If you try to drive safely and keep a bit of distance to the guys in front of you, then the risks will decrease. OK people cut in in front of you, but well - nothing to do about that.
[quote=“Mordeth”]If you are driving behind a truck for example and visibility is limited. Then the truck quickly changes lanes…and the next thing you know you have a car replacing the truck but doing half the speed…and therefore seeming to “shoot” back at you. You can either brake hard…or do a quick lane change like the truck did to avoid this “slow driver”. I don’t believe slow drivers causing others to swerve is the fault of the “swerver” only.[/quote]If you’re driving behind a truck you have to be prepared for things happening that you can’t see in front of and to the sides of the truck.
I’m not saying that changing lanes rapidly is wrong, except if you don’t shoulder-check before you do it! I think a lot of swervers don’t bother to shoulder-check.
[quote=“MJB”]The problem on local roads is this…Do you overtake or let someone blow by you knowing full well he’ll most likely pick the most blind,dangerous spot possible?[/quote]My point was really about other drivers. If there’s somebody in front going fairly slow, I don’t get as frustrated as some other people seem to do. On the other hand, when I see someone driving at an inappropriately fast speed, it concerns me.
As regards the speeds we ourselves do, I think it is best to be flexible – within the limits of the law, of course. You’re right that there may well be situations when it’s better to overtake etc.
I know a number of foreigners (usually those who haven’t been here very long) who get the idea that they can “drive like the locals do”. (I put that phrase in quotes because obviously they’re thinking of the high-speed, flashy scooter riders rather than those who drive fairly sensibly). Unfortunately many of these foreigners have neither the riding skills nor the situational awareness to cope with higher speeds and weaving and so they get themselves into trouble.
People should drive well within their limits and in accordance with the road and weather conditions. And we can do our best to maintain safe distances between ourselves and vehicles in front, but there’s less that we can do about those behind.
MJB, are you serious? I’m no lawyer but that would surely have to be one of the easiest tickets to fight…EVER. I totally agree that slow drivers are dangerous but I can’t see a cop giving you a ticket if you’re doing the speed limit. I have to say, getting a ticket for driving too slowly while doing the posted speed limit would give me a five alarm case of road rage!
thebiggestnose -
Ley me give a BIG confirmation on the too slow for traffic ticketing in Cali.
I moved here from southern Cali, south of LA, and this is a very common trqffic violation. The freeways are desogned to move larhe volumes of vehicles are certain speeds. If a vehicle is too slow it creates unbelievable havoc with traffic flow. Not to mention grating everyones nerves who is trying to maintain a flow with the traffic mass.
Fortunate for me I rarely had to drive on the freeways, but for the majority of people its “Life on the 405” at its fullest.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]thebiggestnose -
Ley me give a BIG confirmation on the too slow for traffic ticketing in Cali.
I moved here from southern Cali, south of LA, and this is a very common trqffic violation. The freeways are desogned to move larhe volumes of vehicles are certain speeds. If a vehicle is too slow it creates unbelievable havoc with traffic flow. Not to mention grating everyones nerves who is trying to maintain a flow with the traffic mass.
Fortunate for me I rarely had to drive on the freeways, but for the majority of people its “Life on the 405” at its fullest.[/quote]
Yeah, I don’t doubt that you can get a ticket for driving too slowly for traffic, if you’re well below the posted speed limit. My question is, will you get that ticket if you’re driving the posted speed limit? And if so, how on earth could you fight that and not win?
That’s the beauty of driving in CA, as long as you are keeping up with the flow of traffic, the posted speed limit is theoretical at best…No matter what the limit, if you are driving slower than the pack you are an impedement and should be fined accordingly.
If traffic is moving well than 80mph average traffic speed is doable towards the outskirts of many LA freeways…
Almost as good as Montana… 
Joesax I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Slow drivers and lack of confidence/unskilled drivers are the major cause of accidents in every country. That is even more extreme here. You get such a variation here that they become an even bigger problem.
Slowing the flow or impeding traffic, on any road, causes road rage/frustration. When a driver gets frustrated they tend to go a bit overboard. They would not be in that situation if that slow person were not there. Simply put IF YOU CANNOT DRIVE, ARE TOO SCARED TO DRIVE OR ARE JUST A STUPID DRIVER THEN STAY OFF THE ROAD. Your inability causes problems which then lead to road rage.
It is NOT speed that kills. It is inability and slow unskilled driving that does.
A little road rage clears the head and let’s you get on with the day. You have the right too though if you’re a cyclist.
[quote=“Surf”]
It is NOT speed that kills. It is inability and slow unskilled driving that does.[/quote]
Er, correct me if I’m wrong but if you smack into another vehicle whilst travelling at 120kph, what are your chances of survival as opposed to if you hit the same vehicle at 40kph? Don’t tell me you actually think that drivers who go fast are more “skilled” than others? Yeah, of course slow, unskilled driving causes accidents but SO DOES speeding. No matter how “skilled” you are, if you’re travelling at a high speed and something unexpected happens (half-blind old bat randomly pulls out in front of you on a shitmobile while you are travelling well above the speed limit) you have far less reaction time, braking distance/effectiveness and the force of the impact is increased exponentially. I think far more FATAL accidents are caused by people speeding than unskilled people driving slowly. Now before you say “AHA! but it was the half-blind old bat that caused the accident! Therefore slow driving caused the accident!”, ask yourself, would the accident have been FATAL or caused serious injury had you not been speeding? Accidents are caused by people doing stupid things. Serious injuries and road fatalities are largely the result of high impact collisions (read “speeding”).
