Returning to Taiwan soon, can't wait to leave the USA

Discussion Greater Forumosa
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I am finishing up my last semester in an MA program here in the States, a program in which I benefited supremely: free tuition, free housing, free meal plan, decent stipend -all of which wraps up in about 8 weeks, but I am feeling, more and more as each day passes, disgust at this country, its people, its culture. I was raised in Buffalo, did my BA in NYC, lived there for 7 years, fell in love/hate with Taiwan, got married there, and am now about to return. It couldn’t come sooner.

What I’m about to say is surely nothing new. But, perhaps because I was often preoccupied with one thing or another, I either blocked these elements out or was having too good a time to understand them. Not this time around.

What I notice now is a country deeply religious in Christianity -be it Protestants or Catholics or Lutherans or what have you- who ALL support the War in Iraq to the fullest. To the best of my knowledge, one of the pillars of this country was “separation of church and state.” However, beginning with home life, Americans meld them. Parents who are Protestant (semi-serious ones) pressure/force their children to 1. vote Republican 2. buy Ford (American at the very least), 3. support ANY and All military actions by the USA and BUY INTO WHATEVER BILL O’REILLY has to say about it. I’ve met 10 year old kids, many, in fact, who pledged their support for Mr. O’Reilly, the Christian Church, Jesus Christ, the 2nd Coming, Heaven, the Holy Spirit, AND:

that Darwin’s theory of Evolution has found its equivilent in “Al Gore’s” Global Warming". They’ve told me -children and parents standing side by side- that Darwin’s theory is as equally idiotic as Gore’s.

They said all this in euphoric rapture. I’ve seen it all over Alaska, NYC, and upstate NY. It’s scary.

The USA is becoming (or, has been in the making) a very, very frightening place of neo-conservative, blind-believers who have no qualms about brainwashing their children to “tow the line”. I actually hate being here now. These people are inescapable; they are everywhere.

Americans are ignorant, wasteful, and ignorant. I am a Freshman composition teacher. For the past 3 semesters, for our research paper (worth 40% of the grade), the topic was: Jihad.

Give a background of the foundation of Islam, a backrgrounder on the prophet Mohammed, how Islam spread, what Jihad means, and where it stands today. Each time, no more than 3 -3 MAX- out of a class of 25, had ever heard of the word Jihad. No more than 10 -MAX- had ever heard of Mohammed.

It’s an ignorant bunch growing up here; their parents are far worse, and the generation about to replace them is worse still.

Bad things in store for the States, that’s my opinion.

For those of you considering coming back, think again. The USA is a country that has totally lost its direction. The War in Iraq is in every way representative -right down to the latest IED explosion- of the collective soul of America today.

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Somebody certainly wasted their money on your MA degree.

An amazing trick to bite the hand that fed you from the position where your head is.

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Tainancowboy,

Why is that? Must I blindly support any policy under George W. Bush because the USA is supporting me financially? I’m guessing I somehow offended your Christian beliefs (cluster bombs)

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I agree with what you are saying, but I don’t think the epidemic has reached the levels you are talking about - yet. I think right now history has ebbed and flowed to a state where the conservative right has taken a prominent position - or I should say took. Because I think the majority of the country has begun the push to come back to a state of sensibility. Terrorism is what allowed the fanatics to take power, and luckily an absence of direct threat as of late puts them in a weak position to hold on to it.

I think you saw in the last elections a massive statement by Americans that things are not right. Even in Kansas, where the school systems opposed teaching evolution, things have been set right by people who actually think.

Your point is taken, though. People on the whole are stupid, unfortunately - Noam Chomsky frequently refers to the “stupid majority”. That’s a sad fact, one that has been very depressing to me lately in life. It wouldn’t be a problem if they didn’t also tend to push that stupidity on everyone else. Unfortunately that’s exactly what is happening, in the form you mention - a blurring of lines between church and state. Just unbelievable.

Did you read the story about the connecticut teacher sentenced to up to 40 years for a spyware program that put porn pop-up ads on her computer? Tits are evil in America. Pure evil.

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[quote=“necroflux”]… That’s a sad fact, one that has been very depressing to me lately in life. It wouldn’t be a problem if they didn’t also tend to push that stupidity on everyone else. Unfortunately that’s exactly what is happening, in the form you mention - a blurring of lines between church and state. Just unbelievable.

