Revisionist History - the rehabilitation of Joseph McCarthy

Politics International Politics
41

Actually, I think that you are confusing things a bit here. The ones who were imprisoned were the heads (actual in reality) of communist party organizations in the US during a time of war with the USSR (undeclared). Most were hardly put away for years. Many were investigated but failed to cooperate and thus suffered (Chaplain not allowed to return to the States, Seeger blacklisted). Those that lost their jobs often did so not because of the US government but because of their own companies. Should that also be laid at the door of the US government?

But let me just say if someone was going to have to suffer, it is highly ironic is it not that it occurred to those who supported communist systems and was this not poetic justice given their support for political regimes elsewhere that did far worse to their citizenry?

42

Bloody red raggers! Sigh.

Fred, I’m sure you know as well as I do that the vast majority of communists kicking around the “free world” at that time had little if anything in common with the state fascists running supposed comunist dictatorships anywhere.

HG

43

Just as little no doubt as the ones cheering on the insurgents, Saddam, the Iranians, the Taliban or al Qaeda do today. The idiocy of the left is not in question but the delicious irony of those who were actually calling for such a system to be established (otherwise has communism achieved a new definition of which I am unaware?) to suffer even minutely the effects of such a system while complaining most plantively and vociferously. Well… I guess it just goes to show that sometimes what goes around truly does come around? I am sorry. I know that innocent victims suffered but… for many of them, perhaps this was a good object lesson in that they should “be careful what they wished for?”

Love Fred

Signing off

44

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]
Please tell us what threat was posed to national security by musicians such as Artie Shaw, Aaron Copeland, Leonard Bernstein, Pete Seeger, actors such as Paul Robeson, Charlie Chaplin and Orson Welles, authors such as Arthur Miller, Langston Hughes and Dashniell Hammett, civil rights leaders such as WEB Dubois, and the like. [/quote]

A lot of the entertainers who complained about their civil liberties being violated during the 40s and 50s preached violence and were Soviet dupes. Communist Paul Robeson was seriously considered as a running mate for Henry A. Wallace under the Progressive Party banner in 1948 (the Singing Cowboy from Idaho, Senator Glen Taylor, was chosen instead). Robeson remained a die hard Stalinist, even after many entertainers stopped supporting Stalin. Frankly, anyone in the 40s or 50s who praised “Stalin’s deep humanity, wise understanding, and dedication to peace” and who said “from what I have already seen of the working of the Soviet government, I can say anyone who lifts his hand against it should be shot” deserved to have their passport taken away. End of story.

45

The fags too. And the feminists. And the atheists, agnostics and pagans. And the Jews. Take all their damn passports. And the liberals, the lefties, the peace protesters, environmentalists, civil rights agitators, Democrats and the card-carrying members of the ACLU, as well as those without cards. And the lawyers, don’t forget the lawyers. And the pimps, prostitutes, dealers, druggies and drunks. Take their passports and string 'em up high. And the teachers, of course, implanting crazy ideas in kid’s heads. And the whores, harlots and hos; don’t want no nappy-headed hos.

Hell, Travis Bickle had it right: “[The] whores, skunk pussies, buggers, queens, fairies, dopers, junkies, sick, venal. Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.”

46

[quote]The fags too. And the feminists. And the atheists, agnostics and pagans. And the Jews. Take all their damn passports. And the liberals, the lefties, the peace protesters, environmentalists, civil rights agitators, Democrats and the card-carrying members of the ACLU, as well as those without cards. And the lawyers, don’t forget the lawyers. And the pimps, prostitutes, dealers, druggies and drunks. Take their passports and string 'em up high. And the teachers, of course, implanting crazy ideas in kid’s heads. And the whores, harlots and hos; don’t want no nappy-headed hos.

Hell, Travis Bickle had it right: “[The] whores, skunk pussies, buggers, queens, fairies, dopers, junkies, sick, venal. Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.”[/quote]

I note that you have not replied to any of my earlier remarks. May I ask just what kind of persecution you think that the above suffered in America because of McCarthy? We have up to 12,000 who lost their jobs and not all because of McCarthy. Some companies chose to fire individuals or they chose to quit because of the connection with Communism real or imagined. Also, a few hundred were imprisoned for short periods of time. All of these people were directly involved in communist party leadership. Finally, you emotionally generate a list of those who are marginal in most societies. Shall we examine how such people fared under communist systems in Russia, Eastern Europe, China or Cuba? Or would that be naughty of me to bring up as it would expose your hypocrisy and your sham morality for the joke that it is? Again, if I am mistaken here or missing something regarding your positions, please feel free to take the time to explain. Your above statement is a list of no relevance to this discussion at best; at worst, it merely underlines the vast difference in treatment meted to these people by Western liberal democracies and the communist systems that you seem to sympathize with. Will you also crucify Western economists for the disastrous leadership they provided while praising the Five Year Plans of the USSR and China? North Korean social programs over the morally threadbare variety in Queens and Miami and LA? The failed educational systems of the US as opposed to the glowing success stories in Kampuchea? Vietnam? China? Soviet gulags? etc.? Please do let us know. I am ALL ears, ironically those ears are listening to Shostakovich now. I have no idea why I am into such atonal, clashing Russian drama. Must have developed a taste for it while reading the clashingly bad nonsense that passes for debate on this forum from the left.

