will never cut it.

You and I, we need get together some other clueless folks and try to find someone to enlighten us!

Anyone here with any financial experience want to organize a class for us dummies?[/quote]
Not only was I wasteful, I’m a financial retard. I wish it was my strong suit, but I know sweet buggerall about it, and trying to educate myself about it leads to frustration as I can’t make head or tail of it, nor who to trust!

I console myself with that, but I also realise saving isn’t the best way as you only seem to lose money by leaving it in the bank …

I think I need to read those two books you recommended earlier and check out Berkshire Hathaway etc.
The Intelligent Investor and The Richest Man in Babylon, right?

All I’ve read on these matters is Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and his one about the Quadrants. :blush:

bismarck: The Richest Man in Babylon is essentially personal finance. It’s incredibly easy to read and actually quite repetitive (it’s told as a series of related stories that reiterate the same point), so even reading just the first story would be enough. It’s regarded as perhaps the classic in personal finance.

I’d also suggest looking at some personal finance blogs. They’re probably going to be a bit hit and miss, but you’ll get some recurring themes from them and they’ll be easier to read than great tomes by guys spruiking their expensive seminars.

The Intelligent Investor is about investing, though it’s more about investing philosophy than a how to guide for picking individual stocks. It might be a bit much at first, which is why I’d suggest finding Warren Buffett’s letters to the shareholders of Berkshire Hathaway (the company he runs). They’re easy to find online. They would serve as a kind of soft landing into value investing. I actually read Graham (including Security Analysis in two weeks – what an intense book that was and I wouldn’t really recommend it to a novice), plus some of the other guys’ works like Seth Klarman’s Margin of Safety and later read Warren Buffett’s letters, but I think it would have been better to do it the other way around and start with Buffett’s letters.

Guy, thanks for all of the info. :notworthy:

I’ll see if I have time tomorrow to look through some blogs for people, as well as write about budgeting and the envelope system I use.

Here are the Warren Buffet letters to the shareholders of Berkshire Hathaway. Start with the earliest and work forward. They get better as they go along.

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]I’ll see if I have time tomorrow to look through some blogs for people, as well as write about budgeting and the envelope system I use.

Here are the Warren Buffet letters to the shareholders of Berkshire Hathaway. Start with the earliest and work forward. They get better as they go along.

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html[/quote]
Cheers for that, GiT. And everything else. :thumbsup:

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Abacus: Well, it’s more complicated than that. I wouldn’t invest in the market as a whole, but then, I wouldn’t do that even if I thought the economy were doing well in general. There are certain companies that do well and certain companies that don’t do well in most economies. America is still the largest economy in the world and people still need to buy goods and services. America still drives a lot of innovation. Companies that can provide those things well to consumers will do well. More to the point than there being good companies, there are good companies that are incredibly cheap to buy because the market has irrationally priced them.
[/quote]

So you don’t have any money in Australia but you consider America safe because it’s the largest economy in the world? I’ll agree that the western gov’ts have money problems but either you overstate your pessimism or you ignore it in investing. Because all companies get hammered if the gov’ts get into big trouble.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we share a lot of the same ideas regarding money, the future and teaching in Taiwan as a whole. You just have more of a ‘we’re fucked’ online persona. I have to start studying investing again though. I started with the same books that you’ve recommended but then lost interest for awhile.

That’s not generally a successful strategy. Very few companies outperform the market over the long term, and very few investment portfolios composed of individual securities outperform the market over the long term. There’s a great deal of academic literature on the subject, and I was exposed to enough in business school to convince me that picking individual securities, or even hiring someone to do it for me are both dangerous games. There have been numerous long term studies of the peformance of fund managers against market index funds. Repeatedly, the market slightly outperforms fund managers, even without adjusting for management fees. You have mentioned in previous threads that you turn your money over to a fund manager who consistently outperforms the market. While I generally agree with your financial advice, particularly in regards to living frugally, saving consistently, etc., I believe a word of caution is warranted here. The fund manager who can outperform the market consistently is a statistical anomaly.