[/quote]

You might try taking a trip to Saudi Arabia or Iran to get a comparison of different types of religious involvements. Because “the church” -there are many different branches- really has no influence in the US government, but religious people do. Is that what you meant? You don’t agree with Puritanism? In that case, may I suggest a trip to the streets of Calcutta where 13-year-old girls are enslaved for prostitution (I saw the story on CNN). Just to get some perspective.

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I have no doubt things are just as bad and probably worse elsewhere in the world. That was never my point. Nor does the idea of 13 year old girls being prostituted in India, as terrible as that is, affect what I’m talking about in any way whatsoever. But thank you for that perspective. For that matter let’s all be thankful we aren’t being raped at this very moment. Okay, back to the discussion.

The government is made up of people, who tend to be influenced by people. I have no problem with religious people influencing the government, I’m not sure where you base the assumption that I do. My problem is when religious people influence the government to turn around and influence the entire country with policies that are religious in nature and have no place in politics in the first place.

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[quote=“Groo”][quote=“necroflux”]… That’s a sad fact, one that has been very depressing to me lately in life. It wouldn’t be a problem if they didn’t also tend to push that stupidity on everyone else. Unfortunately that’s exactly what is happening, in the form you mention - a blurring of lines between church and state. Just unbelievable.

[/quote]

You might try taking a trip to Saudi Arabia or Iran to get a comparison of different types of religious involvements. Because “the church” -there are many different branches- really has no influence in the US government, but religious people do. Is that what you meant? You don’t agree with Puritanism? In that case, may I suggest a trip to the streets of Calcutta where 13-year-old girls are enslaved for prostitution (I saw the story on CNN). Just to get some perspective.[/quote]

If I went into a hotel in Calcutta and it had no running hot water I would accept this as local standards. If I went to a place in America like this I would not accept it and no one would ever suggest that I just needed some perspective.

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If you claim it is an extreme case, then perspective is needed. Most of the USA is not very religious. Prayer and religious items are rarely allowed in schools, public and government places. Yes, the USA is Puritanical - most people believe sex should be kept very private.

If it’s being suggested that “the church” has started and is promoting the current war, then I’d be interested in seeing the video or writings from “the church” leaders telling people to go make war, because I haven’t seen this.

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[quote=“Alazaskan12”]
Americans are ignorant, wasteful, and ignorant… I am a Freshman composition teacher [/quote]

:laughing: Why are so many liberal academics on the East Coast such nattering nabobs of negativism?

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Sorry to blow your bubble, but in western countires 13-14 year old girls prostitute themselfs to get more money to buy dope or consumer goods …

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Is this a political thread ?

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Sorry to blow your bubble, but in western countires 13-14 year old girls prostitute themselfs to get more money to buy dope or consumer goods …[/quote]

To say nothing of Japan.

But Groo, you must be joking if you think the US is not a religious country. Look at every presidential race. Religion is a factor and every candidate must show his religious bona fides. This is simply not the case in other western countries.

Hmm. Typed in Jerry Falwell and Iraw War into Google and got this: God is Pro-War:
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a … E_ID=36859

And this:

[quote]Texas-based author and preacher Michael Evans is one of the most notorious American Christian fundamentalist preachers today, a passionate advocate of war in the name of Christ. In a recently published book, titled ‘Beyond Iraq: The Next Move-Ancient Prophecy and Modern-Day Conspiracy Collide’ (Whitestone Books, Florida, 2003), he spells out a grand design for American global hegemony, blessed in the guise of a holy global war. Key players in this ‘divine’ plot include the CIA, the American government and army, and Israel, besides various Christian fundamentalist outfits. The book is dedicated, among others, to what Evans describes as ‘two old friends’, Ehud Olmert, former Israeli Vice President, and the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. Equally revealingly, the book begins with a quotation which graces the lobby of the original headquarters of the CIA.

Evans is no petty crank who claims to be God-possessed, although his writings might seem to suggest that. The jacket of the book describes him as a ‘TIME magazine best-selling author’, who has appeared on the BBC and on American television channels and who has written for such papers as the Wall Street Journal and the Jerusalem Post. He hobnobs with the highest of American and Israeli politicians and religious leaders, and is evidently taken very seriously in Christian fundamentalist circles. That Evans is also a passionate Bush-backer is amply evident in his clam that, ‘I know, from a first hand, personal interview with him that Bush is a man of faith who believes in the Bible’. [/quote]

From the International Herald Tribune:

[quote]In the past several years, American evangelicals - and I am one of them - have amassed greater political power than at any time in our history. But at what cost to our witness and the integrity of our message?