I knew his speed doesn’t kill comment would draw flames, but that was well written trapjaw.
For the most part speed doesn’t kill. IF, and this is a big IF…if everyone drove responsibly…then you could raise almost all speed limits by close to 50% without worrying. If people would just use their signals, check before changing lanes…etc.
When it comes to the whole speed kills thing I have to refer back to another one of my “studies” that I don’t have a link for…where they tested what would happen on different roads in America if they raised and lowered the speed limits for a year on different roads. The results were always the same…raise the speed limit = less accidents… lower the speed limit = more accidents. So why don’t they just raise all the speed limits? Because it would lower their revenue.
The reason the higher speed limit provided less accidents…is because you’re always going to have speeders and speeders do a speed that they feel is the “safest” possible…but if you raise the speed limit the difference between the speeders and the law biding citizens becomes less…and therefore safer.
So for example you have a road where the speed limit is 60, but with a little skill you could probably do 80 without any fear of loss of control. So the speeders naturally do 80 without regard to the speed limit. If you were to raise the speed limit to 70 then the difference between the speeders and non-speeders becomes less. If you were to lower it then chaos would ensue with a difference of 30km/hr between the speeders and non-speeders.
So in this instance again, it isn’t speed that kills…but the opposite.
Correct.
Usually not.
[quote]Yeah, of course slow, unskilled driving causes accidents but SO DOES speeding. No matter how “skilled” you are, if you’re travelling at a high speed and something unexpected happens (half-blind old bat randomly pulls out in front of you on a shitmobile while you are travelling well above the speed limit) you have far less reaction time, braking distance/effectiveness and the force of the impact is increased exponentially.
[/quote]
A good, skilled driver will be able to command the road, seeing all hazards well before s/he passes them, using all possible angles and positions on the road to make the optimum progress for that road.
The car would be well balanced with the use of smooth gear changes, smooth acceleration and smooth braking.
The blind old bat’s movements would be anticipated; and if the driver hadn’t seen the daft old bat, the daft old bat would have been anticipated.
Far more fatal accidents are caused by not being able to control a vehicle properly, driving too fast for the conditions and not concentrating. There is a difference between driving at a speed which is innapropriate to the road and driving at excessive speed.
You could drive at 200 on a motorway, but as all the cars are going at roughly the same speed and in the same direction, the chances of a fatal collision are minimal.
Contrary top popular belief, accidents caused by excessive speed only account for 15% or so of total fatalities (in the UK at least). Inconsiderate, dangerous and stupid driving or just being a general spoon on the road causes far more accidents.
Tiredness causes about 30% alone.
Consider driving too slowly on a Taiwanese road. If a driver is driving like a snail, everyone behind - trucks, busses, forklift trucks - everyone - is itching for their chance to get past. Corners are fair game, as are villages and crowded streets. The chances of a head on collision or other accident because of the frustration caused to other drivers is far greater than wiping out an old biddy if you are travelling 20 over the limit.
Would Fork lifts fit under this category?
This is Taiwan.
What do you suggest we do about cyclists and slow-moving road maintenance vehicles? If I understand you correctly you are saying that these vehicles are the things that cause frustration and accidents, not the drivers who get frustrated.
What do you suggest that people who have recently passed their tests do? As they are “unskilled” and may lack confidence I presume you are suggesting that they should not be allowed on the road, or should be forced to drive at speeds beyond their skill levels. Dangermouse is quite right about defensive driving/riding but it takes time to develop this.
Dangermouse also makes a good point about slow drivers prompting those behind to overtake on blind corners. But what about the many idiots who, driving too fast for the road conditions on twisty mountain roads, try to overtake everyone in front of them? Here it is not a case of “keeping up with the flow” and bears very little resemblance to California freeways.
This could easily turn into one of those pointless internet discussions. Surely nobody disagrees that one should drive/ride within one’s ability and at a speed suited to the road conditions? And people are of course welcome to feel what they want to feel when they encounter inappropriately slow drivers, but I prefer to keep my cool and pass when/if safe. I still feel that inappropriately slow is probably safer than inappropriately fast, but neither of them is good and of course I’m not recommending for anyone here to drive inappropriately anything!
I think the word “inappropriately” is the key here and innapropriately fast is far more lethal than inappropriately slow.
Looking at the argument here, I have to agree with both views that:
- People shouldn’t drive faster than the road conditions safely allow.
- Slowpoke drivers contribute to accidents by (unintentionally) provoking the faster ones into reckless manoevers to overtake.