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Split the thread from here: [url=What's the Point of Staying in Taiwan? - #98 by ChewDawg the Point of Staying in Taiwan?[/url]

Yep. That’s why I’m not in Australia and don’t have my money there. Call me a rat deserting a sinking ship. Australians have a massive love affair with socialism, and that’s not going to change any time soon. It’s only going to get worse. Currently, it’s masked by good times and living off the good old days, but the veil will be lifted soon enough.[/quote]

I am just curious what leads you to believe this with regards to Australians and socialism?

Abacus: I don’t have money in Australia for the main reason that I don’t like the government and cultural attitudes towards wealth creation, i.e. the prevailing attitude of socialism. There are probably good individual companies in Australia. It’s just that, as an Australian citizen, if I had my money there, it would get taxed to shit by the Australian government. As a non-U.S. citizen with my money in the U.S., I don’t get taxed to shit. I’m distinguishing between being an investor and being a citizen/tax payer. I live in Taiwan, not Australia, so I don’t believe I should let the Australian government tax the shit out of me.

Also, for what it’s worth, though this macro-economic issue is actually a non-issue for me (since I don’t live in either country), although the U.S. is currently in a bit of a heap and Australia seems to be flying high, I believe the U.S. has a much more robust economy. Australia is a bit of a banana republic being driven by mining and a very small number of other sectors. Industry is in much worse shape, as is innovation generally, than the U.S. Another thing is that some of Australia’s largest companies are banks. I think, though I can’t remember correctly, that all four of the major banks are in the top ten companies. That’s a little too much concentration for my liking, especially given their exposure to the real estate market and the massive real estate bubble right now.

GaoBohan: The famous essay by Warren Buffett addresses this very issue:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39169365/The-Super-Investors-of-Graham-and-Doddsville

The recurring theme? Value investors (though that is by no means the only way to make money). Of course, past performance is no guarantee of future performance, but if someone were to find just the guys Buffett mentions in that essay (such as himself, or the guys at Tweedy, Browne), let alone younger versions of them, and invest with them, it would not be dumb luck. You are right that those who outperform the market are statistical anomalies. However, that’s like saying that Denmark is a statistical anomaly in terms of its standard of living. Indeed, it is. However, upon examining the way that country is operated and then looking at other countries operated in a similar fashion, I think it’s reasonable to make inferences about certain modes of operation being much more likely than others to be successful in running a country.

Also, I’m not saying this about you or your business school per se, but I have a very dim view of the business educational community. They’re the clowns who produced both the economists and the business leaders who contributed to America’s current financial woes. Either whatever they’re teaching – especially regarding business ethics – is wrong and they’re incompetent, or they’re in some way complicit in the fiasco. Again though, a lot of this (and the bad performances of various financial institutions) can be avoided by asking some very simple questions about what the captains of industry have their money invested in and how they are compensated. I would posit that someone who won’t answer such questions plainly should be avoided like the plague, and I would also posit that someone who would and turns out to have his or her interests aligned with the person whose funds he is managing is more likely than average to also view investing broadly, and individual stocks specifically, in a much different light. Such an attitude would probably give him out-sized performance over the long term.

I think some people mistake me, at times, as being an apologist for Wall Street because I am an avowed capitalist. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think that the reason most funds underperform the market (even taking account of the fact that we’d expect 50% to underperform) is because most either get caught up in the irrational exuberance or blind panic of the market, or (more importantly) because the fund managers’ or CEOs’ interests barely align, if at all, with those they supposedly represent. All their interests are in pumping a stock price in the short term and then doing a runner. Very few actually have to live with all that for a two or three decade period. Look at those guys and you’re likely to see a much different set of results.

Lots of people are lying down with dogs and then wondering why they’re getting up with fleas.

pqkdzrwt: Something like 20% or 25% of the Australian populace gets some form of handout from the government. I’d call that a love affair with socialism. Plenty of people don’t have enough money for retirement, or won’t in coming decades, for a whole lot of reasons I’ve already listed. Those people are not simply going to disappear quietly into the night. They’re still going to be voters in retirement. Anyone else who has any money more than them is going to increasingly be a legislative target for them and their elected representatives. I don’t want to be such a target. Not now, not ever.