47

[quote=“fred smith”][quote]The fags too. And the feminists. And the atheists, agnostics and pagans. And the Jews. Take all their damn passports. And the liberals, the lefties, the peace protesters, environmentalists, civil rights agitators, Democrats and the card-carrying members of the ACLU, as well as those without cards. And the lawyers, don’t forget the lawyers. And the pimps, prostitutes, dealers, druggies and drunks. Take their passports and string 'em up high. And the teachers, of course, implanting crazy ideas in kid’s heads. And the whores, harlots and hos; don’t want no nappy-headed hos.

Hell, Travis Bickle had it right: “[The] whores, skunk pussies, buggers, queens, fairies, dopers, junkies, sick, venal. Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.”[/quote]

I note that you have not replied to any of my earlier remarks.[/quote]

Nonsense. I’ve replied to most of them.

I thought we’d already discussed this and it’s abundantly clear. Here, read these:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Un-A … _Committee
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_blacklist
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

No, it wouldn’t be naughty. It would be irrelevant. This thread concerns whether Joe McCarthy was a slimebag – which we have all said we agree upon – and whether McCarthyism was a despicable low point in US history as almost all of us believe, or was totally justifiable and proper, as you, JAS and Ann Coulter apparently believe. This thread does not concern whether Stalin was a mass murderer. I doubt you could find anyone to disagree with that. Nor does it concern whether the US system of government is superior to other governments.

So, why don’t we just stick with the topic:

a. Was Joe a slimebag? Yes, we all agree.
b. Was McCarthyism wrong? Yes, apparently all agree except you and JAS.
c. Is the US system of government better than others? Irrelevant, OT, start another thread.

48

Apparently NOT.

I just cannot help but find it ironic though that so many of those who are loudest in their condemnation of McCarthy make no attempt to understand whether he looked good in tight swimming trunks or sexy smoking a pipe or Falwell, who may have looked intensely virile while pontificating about religion or masculinely manly man man man while pounding the pulpit (wink wink). Why is it that some deserve our “interest” into their manly virile sexy qualities while others do not?

Second, the irony of people who were either communist party members or sympathetic to the communist party in many cases having to plantively wail about their loss of rights while being investigated for their political beliefs is supremely amusing to me. Intensely funny. Uproarously the epitome of poetic justice. Am I the only one who sees this in all it glaring self-parody?

49

[quote=“fred smith”]I just cannot help but find it ironic though that so many of those who are loudest in their condemnation of McCarthy make no attempt to understand whether he looked good in tight swimming trunks or sexy smoking a pipe or Falwell, who may have looked intensely virile while pontificating about religion or masculinely manly man man man while pounding the pulpit (wink wink). Why is it that some deserve our “interest” into their manly virile sexy qualities while others do not?

. . . Am I the only one who sees this in all it glaring self-parody?[/quote]

Well no, I see it too, but I would have thought you’d scrub up a whole lot better in a pair of tights as J Edgar’s cross-dressing sidekick than McCarthy’s byatch, Roy Cohn.

HG

50

I do have nice legs don’t I?

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

51

A mere rhetorical question. You did not raise it though to distract from a more serious one, right?

Like: “How did McCarthey’s charades and antics make the U.S. look like at at that point of the Cold War?”

Phew! Lucky for McCarthey that he was not an entertainer, right?

52

It’s actually sad to see from this thread how little one gets back from their educational dollar these days. Obviously Fred doesn’t know anything about the McCarthy era or 20th century American history, but that’s never stopped him from spending page after page making excuses for how going after banjo players was the right way to protect us from the commies at a time when our own postwar economic boom and status as a nuclear superpower were plenty to keep us from emulating those suckers on the other side of the iron curtain stuck with their 2-hour lines to buy toilet paper…

Just put this thread into a file of “Fred’s Greatest Historical Guesses”, alongside such gems as:

  1. How the post-World War I British occupation of Iraq was such a fabulous “golden era” … despite the aforementioned “golden era” actually taking place several years after the Brits had exited;