Recently, I took a few days to reread the war sermons delivered by influential evangelical ministers during the lead up to the Iraq war.

In that period, from the fall of 2002 through the spring of 2003, many of the most respected voices in American evangelical circles blessed President George W. Bush’s war plans, even when doing so required them to recast Christian doctrine.

Charles Stanley, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Atlanta, whose weekly sermons are seen by millions of television viewers, led the charge with particular fervor. “We should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible,” said Stanley, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. “God battles with people who oppose him, who fight against him and his followers.”

In an article carried by the convention’s Baptist Press news service, a missionary wrote that “American foreign policy and military might have opened an opportunity for the Gospel in the land of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Both Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, and Marvin Olasky, the editor of the conservative World magazine and a former advisor to Bush on faith-based policy, echoed these sentiments, claiming that the American invasion of Iraq would create exciting new prospects for proselytizing Muslims.

Tim LaHaye, the co-author of the hugely popular “Left Behind” series, spoke of Iraq as “a focal point of end-time events,” whose special role in the earth’s final days will become clear after invasion, conquest and reconstruction. Jerry Falwell declared that “God is pro-war” in the title of an essay he wrote in 2004.

The war sermons rallied the evangelical congregations behind the invasion of Iraq. An astonishing 87 percent of all white evangelical Christians in the United States supported the president’s decision in April 2003.[/quote][/quote]

Honestly, man, have you been sleeping these past few years?

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Very good stuff, Mucha Man. In my mind, there is no difference between that second quote (“God battles with people who oppose him, who fight against him and his followers.”), and videos I’ve seen of Islamic religious leaders indoctrinating “God’s will” into the people of the middle east.

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[quote=“Muzha Man”]
But Groo, you must be joking if you think the US is not a religious country. Look at every presidential race. Religion is a factor and every candidate must show his religious bona fides. This is simply not the case in other western countries.

Honestly, man, have you been sleeping these past few years?[/quote]

Muzha Man, yes, I have been sleeping these past few years. I try to get 8 hours of sleep a day.

Thank you for finding those 3 Christian preachers that are pro war. I see now that religious people are definitely controlling that policy; although, I’m not sure how much influence they’re having over 300 million people since their party lost recent elections. If you want to find a better motive, you might read a little history.

I looked and I looked, but I couldn’t find where I stated the US is not a religious country. Please show me the quote. I did say most of the USA is not very religious. If you think the USA is extremely religious or that one religion controls the government then you need to travel around more (California, New York, Massachusetts, Oregon, Washington, etc) .

Your argument spun out of control like a North Korean rocket when you said other Western countries don’t care about religion during elections. What Western country doesn’t consider religion during elections? Canada has never elected a non-Christian prime minister. Great Britain only elects Protestant prime ministers. Germany biggest political party is called the Christian Democrats. Hmm. What Western country has elected a non-Christian?

There may be reasons to leave the USA, but religious extremism isn’t one of them.

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Well, I’m living in upstate NY, and I don’t know a single person who supports the war, “whole-heartedly” or otherwise. I do know folks who have relatives in the military who have been shipped over there, and obviously they want to be supportive to their relatives while they are deployed in trying conditions, but most people I know feel that the ultimate way of being supportive to relatives in the military would be to get the whole lot of them shipped back home.

There certainly are plenty of folks in the US who do support Bush 100% no matter what ridiculous statement he comes up with on any given day, but there are plenty of others who don’t. And frankly, if the analysis we’ve seen from the OP is a measure of how well his MA program stuck…

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Ironlady, I don’t know what you are trying to say in that last trailing statement. No clue.

What bothers me most in what I see happening is the blending of religion and politics on a family level. Parents shove their views down their children’s throats from a young age and the kids end up repeating their parents’ views almost word for word. And I have seen this happen -often- in upstate NY. I’d wager that I very high percentage of regular church-going Americans fully support the Iraq war, including all pretenses for invading. I’ve heard parents and kid alike explain away the lack of WMD almost verbatim.

Does that mean that the local priest is directing all this? Maybe not, but I’d be interested in attending mass somewhere nearby to hear what goes on. I’m probably not going to do that, though.