Guy, don’t you have to pay tax on US investments? I thought the rate was about 30% on any profits for non-citizens.

Indiana: No. Non-resident aliens do not pay capital gains tax. They pay 30% on dividends, I believe. Resident aliens, as well as U.S. citizens pay capital gains tax.

Cool, thanks for the info. My husband is British and we were trying to decide whose name it would be better to invest under, as I am American.

What exactly do you have in place to keep your assets out of US probate, and to avoid paying any estate tax that might be owed, on investments you may have in the US on the date of your death? The death duties demanded from non-citizens can be a real shocker in the US. Also, do you not find dealing with IRS withholding to be a pain in the ass? (Having said all of that, I also agree that the US is the cheapest, easiest market in the world to buy and sell equity and bond investments)

[quote]
GaoBohan: The famous essay by Warren Buffett addresses this very issue:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39169365/The-Super-Investors-of-Graham-and-Doddsville

The recurring theme? Value investors (though that is by no means the only way to make money). Of course, past performance is no guarantee of future performance, but if someone were to find just the guys Buffett mentions in that essay (such as himself, or the guys at Tweedy, Browne), let alone younger versions of them, and invest with them, it would not be dumb luck. You are right that those who outperform the market are statistical anomalies. However, that’s like saying that Denmark is a statistical anomaly in terms of its standard of living. Indeed, it is. However, upon examining the way that country is operated and then looking at other countries operated in a similar fashion, I think it’s reasonable to make inferences about certain modes of operation being much more likely than others to be successful in running a country.[/quote]
I don’t see this as an appropriate analogy. The potential to dramatically change the institutional cultures in a country’s education, health and social welfare systems just does not compare to how quickly a fund or a firm’s strategy can change as old hands are replaced by new talent. Buffet and BRK are an outstanding, rare example of a firm that has avoided this kind of strategy drift. Identifying ahead of time which manager or firm will manage this is about like trying to predict anything else over a person’s working life. This is precisely why lots of smart, disciplined people are happy to settle for market returns in the equity side of their portfolio, and prefer to maintain control of their stash through an allocation of boring index products rather than trusting firms that charge a lot more and which are quite likely to drift away from their original strategy, or see their strategy lose enough of its relevance to no longer beat the indexes.

In the old Buffet article you link to, he is essentially comparing apples to oranges. He no longer does this, and rightly so since it is now a silly marketing technique used by scores of “professional” money managers whose skills fall far short of Buffet’s. So some guys he claims to have identified beforehand managed to beat the S&P 500? Big deal. I’ve managed to handily beat the 500 after fees for about a decade by just owning a set allocation of Vanguard’s US Total Stock Market, Total Bond Market and Total Internation/FTSE World ex-US. Anybody could have easily done the same even if they held the 500 index rather than TSM, and plenty of people have beaten the 500 by much more just by adding a bit of small cap or small cap value tilt to their portfolios. I mean no disrespect to you, and certainly not to Buffet, but for most people keeping a disciplined allocation of broad-market indexes is the far more reliable way of getting steady, good returns.

Jive Turkey: Nothing on the probate and estate tax front. Will look into that. Thanks.

I disagree that countries can’t or don’t change direction quickly. There are all sorts of very real legislative changes that can affect the direction of a country within a very short period of time (e.g. after mid-term elections, or with the change of an administration).

Also, companies such as Berkshire Hathaway don’t just have one top guy at the top running the show. Within BH there are several people sub-ordinate to Warren Buffett, each with very good track records within BH, who are suspected as being likely to replace Buffett. Likewise, Tweedy, Browne was founded in 1920 and has managed inter-generational leadership change.

How much do you mean by these “steady, good returns”?

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Abacus: Well, it’s more complicated than that. I wouldn’t invest in the market as a whole, but then, I wouldn’t do that even if I thought the economy were doing well in general. There are certain companies that do well and certain companies that don’t do well in most economies. America is still the largest economy in the world and people still need to buy goods and services. America still drives a lot of innovation. Companies that can provide those things well to consumers will do well. More to the point than there being good companies, there are good companies that are incredibly cheap to buy because the market has irrationally priced them.