  2. How the experiences of U.S. forces in Germany, Japan and South Korea have experienced an exact parallel of that of the troops in Iraq (imagining German, Japanese and South Korean insurrections that simply never existed);

  3. How port security had been locked down tight after 9-11, based on one corporate press release about one port; and

  4. More generally, how Bush has never made a wrong decision in his entire presidency …

In the end, you have a raging alcoholic slimeball using his “investigations” to chase after anyone and everyone who might have attended a meeting organized by anything even slightly socialist or communistic back in the Great Depression 1930s, anybody who might have known any of those people, anybody who might have dated any of those people… and so on. It was guilt by six degrees of separation, and the penalties meant the loss of freedom, the loss of livelihood (blacklisting, firings, etc.) and, under the inevitable pressures, harm to health and family/personal relationships.

Taking a shotgun approach to finding “commies” in America, McCarthy may have put a pellet or two into the wings of highly expendible old-school socialists but mostly he just scored big on destroying the careers and lives of persons with a tangential or non-existent association.

53

My, my, we are on a roll today… Don’t use it all up before the weekend! See you at the next happy hour! love Fred.

54

Sorry, this is an aside, but I noticed you’ve both changed your avatars. Coincidence?

Fred, I’d always assumed the guy in your old avatar was actually you - does this mean I was wrong?

And nice post, MFG. Your Jig-saw’s Mascot icon is appropriate for the slicing and dicing you did! :wink:

55

Jigsaw could run circles around the Republicans on his tricycle. Hard to imagine what “test” he would have in store for GOP leadership – probably requiring them to eat horseshit on pace with sick clydesdales standing over them.

56

If I want to know about MFGR’s slicing and dicing, I just read the National Enquirer. What’s the difference? Also, wouldn’t this slicing and dicing have to be predicated upon my actual support for Joe McCarthy and his policies? I have stated that I support neither. I merely remarked that I was curious at the level of outrage exhibited by some posters against McCarthy when they seemed to be okay with figures (communist ones) that were much more “successful” in achieving their “objectives” than McCarthy? Also, I merely remarked that I found it ironic that THOSE WHO SUPPORTED OR WERE SYMPATHETIC to Communist policies suffered the kind of political witch hunts for which communist regimes were then quite famous. Sue me for appreciating poetic justice. Sue me for wanting to understand why some posters find Che okay and want to understand how and why he looked so virile, so sexy in tight jeans but not for wanting to know why Falwell is such a stud in bed or why McCarthy could really keep it up. Isn’t consistency also something of great importance to these people? Why should we not ask for the same consistency in return? eh? But seriously, this HAS been fun. I just love discussing these kinds of moral points with these types of posters and then just trying to figure out how the feverish leftist mind works. And just when it is getting dull, we have MFGR riding to the rescue with his bons mots. Really, this is what makes it all worth while.

57

The National Enquirer has pictures of me slicing and dicing in Justin Timberlake’s new kitchen, that’s what! :slight_smile:

Then why keep insisting that the frontline against the commies was banjo-pickers? Our own economic and technological successes were what ultimately won the day, and even that was clear by the 1950s – a decade when knowledge of the Soviet gulag system helped ensure that we knew we were on the right side. McCarthy was dredging through the lists of 1930s meetings hoping to find people who had once voted for Eugene Debs, cared a smidgeon about what they’d read in Upton Sinclair novels, and who had reasons to be leery of how we treated workers in the 20s and 30s.

McCarthy is hated because he used highly un-American, fascist-style methods within our country. As to the “commies” he targeted, yes I’m sympathetic to the lives he tried to ruin who did nothing more than pick a banjo.

Well, some of those people were “famous” because they were talented. It’s not poetic justice to wish these directors, writers and singers harm --it’s just petty.

To tell the truth, I don’t want to know about any of them. Sue me for not wanting to know why you want to know why people want to know about the respective sexiness of Che, Falwell and McCarthy.

McCarthy’s idea of protecting us from the commie menace was to, essentially, turn our nation into something uncomfortably like what the Soviets had – a country of limited privacy in which men and women were not free to express their opinions and beliefs, a nation in which your friends, neighbors and coworkers would be encouraged to rat you out to the authorities for those personally held beliefs. It’s too bad that we’ve seen a strong streak of that in the current Bush administration, so perhaps that’s why so many have reacted so strongly here to McCarthy.

58

Justin Timberlake has a kitchen? Get out of town!

59

And new it shall stay… he hardly uses anything but the microwave.

60

:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

It’s great that you are chillin’ with the Malibu set. Wanna see what you can do to score me an invite? You could bring me as an endangered animal (they love that) as in a Republican and Bush supporter that will still admit to being such.