And, Big Fluffy Mathew, this thread is political in nature, yes, but it involves what a forumosan is dealing with in Greater Formosa and the strong desire to return to Formosa largely because of it. That’s why I posted it here.

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I recently argued with an entire family of Christians -father, 3 sons aged 11-21, and mother- for a couple of hours about the pretenses for invading Iraq. There was a conservative ideology ingrained in their perspectives that was guided by religion.

Now, they explained, was the time to nuke Iran. Nuke them. Turn Iran into a “sheet of glass” (as sand turns to glass when heated to a high temp, they explained).

All kinds of stuff like that. These aren’t random weirdos.

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[quote=“Groo”]
Thank you for finding those 3 Christian preachers that are pro war. I see now that religious people are definitely controlling that policy[/quote]

You asked for proof that religious leaders are promoting the war. I showed that many very influential leaders have. I can find a hundred more quotes like that. You’ve been proven wrong. Admit it and let’s go on.

If you didn’t say it fine. I have no problem with that. But to my eyes, “most of the US is not religous” and “the US is not a religious country” are close enough in a casual argument that you shouldn’t be a shit about me not getting your fine distinction.

Now you are putting words into my mouth that have not the slightest relationship to what I have said. You argue in bad faith.

And I make no claims that one religion controls government. I don’t think Alaskan does either.

[quote]
Your argument spun out of control like a North Korean rocket [/quote]

Oh please. :unamused:

I said: “Religion is a factor and every candidate must show his religious bona fides. This is simply not the case in other western countries.”

His “bona fides,” meaning his good faith or sincerity. You can’t prove this wrong by simply stating that other countries elect Christain leaders. These men and women hold innumerable qualities, some of which are of criticial importance to their constituents, some of which are not. In local Canadian elections religion plays more of a role than in federal. In federal politics it is pretty much irrelevant to most people if a leader holds his religion with much faith or sincerity. There is little of the “proving” that US candidates must do to show that religion is an important part of their life.

Many statistics show that around 1/3 of American are fundamentalist Christains. They hold enormous influence in politics and one of the reasons their party, Republican, lost in the last election is because Christains began to see that the their agenda was not being enacted after all. The Rovian strategy was to rally the base for elections, not necessarily to give it what it wanted afterwards. Hence token gestures toward banning gay marriage and abortion.

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[quote=“Muzha Man”]
Many statistics show that around 1/3 of American are fundamentalist Christains. They hold enormous influence in politics and one of the reasons their party, Republican, lost in the last election is because Christains began to see that the their agenda was not being enacted after all. The Rovian strategy was to rally the base for elections, not necessarily to give it what it wanted afterwards. Hence token gestures toward banning gay marriage and abortion.[/quote]

North Korean rocket! Look out here comes a wacky North Korean Rocket!

I have no idea what this discussion is about now. Rovian strategy? Banning gay marriage? Abortion? Fundamentalist Christians allowing the opposing party to win to get what they want?

I’m lost. Who is controlling US policy? Is Rove in charge or the 3 preachers? Who’s the wizard behind the curtain? DO NOT QUESTION THE WIZARD!

Again, for perspective, I suggest taking a trip to Iran or Saudi Arabia and try talking politics or religious freedom. Try going to India and talk about gay rights. Try wearing a burka in a French school. The US may have policies that you dislike (or despise with vitriol), but it is one of the most free societies religiously, economically, and politically. As mentioned, the OP had a heated talk about his views against Us policy with a family, without concern for his safety. There are places in the world, where you can not criticize the government. And being realistic, the US is a little too big to be controlled in the way you suggest by one or three men.

Should we start a debate on the pros and cons of religion in societies, or do you want to continue summarizing last weeks issue of Mother Jones?

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Actually, the wizard behind the curtain is a very good analogy for the role of religion in US politics. No need to go muddying the water with references to other countries and how religion is a force there, just name one recent US president that didn’t feel compelled to at least pander to religious biggotry. Thought so.

This isn’t a feature of the politics in other democracies like Australia, the UK, or Canada I suspect. We’ve had self-declared atheists running the show. I doubt they’d get a second look in the US.

To highlight that point, the Australian Federal Minister of Health is a rabid pro-life Christian, so Parliament took away his ability to knock back the roll out of the morning after pill. Sweet.

HG