Then, there’s the separate issue of tax based upon where my money is and my citizenship and/or residency status. As a non-U.S. citizen, I don’t pay the kind of tax an American citizen would if his money were invested in the U.S. Likewise, despite how screwed up the U.S. is in some ways, I think it’s a much more favourable place to have my money than Australia because the Australian taxation system and culture generally are both far less favourable to wealth creation. I like that big business has the government in its pocket in the U.S. I have no patriotic feelings to any country. Having an Australian passport is obviously preferable to having a Taiwanese passport, but it’s probably not much different (and maybe even slightly less convenient) than many other passports. This is one of the few services the Australian government provides me with, so why would I want to have my money there and pay lots of tax on it?

bismarck: At least you’ve made the realisation while you’re still relatively young. You could have made it in another five or ten years.[/quote]

Bismark, I know guys here and back home in their 50’s who haven’t realized it yet. I would not get to bent outta shape as you still have time to do something about it. If you managed to blow so much in your time here, you should be able to save some going forward.

I remember we had a similar conversation before, however I was blown outta of the water by a certain someone for suggesting you invest somehow(Wont mention names) :thumbsdown: .

I will state again that putting any savings in a normal savings account costs you money. On the other hand, not everyone knows how to invest themselves.
Some type of financial planner is needed. I can put you in touch with someone I use back home. If you are interested PM me. The person works for a well known and respected institution, so there are certain safeguards.

From what I have heard, financial planners here leave much to be desired and have heard a few horror stories from my wife.

Well, that’s the major reason I haven’t done anything, apart from just leaving it in a bank account, with the little I have saved. I’ve thought about sending money to South Africa, but who knows when Malema and co may up and decide “the rich” lose their farms and bank accounts to pay for [strike]his next Mercedes[/strike] the poor … And I am worried about getting money out of there in the future.
I was thinking about:
A. Buying actual gold and silver (not paper, but the actual stuff).
B. Buying Forex at the bank (Those ForEx accounts that you need an ID Card for, foreigners can’t get one, and they have interest rates ranging from 1.5% to 5% depending on the currency).
C. Buying an apartment, paying it off ASAP, and then getting a 2nd or 3rd property to rent out (but I don’t have much faith in the future of Taiwanese real estate, what with the low birth rate and already high prices).
D. Investing in, or starting a business myself for extra income that can be re-invested (but not really sure which way to go on that, or how to go about it).

I’ll pm you.

Well, that’s the major reason I haven’t done anything, apart from just leaving it in a bank account, with the little I have saved. I’ve thought about sending money to South Africa, but who knows when Malema and co may up and decide “the rich” lose their farms and bank accounts to pay for [strike]his next Mercedes[/strike] the poor … And I am worried about getting money out of there in the future.
I was thinking about:
A. Buying actual gold and silver (not paper, but the actual stuff).
B. Buying Forex at the bank (Those ForEx accounts that you need an ID Card for, foreigners can’t get one, and they have interest rates ranging from 1.5% to 5% depending on the currency).
C. Buying an apartment, paying it off ASAP, and then getting a 2nd or 3rd property to rent out (but I don’t have much faith in the future of Taiwanese real estate, what with the low birth rate and already high prices).
D. Investing in, or starting a business myself for extra income that can be re-invested (but not really sure which way to go on that, or how to go about it).

I’ll pm you.[/quote]

I sent you some details about 5 minutes ago.

The SA financial system is actually very advanced and extremely sophisticated. It is properly regulated and always has been. My opinion is that it is quite safe.

While I agree with your points above regarding investments, it is difficult to use the above as a retirement vehicle unless you are pretty well educated or experienced in financial planning. I for one have a good idea but am no expert. I am certainly unable to invest myself with confidence.

I think that putting money into precious metals or currency is a good option, if you really know what you are doing. I do not. They are also something you need to be constantly watching and need to know when to buy or sell.

The own business sounds interesting though. At least you are working for yourself. I am trying to set something up at the moment, but that’s another story.