Both are wrong. I think it’s interesting that when polled, something like 60% of American drivers claimed to possess better than average driving skills. If the poll sample were large enough this would be patently impossible.
Solutions:
Stiffer penalties on those who cause accidents when driving at speeds above what road conditions allow, overtaking on blind corners, crossing double yellow lines etc.
New license holders should have to have n00b plates or signs on their cars. I for one will slow up and give space to those who do have the little stickers in the window that read ‘Sorry, new driver at the wheel’. Maybe a publicity campaign needs to go along with this to remove some social stigma and raise awareness among other drivers.
Encourage new drivers to be more aware of the queues behind them and their personal responsibility to keep the traffic flowing. IOW, they should pull over to let the convoy past them when it’s safe to do so rather than let them wait until the end of their patience.
The driving test needs to moved off of the closed course and onto real roads. Driving in pretty circles through a marked course in no way prepares the n00b driver for battle. It’s glaringly obvious that the current system fails to create competent or confident drivers.
Student drivers need to be taught that the throttle offers more resolution than a light switch, there are other settings between ‘full on’ and ‘full off’.
Oh yeah, we’re in Taiwan. Forget all about option #1, never gonna happen.
Because they don’t have a slow lane or a fast lane on the freeway, I just try to go with the flow, see which is moving fastest, and try to change lanes as seldom as possible. If someones behind me, I don’t worry about it because I’m eiter going faster than the other slowpokes or, if possible, doing the speedlimit. (And maybe a tiny bit more.)
If I was one of those people who never approached the speedlimit even when I could, I don’t know what I would do. I guess I would just sit home cutting paper dolls and wondering what it would be like to have functioning testicles.
I agree with what Hsiadogah wrote above. Notice the way he phrases this;
[quote=“hsiadogah”]New license holders should have to have n00b plates or signs on their cars. I for one will slow up and give space to those who do have the little stickers in the window that read ‘Sorry, new driver at the wheel’. Maybe a publicity campaign needs to go along with this to remove some social stigma and raise awareness among other drivers.[/quote]There is a system like this in the UK. I think it helps. I don’t know whether it is official yet.
I was going to ask Dangermouse the following question;
“You have seen the aftermath of a lot of accidents. Of those accidents in which either inappropriately fast or inappropriately slow driving was a factor, which category had more fatalities and serious injuries?”
He answered this before I had the chance to ask the question;[quote=“Dangermouse”]I think the word “inappropriately” is the key here and innapropriately fast is far more lethal than inappropriately slow.[/quote]
Dangermouse, as quite a few people have mentioned freeways, I think it is worth asking you this. Concerning my question above, was the ratio of serious accidents involving too fast/too slow driving different between motorways and other roads?
“A,” “B” and “country” roads have the highest amount amount of casualties per year - all of them far more than motorways.
Dual carriagewyas also have high casualty rates as sometimes other roads simply form a “T” junction with them instead of having a slip road.
Motorways always have slip roads which merge traffic onto them at the same speed as the flowing traffic. Motorways are classified as the safest roads in Britain per mile - they have a central reservation with protective tension wire to stop cars coming from the opposite direction ploughing into each other. All traffic flows the same way.
Serious carnage can occur with pile-ups, usually a result of fog. The main cause of death linked to driving on the motorway is falling asleep at the wheel. The main cause of accidents on the motorway is following too closely behind other cars.
“A” and “B” roads require particular skill because they are often particularly windy and don’t have a central reservation (Unless it’s a dual carriageway). Many of them are classed at the speed limit which is 60mph for single and 70mph for dual lanes. Many of them pass through farm land which often sees mud on the road as well as other hazards - Animals, cyclists, sunday drivers in trilby hats, stones, gravel and hidden/obscured signage. Most of the UK is rural, and most of the accidents happen on unlit rural roads.
“P” plates, or noob plates are not mandatory in the UK, but many people use them out of courtesy.
“L” plates or Learner plates are mandatory and need to be placed on a car if the driver only has a provisional licence.
Thank you for the info, DM.
You put your finger on the crucial difference between motorways/freeways and other roads. The traffic goes in the same direction and slip roads are used.
Of course a safe braking distance should be maintained between oneself and the vehicle in front and this is related to speed. You said that the main cause of accidents (though not fatalities) on motorways is not maintaining safe braking distance. You also mentioned fog. One should not have a braking distance farther than one can see!
But you confirmed what I suspected; that motorways are safer. So arguments derived from the safety of motorways/freeways should not be overgeneralized to include all roads.
As you mentioned, there are all sorts of hazards on UK country roads (your trilby hat comment made me laugh!) and of course the hazards are all the greater here.
[quote=“Dangermouse”]“P” plates, or noob plates are not mandatory in the UK, but many people use them out of courtesy.
“L” plates or Learner plates are mandatory and need to be placed on a car if the driver only has a provisional licence.[/quote]I was a newly-qualified driver 13 years ago. I think I should have been forced to use “T” plates (testosterone-infused, over-confident young male at the wheel). Luckily I didn’t get into any serious scrapes and I have since become a lot more sensible – most of the time.